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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: tegeus-Cromis - Kouenzan - Anonymous - nooK - Galefury - Forbidden - Fiuri - Lyncor - Viziroth - Lord.DarthVader - Omerta - Stiffleg Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Ideas Antworten: 73 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Hero: Onmyoji Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 3 Monaten, 16 Tagen, 18 Stunden, 43 Minuten
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Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 29.05.2006, 18:16Hero: Onmyoji
Onmyoji
(Suggested voiceset: Lich, Farseer or Spellbreaker)
Role: Heavy nuker
Attack range: 500
Starting damage: 34 - 41 (82 - 89 at level 20)
Starting HP: 400 (1225 at level 20)
Starting MP: 345 (1110 at level 20)
Move speed: Below average (on par with the Yumi)
Strength: 13 + 1.52 per level (46 at level 20)
Agility: 13 + 1.1 per level (34 at level 20)
Intelligence (Primary Attribute): 27 + 2.52 per level (75 at level 20)
Skill 1: Chill Wind
Type: Single-target, channeling disable
Using powers granted by the wind god Fujin, the Onmyoji conjures an icy gale that blows the target toward or away from him, dealing 10 damage every 0.5 seconds. Channelling.
'All freezes again--
among the pines, winds whispering
a prayer.'
(Has two separate buttons that share a cooldown.)
Chill Wind (W)
Level 1 - 400 range, 2.5 second duration
Level 2 - 475 range, 3 second duration
Level 3 - 550 range, 3.5 second duration
Level 4 - 625 range, 4 secound duration
Level 5 - 700 range, 4.5 second duration
Chill Wind (E)
Level 1 - 100 range, 2 second duration
Level 2 - 125 range, 2.5 second duration
Level 3 - 150 range, 3 second duration
Level 4 - 175 range, 3.5 secound duration
Level 5 - 200 range, 4 second duration
Skill 2: Ice Shards (R)
Type: Self-buff, slow
The Onmyoji hurls a number of damaging icicles at his enemies in quick succession, each slowing the target by 7% for 5 seconds. The slow from icicles that hit the same target is cumulative.
Level 1 - Next 3 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 25 damage each.
Level 2 - Next 4 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 30 damage and slowing by 7% each. Attack speed is increased by 100% until the 4 attacks are made.
Level 3 - Next 5 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 35 damage and slowing by 7% each. Attack speed is increased by 200% until the 5 attacks are made.
Level 4 - Next 6 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 40 damage and slowing by 7% each. Attack speed is increased by 300% until the 6 attacks are made.
Level 5 - Next 7 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 45 damage and slowing by 7% each. Attack speed is increased by 400% until the 7 attacks are made.
Skill 3: Shikigami
Type: Defensive/regen-boosting passive
The Onmyoji summons a swarm of lesser frost spirits which will then follow him wherever he goes, increasing his mana regen and having a chance to freeze the weapons of his attackers in place for 0.3 seconds.
'Frost on grass:
a fleeting form
that is, and is not!''
Level 1 - 25% bonus mana regeneration, 8% chance
Level 2 - 50% bonus mana regeneration, 11% chance
Level 3 - 75% bonus mana regeneration, 14% chance
Level 4 - 100% bonus mana regeneration, 17% chance
Level 5 - 125% bonus mana regeneration, 20% chance
Ultimate: Fujin's Breath (T)
Type: Extreme-damage, difficult-to-land nuke
Calling on the deadliest frost magics of the onmyodo art, the Onmyoji hurls a mass of ice crystals at his opponent. The cloud travels slowly and can be destroyed by ranged attacks and spells. Minimum casting range of 250.
'Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.'
Level 1 - Projectile has 100 HP and deals 240 damage on impact with the target. 60 damage per second to all enemies it touches. 32% of the Onmyoji's total mana pool will drain away after casting.
Level 2 - Projectile has 150 HP and deals 330 damage on impact with the target. 70 damage per second to all enemies it touches. 34% of the Onmyoji's total mana pool will drain away after casting.
