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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Menthol.Love - Anton - A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - Andriejj - Attin - BD Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Balance Issues Antworten: 12 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Onmyoji... LOGICAL Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 11 Monaten, 28 Tagen, 18 Stunden, 5 Minuten
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Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Menthol.Love - 30.04.2007, 06:40Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Is it just me or has Onmyoji been nerfed to the point he's unplayable? Everyone who plays him has switched to warlord (actually, everyone. ALL want to warlord. Creeps me out. >_<).
Fujins breath is NOT over powered... It's so remarkably easy to dodge that you never do more than 30 damage. If someone nets and then they fujin? Good job, you just did the same amount of damage that a Ninja and Ronin are going to do anyway. I think I know why the few who complain about Onmy complain about him...:
He's the counter for Ronin. Onmyoji and his Shiki, not to mention other skills, are a great conter to Ronin, and seeing how 95% of the players that complain about Onmyoji are ronin players... it makes sense. It'd be the same as me complaining about a Ninja as a Yumi (since the good Ninja players have no problem soloing a Yumi.)
It's to the point where no one plays Onmyoji at ALL. He hasn't been played in the last 100 games I've done or so. That doesn't include pubs, however, just people who know what they're doing. Something is wrong with that, and we need to fix it. Possibly re-work skills to suite everyone, or possibly just bring him back to where he was a few versions ago.
Comments (but not flaming) are welcome. Please keep flames on the threads that are already ruined by flaming.
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Anton - 30.04.2007, 06:58
ok i will start a little of the topic seaming you got away from your self :P
as a good yumi player i love to lane against a ninja(good or otherwise), it is a challenge and if they screw up they are often dead cos of there frail ness.
but back to omni. the skill set does not seem to have a 'job' in sl at the moment, thats why most ppl don't like her, the other hero that don't have a specific job can do everything just not very well, eg lane, hero kill or sedge(most other heroes are able to do one of these really well and 1 ok ish). om cant do all three and is only a average laneing hero. this makes her difficult to use in any really usefully way, whist she can do allot of damage she is unable to do much by her self, hence disliked by most, if used with team work she can devastate (do lots of damage) but not really by herself. so yea thats how i see omni at the moment.
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 30.04.2007, 07:11
all i have to say is that onmy is one of my favorite characters to play. it breaks my heart that she was taken out of legacy but then again i can always play her in the original.
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Menthol.Love - 30.04.2007, 07:16
Onmyoji is a team based hero, in my opinion. Seeing as I've seen quite a few REALLY GOOD Onmyoji's. What Onmyoji's main role is is simply: Support. Do minor damage in nukes (they're so easily dodged that it's rather low damage). Onmyoji is hands down (well was) the strongest hero early game and late game the weakest. It takes LOADS of skill to play an Onmy right, and that's why I feel that the majority of the people who complain about him don't like him. He-IS-hard to use. He's frail, his moves are hard to land (Frost lance isn't THAT hard to land... but Fujin without another hero to help you ISN'T HAPPENING.), and he relies on having a hero to help him get the kill. BUT THAT'S WHAT SL IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.
Onmy can do it all, but can't do it all better than the ones ment to do that one thing, and one thing alone. He can push (frostlance > Creeps), he can seige, he can hero kill, he can do it ALL. But do to all these nerfs... he just can't do it good enough.
Possibly... remove the aura. It's pretty pointless, really. I don't really know WHAT to suggest for it... how about some suggestions people? ^_^
And as for going against a ninja... OH HELL YES! Going against a good ninja (Robo to be specific) is remarkably fun... because you have to stay alert, trapping constantly, making sure to have strafe ready... So fun. >_<
And btw, I believe that Onmyoji is a male, not female. I may be wrong, but he sure seems like one, and I've thought him to be a male this whole time.
=====edit=======
Got some ideas just now, looking and re-reading his original introduction.
Look back at something that was suggested:
Attack speed going down greatly while giving you a mana aura (unless I'm mistaken). This idea is BRILLIANT. Have it give some sort of negitive buff, BUT increase your mana regen GREATly. Not just a .5% regen or something... but GREATly.
Keep shiki.
Also, Onmyoji was originally ment to be a massive nuker... why isn't he?
Food for thought =o
Also, the meathook like pudge idea should be remembered.
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Andriejj - 30.04.2007, 08:03
REMOVE AURA?! It's the most important skill. Along with the improved mana regenerating mask(you do it in the south-east corner, you make a very good ring) she(he?) has unlimited mana. Other heroes have to save mana for duels, SHE/HE DOESN'T.
I would rather remove the third skill- it's really hard to use. A ninja can cloak and then net you- you can do nothing then, wait for the net to disappear. Maybe this skill would be better? It would work like that:
Some mana cost(100 or 75). Duration- extremely long.
Self-buff spell.
Somekind of spell-shield. Gives 50% chance to neutralise a spell. After doing it, it expires- you have to cast it again.