Level 3 - Projectile has 200 HP and deals 420 damage on impact with the target. 80 damage per second to all enemies it touches. 36% of the Onmyoji's total mana pool will drain away after casting.
Level 4 - Projectile has 250 HP and deals 510 damage on impact with the target. 90 damage per second to all enemies it touches. 38% of the Onmyoji's total mana pool will drain away after casting.
Level 5 - Projectile has 300 HP and deals 600 damage on impact with the target. 100 damage per second to all enemies it touches. 40% of the Onmyoji's total mana pool will drain away after casting.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Kouenzan - 30.05.2006, 12:02
woooh, icy-theme :) (just like nook wanted it to :P)
first skill works like nevermore's shadowraze?
great hero, lots of combos can be done. slow-er, he's great at supporting also great at team play. No glaive-themed skill? :P
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 16:34
Quote: first skill works like nevermore's shadowraze?
Not really. Shadowraze is three separate skills with three separate cooldowns; this one shares the same cooldown between both skills. It's basically just one nuke that either pushes or pulls.
Quote: great hero, lots of combos can be done.
I hope so. The obvious one is Chill Wind (pull), Ice Shards, Fujin's Breath, but the more surefire way is Fujin's Breath, Chill Wind (pull), Ice Shards, hit hit hit. You'll need a lot of mana for this, though, since Fujin's Breath drains a percentage of your mana after its cast.
Sadly (for me, heh) all this is moot, since nooK has stated that he already has an ulti in mind. Though I still hope Chill Wind makes it in; it would work just as well with Frozen Orb.
Quote: No glaive-themed skill?
Never ever, and I really really hope I can convince nooK not to include one. It is just so cliche, almost obligatory, for glaive-equipped heroes to be able to learn a bouncing attack, and I think SL is (or should be) better than that. You don't give every hero with a fiery-looking attack a splash damage skill, or every hero with a magical-looking attack mana burn, or every hero with a sword critical strike; why should using a glaive projectile model mean you have to give a bouncing attack to a guy who is really meant to be a mage? I don't get it.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Anonymous - 30.05.2006, 17:02
oh not that kind of glaive-bouncing, just giving a nice flavor on a custom-model-missile but it may not be that necessary. oh well, everything is nice :lol:
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Kouenzan - 31.05.2006, 14:47
oh sorry, i forgot to log-in!! :P
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 31.05.2006, 18:56
Quote: Never ever, and I really really hope I can convince nooK not to include one. It is just so cliche, almost obligatory, for glaive-equipped heroes to be able to learn a bouncing attack, and I think SL is (or should be) better than that. You don't give every hero with a fiery-looking attack a splash damage skill, or every hero with a magical-looking attack mana burn, or every hero with a sword critical strike; why should using a glaive projectile model mean you have to give a bouncing attack to a guy who is really meant to be a mage? I don't get it.
Yes maybe its cliche and just because he is a mage doesn´t mean he can`t have a bouncing skill.
Nevertheless I made no descision on this yet, we`ll see (<- I often use this words in the last time ;) ).
About Chill Wind:
For me it seems to strong that a hero can pull AND push enemies (regardless of damage, distance or cooldowns).
I think I will only implement one of them not both.
About Ice Shards:
Seems interesting too, maybe I have to remove or minimize the slow of the ultimate (units hit by the ultimate are slowed actually).
Great hero again :)
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 31.05.2006, 19:50
Quote: Yes maybe its cliche and just because he is a mage doesn´t mean he can`t have a bouncing skill.
That's true, but the question that bugs me is, why should he have a bouncing skill? I'm sure you could think of a more interesting (and thematic) passive to give him.
Quote: About Chill Wind:
For me it seems to strong that a hero can pull AND push enemies (regardless of damage, distance or cooldowns).
I think I will only implement one of them not both.
You're probably right. :shock: I guess it would be too much of an all-purpose skill then.
I would suggest going for the pull instead of a push. Now that I think of it, having both a knockback skill and slow might make him a bit too much of an escape artist. He should be a little vulnerable, I think.
Quote: About Ice Shards:
Seems interesting too, maybe I have to remove or minimize the slow of the ultimate (units hit by the ultimate are slowed actually).
How about reducing the slow on Ice Shards instead, and having the icicles that shoot out of Frozen Orb work just like the icicles from Ice Shard? (The explosion from the Orb itself would have no slow.) Like so:
Skill 2: Ice Shards (R)
Type: Self-buff, slow
The Onmyoji hurls a number of damaging icicles at his enemies in quick succession, each slowing the target by 5% for 5 seconds. The slow from icicles that hit the same target is cumulative.
Level 1 - Next 3 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 25 damage each.
Level 2 - Next 4 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 30 damage each. Attack speed is increased by 100% until the 4 attacks are made.
Level 3 - Next 5 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 35 damage each. Attack speed is increased by 200% until the 5 attacks are made.
Level 4 - Next 6 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 40 damage each. Attack speed is increased by 300% until the 6 attacks are made.
Level 5 - Next 7 attacks are replaced by icicles dealing 45 damage each. Attack speed is increased by 400% until the 7 attacks are made.
So ordinarily, level 5 would get you a modest 35% slow. If you cast Frozen Orb after and 5 icicles from that hit your opponent, he would now be under 60% slow. Does that sound reasonable to you? Of course the exact % slow would have to be tweaked based on how many icicles are likely to hit a given target.
Quote: Great hero again
Thanks, I try. :)
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 02.06.2006, 13:44
Chill Wind will work like hook I think. The first enemy unit it catches is drawn for a certain distance to the caster -> needs skill!
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 02.06.2006, 17:48
Cool. Will it pull slowly and be channelling, as in my original suggestion, or will it be a quick pull like Hook? I think having it pull slowly and be channelling would be better for synergy, and make it less spammable.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 02.06.2006, 18:58
Yes channeling and slowly could be good if he has another damaging spell (which he will have).
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 13:56
Seems good to me. Icicles effectiveness has too large of a jump from level 1 to 2, but otherwise great. Would also work nicely with Frozen Orb I think.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 06.06.2006, 18:04
Hm if he keeps the passive you suggested, he won´t have an Aoe damage spell like I wanted. I think there are currently no "normal" aoe nukes in SL so I wanted to have one.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 19:59
If that is the case, I think Ice Shards will have to be retooled so that it only adds a slow to his normal attack damage, rather than substituting nuke damage. His killing combo will be a bit powerful by SL standards otherwise (Orb --> Chill Wind --> Icicles --> AOE nuke = GG enemy hero).
Something like this:
Ice Shards
Type: Active self-buff, slow
The Onmyoji hurls damaging icicles at his enemies, each icicle slowing the target by 10% for 5 seconds. The slow from icicles that hit the same target is cumulative.
Level 1 - The hero's next attack will slow.
Level 2 - The hero's next 2 attacks will slow.
Level 3 - The hero's next 3 attacks will slow.
Level 4 - The hero's next 4 attacks will slow.
Level 5 - The hero's next 5 attacks will slow.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Forbidden - 08.06.2006, 00:26
Like you said yourself Cromis to Kouenzans Ikazuchi hero suggestion: "As of now the heroes all have realistic classes; let's not introduce 'Thunder God' into the mix". And your "Ice God" differs? half his skills are gifts from the Ice god Fujin or something similar. What makes him so different from Kouenzans suggestion even if there is an Onmyodo style or whatever? He's human sure, but has godly powers like creating Ice out of thin air. I find it just as ridiculous as "Thunder God". Sure his skills work nicely and balance is there, but you said it yourself...No Gods...Ice God included...