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 30.04.2007, 08:08
"the third spell" also known as shikigami is easily one of the best skills in the game. It is a short spell immune duration which can get you out of the net. and if an aoe spell lands on u during that duration, guess what NO DAMAGE YAY!!!!
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Attin - 30.04.2007, 09:01
Onmyoji's Shikigami is all good, hes hard to kill if you are Ronin, when you jump on him -> He uses Shikigami. When you catch him and are about to use Kaze -> He uses Skikigami and escapes... its all ok, but annoying sometimes...
The Fujins breath is easily dodgeable, but if you get him by it, the Onmyoji player usually includes a nice icespear with it too... and turns on the negative mana aura :evil:
But that is all ok too...
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Menthol.Love - 30.04.2007, 11:59
Oh yeah, leave shiki alone! Like it alot, and the spell suggested by attin doesn't seem to be "skill based". Which is really what SL is shooting for. Though I do LOVE the idea, I can just see some of the SL fan boys screaming "LAWLZ DAT TAKE NO SKILLZZZ!!!11ONE"
Aura isn't quite the walking fountain.. and who needs one when you have mana pots? Mana pots make the aura over all useless. And what I'm taking at is the fact that the heros original description was "Heavy Nuker"
He's got one nuke and his ult. One of which is impossible to land, and the other that really doesn't do jack shit (excuse language) after the first 5 minutes of the game.
I'm sorry, but an ult shouldn't do 30 damage on average. >_>
As for mentioning that.... How about that hook ability becoming his ult? Give it a somewhat VERY low cooldown, maybe like 30 seconds. It won't do much DAMAGE, but would be great for possitioning people, and preventing them from escape. That ability ALONE would make him a popular choice. It would grab ANY unit it hit, however, making it a very skill based move. It would even have multiple options, one being to sit there and hook your own creeps.. and have them build up. Creating an army of creeps (though doing this reduces the push power you have, so you wouldn't be able to build up many).
Btw, reason it would do this is because it would offset the movement and whatnot, should work that way, I believe, most maps do, and I believe SL is one. I did try to hold the creeps back and release them into one massive creep push one time with some mercs holding them back, when I moved the mercs so they'd release.... Nada. They stayed there. *cry*
But yeah, keep the comments and ideas coming, hopefully we get something good enough that nooK will slap his forehead and wonder why he didn't think of it ^_^
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Attin - 30.04.2007, 12:17
Menthol.Love wrote: Oh yeah, leave shiki alone! Like it alot, and the spell suggested by attin doesn't seem to be "skill based". Which is really what SL is shooting for. Though I do LOVE the idea, I can just see some of the SL fan boys screaming "LAWLZ DAT TAKE NO SKILLZZZ!!!11ONE"
ummm... lol i didnt suggest anything... i just said that the Onmyoji usually throws a ice spear at you after he casts Fujin's Breath :o
i just meant how well Onmyoji can counter Ronin's attacks...
actually i might say that i like Fujin's breath :oops:
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Menthol.Love - 30.04.2007, 18:58
Oh we all like Fujin. But you have to look WHY we like it?
A: It's an ultimate, wc3 players are always attracted to the fact that it's ZOMG ULTIMATE.
B: It's actually a difficult task to land
C: Come on... It's a big mothafrakking ball of ICE!
D: Because there is that 1% chance we will do more than 100 damage, and when you DO do more t han 100 damage... you do A HELL OF ALOT!
E: Because it pisses all the Anti-Onmy people off to kill them with the one hero they hate the most.
The list goes on. As you can see... it's a pattern, for the most part. We like it because of one reason. It's a big fraking ball of ice that hurts if they don't get out of the way.
Case closed.
I don't want to see Fujin go more than the next fella, LOVE the animation, but let's face it... Onmyoji NEEDS a rework or something. If he keeps getting nerfed to implayability.... then let's make him playable. COME ON BOYS AND GIRLS! Keep the ideas coming.
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
BD - 30.04.2007, 19:17
fujin imo dosnt seem to be overall to weak. I will say im not an avid omny fan, but i do play him on occasion. mayb fujin culd get a buff to its slow so it is harder to get out of it within the 1st sec of casting. Or mayb u culd give it a VERY small but staking slow per icecicle like 5% slow per icicle that hits u. Just giving some ideas
In retrospect i see that the 5% slow might b a little to little seein as it already is a problem that the person has ample time to escape fujin. make it 10 :D
also have u looked at the fact taht none of omny's skills synergize real well. I mean u get a a damage nuke thats only contribution is when u actualy land fujin. U get his passive that jus regens mana(it does support his two nukes a lil) and u get his odd ball shiki. Shiki doesnt realy contribute to any of the skills however it does give the omny a good bit of greater survivability vs skillcasters. Point blank i only see two synergies in omny's skillset as a whole right now and 1 is very static like(as in it would work for any hero) He has the slow in fujin that helps land frost lance(fujin takes skill to land in the first place tho :( ) and he has his mana regen/- regen passive that basicaly helps him cast his skills more. Im not sayin that omny as a whole is a very bad char but if u look at his synergies vs almos all other chars there is obviously very few.