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 08.06.2006, 00:34
He isn´t a ice god, he`s just a mage. And like nearly every mage he serves a god and so he has powers which are related to his god (or granted by his god as a gift)
It´s fine for me.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 00:45
Look, SL is a fantasy game, there is no denying it. That, however, doesn't mean anything goes. The question I ask myself when viewing any hero suggestion (or considering one of my own) is, 'How plausible would these skills and this flavour text be if they were to occur in an actual Japanese legend or folktale?' The Onmyoji is quite plausible, as historical onmyoji (or yin yang masters) were diviners at the very least and sometimes believed to weild other supernatural powers. The references to the Kunoichi's drawing power from fox spirits is likewise plausible in this sense. Having a Thunder God fighting alongside mortals, however, is not.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 26.06.2006, 19:54
Looks like I`m going to use a passive mana increasing ability, a damage in line nuke, the chill wind pull (channeled) and the frozen orb as ultimate.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 26.06.2006, 22:24
No glaives? I should be happy (since I've been arguing against a glaives ability since you first mentioned it), but somehow I'm not too thrilled with having a mana-increasing (btw, do you mean mana-increasing or mana regen-increasing?) passive instead. That is just as boring. Please tell me there will be some additional effect to this passive. The % chance to freeze attackers' weapons that I first suggested still sounds pretty good to me, though I now realise that it would have to disable attacks for something more like 1 second; with the attack cooldowns in SL, 0.3 seconds would not even prevent a single attack.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 26.06.2006, 22:36
Mana regen increasing.
Don´t get what you exactly mean with freeze weapon? Is he stunned or is his attack speed slowed by 100% ?
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 26.06.2006, 22:56
Sorry for being unclear. I mean attack speed slowed by 100%, yes, or whatever would be the easiest/neatest way to prevent him from attacking while allowing him to do everything else. It's basically a poor man's evasion: instead of protecting you from the attack that triggers it, you take damage from that attack as normal, but prevent the attacker from attacking again until the freeze is over. So it's good for improving your (otherwise pretty miserable) staying power in a fight, but will not do much for you when you're being chased or are on the point of death.
Now that I think about it more deeply, the duration may actually need to be ~1.5 seconds, because the sequence goes like this:
(without freeze procing)
Attack [cooldown] attack
(with freeze procing)
Attack [freeze] [remaining cooldown, if cooldown is more than freeze duration] attack
meaning that the effective freeze period actually = the supposed freeze period - the attacker's cooldown. So if your attack cooldown is 1 second, a 1.5 second freeze would really cost you only half an attack, and if your cooldown was a (very fast) 0.5 seconds, a 1.5 second freeze would cost you two attacks. That seems reasonable to me.
If all that is too complicated for your taste (not to code of course, but in terms of balancing), then I suggest a % chance to block spells instead.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 26.06.2006, 23:08
Hm I understand it now, but I don´t think it`s more interesting or thrills more than a normal regen. It´s boring in my opinion, it`s just a passive and you can`t control it so it doesn´t save you from hits in important situations -> the problem is we don´t come up with anything better :P
I start thinking ;) ...
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 26.06.2006, 23:23
ANYTHING is more interesting than just a 0-range Brilliance Aura. :P Also there is the usefulness aspect of it, and this guy could certainly benefit from a bit of pseudo-evasion/spell shield.
Hmmm. What do you think of an active which also has a passive bonus? Would that be viable, or is it something you'd rather avoid?
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 26.06.2006, 23:57
Say, I just thought of something! How about an active spell-block? You cast it, and the first time you are dealt magic damage in the next X seconds, that damage and its accompanying effects are blocked. Something like this:
Blocks one spell in the next 2 seconds.
Level 1 - 17 second cooldown. 38 mana cost.
Level 2 - 14 second cooldown. 26 mana cost.
Level 3 - 11 second cooldown. 24 mana cost.
Level 4 - 8 second cooldown. 22 mana cost.
Level 5 - 5 second cooldown. 20 mana cost.
Numbers will need tweaking, of course, but that's the general idea. Basically, it would work the way guard does in fighting games: you see or predict an attack coming and quickly hit block to counter it. It's like using a blink or image split skill to dodge spells, only this skill has a bigger window in which you can block, and is designed for nothing else.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 27.06.2006, 00:01
Yes not bad, also requires some skill to use (rocks) =) but I´m a little bit tired now, will write more tomorrow. The ability can be any active too, I just don´t want another damager.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 27.06.2006, 14:35
I like it. The only problem is that it will be very hard to use with lag. Also, should it be magic immunity, spell shield, or 100% spell damage reduction? Depending on the base skill some spells go through magic immunity (anything based on ladder ultimates for example, also some triggered stuff would probably go through). Spell shield doesn't protect from area attacks and triggered spells might just go through it, too. 100% spell damage reduction doesn't protect against stuns/debuffs and the like. Just think a bit about which of the 3 you want to use, or which combination.
And make the mana cost 30 or 40 at all levels. The point shouldn't be putting a finger on the hotkey and spamming the spell whenever its cooled down, but to use the skill only when you think an attack is coming.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 27.06.2006, 15:34
I think I go for magic immunity.
Making the spell right now, already finished the damage in a line nuke, and the ultimate (tweaking stats now).
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 27.06.2006, 15:44
That's what I feared. Definitely test what it protects against, because depending on how your triggered spells work it might do almost nothing. Or it might block almost everything.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 27.06.2006, 15:55
Lol why? It blocks all spells. You can`t even target the hero.
Anybody has a good name for the ability?
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 27.06.2006, 16:29
Well, there are area attacks which might go through it, like Flare in N2 ToB. Also if the Ninja stun is what it looks like (Raider Net) it will definitely go through.
Also blocking everything might be too strong, and preventing targeting would also suck. The whole point is making enemies waste their spells by blocking them. 100% spell damage reduction would probably be best.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 27.06.2006, 16:40
Magic immunity, like nooK said, would block everything (that is, assuming he has not based anything off ladder ultis, which I don't think he has), but remember that it will only work for the first magic damage received in that 2 second window. Actually, 2 seconds may be a little too much; perhaps 1.5 seconds would better fulfill its purpose as a hair-trigger block. Beta-testing will definitely be needed to balance this skill, I think.
Remember that this is an Int hero. Unless you attach a prohibitively high mana cost, it will be cooldown and not mana that is the prime limiting factor. Perhaps the cooldown needs to be increased further; I forget that this is SL and not DotA, so it is not that likely that you will be targetted by a million Stunning Nukes of GG in the three seconds that spellblock is not available. :P Maybe a 7 second (assuming a 2 second block window) or 6 second (assuming a 1.5 second block window) cooldown at level 5?
I think Shikigami would still work as a name, given the right flavour text. The idea is the same as for the skill I originally proposed: the Onmyoji calls up spirits that protect him in some way, in this case, by blocking spells. I will post a reworked description in a while.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 27.06.2006, 16:51
Ooh, you have a point about net. Tough cookies, I guess? :P
Why would blocking everything be too strong? What exactly do you think should go through it? :? Preventing targetting seems okay to me; the opponent can, after all, just wait 1.5/2 seconds and just cast the spell then. Or use an AOE spell to use up the spellblock, then use your single-target spell. If you want to make your opponent waste his spell, you'll just have to time it so you use it in the interval between casting and impact (not practical with, say, Teppo, and quite impossible with Kaze, but quite doable with Shurikens or any AOE spell).
If for some reason it turns out to be hard to balance this way, I guess a simple healing back of the first magic damage you receive would be quite satisfactory, too. It would be a weaker spell as a result, of course, and would have to be balanced accordingly.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 27.06.2006, 16:57
Edit: didn't read your second post before writing this.
Frost Shield? Overused, but oh well.
And blocking just the first spell would be quite pointless with magic immunity. Like nook said you cant be targeted by spells when you're magic immune. And not only ladder ultis go through, also non-magical skills. Like Raider Ensnare (or whatever it's called), which the ninja stun might be based on.
Edit: About mana cost being not very problematic with an int hero: I don't know how much Mana the hero will have, but 40 mana every 5s would definitely put a bit of a strain on the mana reserve. After all there are 3 other active spells, all needing mana.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 27.06.2006, 17:42
Dude, he will have over 1k of mana at level 20, without any items. I assume his ult will be high mana cost, but it should not be useable more than once during a battle. Even if he somehow blows 700 mana on nukes (which I think would be quite difficult in a single battle), he would still be able to use 40 mana cost spellblock 10 times (as if the battle's going to last 50 seconds). Increasing the manacost is simply not the way to go. If the numbers on the skill as first posted are too strong, I would prefer increasing the cooldown and decreasing the block window for a longer overall downtime. Like I said, 1.5 seconds every 6 seconds or 2 seconds every 7 seconds sounds about right to me.