list:
Nin ww/shuri, net/shuri, net/shuri/dagers, ww/net/shuri/dagers
Yumi mt/RoA, mt/strafe, passive/roa(siege ulti wit a long range, then peper towers wit arrows from a range that usualy only can b hit by 1 tower if upgraded fully)
Yari br/whirl Br/oni
WL Ftsg/banner(admitidly a lil underpowered in legacies vers) teppo/drag souls,
Ron FD/kaze(and sometimes other way around), airy/kaze/fd
Shin passive/fotd omf/passive/fotd(ton of mele damage, adn not taking any in return), spikes(omg i forgot the name lol >.<)/fotd, omf/spikes/fotd
no dachi n/a ( i dont wanna list for him as his skills may complement each other but for the most part its RD/any thing)
Raiko Hogosha havnt played with him enuf for clear info
If you look at it most have atleast 3 basic combos that have meshing efectiveness. Those that only have 2 have 2 very strong combos(a br yari taht is siegeing can go thru the br crash and be back ready to siege quikly) I guess u culd say part of this is because the flimsyness of omny's role. He is a nuker however a nin by himself culd prolly do near the same or mayb out damage the omny in most situations(mayb this is a bad comparison)
Ok a ron culd airykaze a unit for a at most 300+70(correct the numbers if im rong) damage, then proceed to fd for another 250(again correct me if im rong) damage then mele him for 2 secs(lets say he has a 80 avg damage fighting 40% damage mitigation from armor) 80x2(mayb even more for slower react times) is gon equal a total of 96-144 damage, add all this up for a grand total of 764 damage in lets say a 6-10 sec time frame. The omny on average will run past his target first(optimal targeting for fujin) then he casts fujin saying the oponent has enuf comon sense that he gets out within the first 2 secs of being in it ull do around(VERY RUFF ESTIMATE) 200-400 damage(again im not a expert on numbers or omny so plz dont flame) then ull proceed to do a frost lance for 250-300(iont kno the numbers) damage ull inflict around 575 over a lets say 4 sec time period. I believe that the omny will outdamage the ron on a per sec damage basis(not counting the positioning because thats variable). Meriting him the name of nuker for now...
Lets put him up against the WL now same scenario, the WL uses his teppo to quikly position and fire a drag soul thats 700(i think its 775 direct damage in this, sry to much legacy) this is all over about the same time period as the omny. Now of course u might not hit with the drag souls all the time but its hella lot more reliable then fujin(unless ur a master (winks at ed)) Also the wl has the ability to siege beter than the omny, has higher mele atk, faster ms(i think), and a higher hp pool.
Also as it pains me to say it knot is right >.< his role is seriously jus tacked on to so that no one will call him the "gimp char" of the game.(which some still do) think of it "heavy nuker" so hes the BIG damage dealer of the game, his skills cant be outdamaged by any. However that only applies if ur directly hit by fujin and fail to have an escape mech. I wouldnt call wl a nuker but his main nuke is beter then omny's and it synergizes with his ulti. IM sorry but if ur gon call the omny a "nuker" we could basicaly call the ninja and wl nukers to because they both have 2 high damage skills and beter control over how to deal that high an amount of damage. Mayb a redisign isnt a bad option(im lookin forward to the sll version of omny as well as dachi who seriously needs a rework but thats another topic) His role is eclipsed by so many heros in sl. that it makes it futile to pick him over most other heros most the time unless ur a.) a master omny player(which ive seen very few), or b.) playin a pubstomp wit friends and just wanna mess around. Right now theres no way that i would advise my teamates to pick (facing decent players) the omny over WL, nin, ron...etc there roles are just to important to any good battle. i kno that if you want to u can make him a hybrid type nuker or sumtin. it works for shin whos basicaly the next best thing to a yari and can position enemies well for many of the nukes(fujin not included). Im sry if this became a rant but ideas just flowed thru my head. Point blank it would proly b best to either redisign omny's role, add some utility to some of his powers so they synergize beter, or mayb even remove and replace some powers if it is realy needed. sry for the very long post(still regreting agreeing with knot but when sum1s right hes right >.<)
Just my 20000 cents worth
BD
Re: Onmyoji... LOGICAL
Menthol.Love - 30.04.2007, 19:25
" im not an avid omny fan"_BD
See? He's unpopular because he's nothing special, as I said in the first post. I'm affraid that if we buff him back, people will just complain again. People who complain about things just to complain will always exist, but I'm sure some of us are tired of it. That's the problem. Fujin, itself, was fine a few versions ago. Though now... it's too insanly weak.
"Oh but you can net! Then Fujin!" Yes... you can net... then fd... then kaze... then dagger.. then shuriken... then shadow... then teppo... then do all sorts of things. And that's called teamwork, my friends, which SL is all about. Don't complain about people USING teamwork.
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