Also, I reiterate: the point of this skill is not to give you magic immunity; 1.5/2 seconds is just not enough, and there are cheap Antimagic Potions for that anyway (their balance is questionable, as I've said elsewhere; that's not relevant to this discussion, though). The point is to give your otherwise very frail hero protection from big, painful nukes that have a casting delay, like Flying Death, Flying Daggers and Dragon Souls, provided your reaction time is quick enough. (And your connection, but that can't be helped.) I suppose for this purpose, instantly healing back the damage taken from the first spell would work well enough, but it is my intention also to give him some defence from chain stuns/slows, and this would not be possible with mere damage negation. You could block the damage from Flying Death, but you would still be stunned, so the Ronin could then chain into Kaze, an enemy Warlord could Dragon Souls/Teppo you after you land, and so on. There would just not be enough reward for the difficulty of blocking a spell in this manner.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 27.06.2006, 17:47
Ensnare is no problem, too easy to make it not go through spell immunity.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 27.06.2006, 18:11
Do you want it to not go through? Having one stun that goes through magic immunity could be nice.
Blocking with magic immunity is pretty much impossible, because it will simply prevent any casting on the hero while it is active, and the spells will be cast after the blocking time is over. Maybe giving Spellshield and 100% spell damage reduction would be good. It doesn't prevent targeting and is almost the same as magic immunity otherwise. The only problem would be area slows/stuns I think, like Ronin jump, depending on how they are triggered. And of course Ensnare too.
Personally (for imba haxing ingame, not from a balance/game design view) I would rather have a skill that doesn't prevent targeting but blocks fewer spells than magic immunity, because getting the enemy to waste his nuke is much better than making him not use it on you for 2 seconds.
And I guess cooldown and mana stuff would need to be tested ingame. 7/2 sounds pretty nice to me.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 27.06.2006, 18:14
Okay, here's the skill description.
Shikigami
The Onmyoji quickly summons a swarm of lesser frost spirits to shield him from magical attacks. Grants the hero magic immunity for 1.75 seconds or until one spell is blocked.
'Frost on grass:
a fleeting form
that is, and is not!'
Level 1 - 13 second cooldown.
Level 2 - 11 second cooldown.
Level 3 - 9 second cooldown.
Level 4 - 7 second cooldown.
Level 5 - 5 second cooldown.
-
I think that explains the skill as clearly and succinctly as possible.
Note that I have taken out the changing mana costs; I figure that by the same reasoning I used to show that a high mana cost would not be an effective way to balance the skills effectiveness, a falling mana cost would also be a poor and unnecessary way to reward levels in the skill. (Currently, as I like to say, there is no skill with mana costs that change with level, so I will not suggest one without a very good reason.) Instead, the skill will cost 30 mana at all levels.
Naturally, betatesting will reveal any number tweaks needed. I'm actually certain that quite a bit of tweaking will be necessary, as this sort of skill is next to impossible to balance on paper. You have to see how it works in-game.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 27.06.2006, 19:00
nooK, that's excellent.
Galefury, you've got the wrong idea. This is how you use spell immunity to block a spell:
Ninja casts Net or Ensnare on you. As the projectile leaves his hand, you quickly hit Shikigami, negating the spell (or maybe just one Shuriken? I dunno). Or, he uses Flying Daggers; as you see the first blink, you activate Shikigami, reducing the damage you take by 1/3 due to blocking the first fan of knives.
Ronin jumps at you with Flying Death. Instead of risking a physical dodge, you use Shikigami, and he lands next to you harmlessly. (He will probably Kaze you after that, though. :P If you're quick, and lucky, you can Chill Wind him before he casts it, which ought to give him a bit of a surprise.)
Warlord casts Dragon Souls, and your Chill Wind is cooling down, so you can't interrupt it. As the cool spinning fire animation plays, use Shikigami. He just wasted his ulti. (Will you still be pushed, though? I don't know. Doesn't matter that much, unless you start to channel Chill Wind right after casting Shikigami.)
Other interesting uses:
You want to chase a low-HP Yumi Samurai, but you suspect traps. Turn on Shikigami as you reach the danger area, and the first stun will be blocked. Just hope there's only one trap. :wink:
Integrate it into your combo. Cast Orb, then Shikigami, then Chill Wind. Your target's allies, if they are around to help him, will then need to use two spells in order to interrupt your channelling before the 1.75 second mark.
Chain Shikigami, Anti-Magic Potion, and another Shikigami for a total of 18.6 seconds of magic immunity. (Okay, so 3.5 seconds of that comes with strings attached, but it's not such a big deal. :P)
You're laning against a Yari Samurai early game. Position yourself near to the creeps to bait him into taking a swipe at you with Whirling Yari. As he gets within range, use Shikigami. What will he do? Attacking you will aggro your creeps. Waiting around will give you free hits. Running back will also give you free hits, and give you a perfect opportunity to pull him back with Chill Wind for some more. Win/win.
The possibilities aren't endless, but they are pretty varied! This skill is much more than just a tiny AM Potion.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 27.06.2006, 19:13
Yes I also like it. Just finished it, cooldown on Level 5 is 7 sec, and mana cost 40, duration is 2 sec, but we have to test that all ingame.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 27.06.2006, 19:43
Taking the magic immunity away after one hit might be a problem I guess, because technically you don't get hit by the spells.
And I didn't say there are few possibilities with the magic immunity, just that there would be more with spell blocking like I suggested (namely, preemptive blocking like with the traps for all nukes, not just blocking after seeing the nuke being used). IMO that would be a good thing, as the skill would be hard enough to use like that already, and with magic immunity it's even harder. But I guess we will see ingame how useful the skill is like this, and if it should be buffed or nerfed.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 27.06.2006, 19:54
Need flavour text for the damage in a line. It´s name is Frostlance (couldn´t come up with something better), maybe you can help me.
edit: And yes the magic immunity won´t be removed after a hit, it just stays for 2 seconds.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 28.06.2006, 06:52
Is it impossible to have it taken away after the first spell that would otherwise have affected you, or is it just not worth the bother to code?
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 28.06.2006, 12:31
Nothing is impossible ;) but I had to change a lot of stuff I think. Also only blocking only one spell could make it quite useless.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 28.06.2006, 16:08
I suppose. I guess we'd better see how it works out with plain old spell immunity before you put yourself through all that trouble. :P
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Galefury - 29.06.2006, 17:06
well, with spell shield and damage reduction it would be easier. Spell shield goes away naturally after 1 hit, and the damage reduction could probably be taken away by checking if spell shield is on cooldown (if that's possible). With magic immunity it's impossible I think, except by giving every spell an additional dispel effect or sometihng silly like that. And then everything would be dispelled.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Fiuri - 30.06.2006, 09:20A Friendly Suggestion
The Model doe'snt Fit to be a nuker
:Why? - because it has a flingy thing
:Suggest Model - Hand Change it to glove type!!!
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 30.06.2006, 14:07
First think then post.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Forbidden - 21.10.2006, 13:10
As much as we all would love to see Chill Wind on Onmyoji, I am under the impression that nooK is looking for a replacement for Chill Wind because the guy coding Chill Wind isn't making any progress. Here's something we discussed with Omerta:
Some form of summon, a mini Frost Infernal/Golem or an Ice Spawn (model of Lava Spawn).
We had in mind that frost lance would affect the summon. Something like when the summon gets hit by frost lance one of two things would happen:
a) the units is healed equal to the damage frost lance causes
b) the unit grows in size and becomes more powerful
If a) would happen, the summon should grow in power as levels advance. If b) was the case, then the summon could have base stats same every level, but increased duration so it could be made more powerful via frost lance.
Om also had an idea to make the summon function like Blood Mages Phoenix, except that the "egg" (or whatever is left behind when the summon dies) would have to be hit by frost lance in order to revive it.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 21.10.2006, 22:51
I am really quite astounded by this news. If DotA could come up with (or borrow) a spell that causes units within an area to be pulled towards a certain point, what is the difficulty in creating a spell that pulls a single unit towards a certain point?
That said, the summon idea sounds very interesting. I think option a is preferable, for simplicity's sake. It would also be more practical--what good is it to buff a unit that is dying and can't be healed?
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Forbidden - 21.10.2006, 23:26
No offense but by all means if it's that simple do it yourself. I'm not saying that I could do it. And I think it's not that the guy who is coding Chill Wind can't do it, but that he's too lazy to do it.
Well in b)'s case, the unit would be in front of the Onmyoji when he casts Frost Lance, so it would just get buffed along with damaging enemy units.
If the buffing idea is useless when the summons have a timed-life, then make them permanent, like Carrion Beetles.
I meant for the growth to be cumulative so that every frost lance makes the summon even stronger. And as I said, the duration the summon survives should be relatively long or even permanent until killed. So the summon could actually be made quite powerful by frost lance if the unit is hit many times by it. Of course it should have a limit beyond which it could not be powered up anymore.
If the summon idea is too simple, suggest something else. All I care for right now is to get Onmyoji out on the field.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 22.10.2006, 04:10
The way that I see it, Chill Wind is basically Meathook... And it is a very cool idea.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 22.10.2006, 14:57
Quote: No offense but by all means if it's that simple do it yourself.
Whether or not I could code it myself has nothing to do with it. I cannot bake a lasagne, but that is because I have never leanred to cook--it does not mean that a lasagne is a particularly difficult thing to bake.
Quote: If the summon idea is too simple, suggest something else.
Read my post again. I said option a (healing the summon, as mentioned in your own post) would be preferable.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Viziroth - 23.10.2006, 22:19
Well if you've ever played anime fight(not war) then there's ability like chill wind, miroku's wind tunnel, It pulls everything in front of him in and does damage overtime.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lord.DarthVader - 17.11.2006, 15:32
I have add one idea for this new hero because i think be more nice for him and more powerfull, climatic Hero.. My suggestion is:
Change Model of this Speel:
For this Flying Stars:
;)
This idea is from this map Samurai vs Spirits: http://wc3sear.ch/index.php?p=Maps&ID=9555&sid= Check this and give your comment!
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 18.11.2006, 09:44
Dude, why? That wouldn't make any sense for him, as it has nothing to do with ice or with magic, and it looks way lamer.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 18.11.2006, 12:20
Agree with cromis, why should he have a not asian looking glaive model (that shoot`s other glaives out?) if he is an frost mage?
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lord.DarthVader - 18.11.2006, 15:55
Why? Because this is special map with Special Asian Heroes and Special Asian Weapon right?
So i see hero with weapon flying stars and this guy attack units with this star so i think its Master of this star right? i know is wrong because is Master of Frozen fight. :( Why this Hero: Onmyoji not using flying star for fight as spell?
Now not need weapon and this guy is another for me. I have sey: This guy is really special, useing nice weapon "flying star" so why not creat powerfull frozen flying star for him to be moore cool?
Sompthink like Ranger... Ranger useing bow and is master of shoting with arrow. Using Fire Arrows, and Rain of Arrows and this is ok because this unit use your weapon to battlefield with special spells. Hero: Onmyoji is guy with star and fight not using star because using frozen speels.
Sorry for bad english.. ;)
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 18.11.2006, 17:22
He uses the star all the time.
I've been learning to use this hero in the past few games... you tend to normal attack quite a lot, because it's a ranged attack and quite plainly you -can-.
You can't be nuking the whole time. Gotta throw some giant shuriken at your enemies too :D
....by the way, Fujin's Breath still affects buildings. I can obliterate towers, outposts, dojos... heck, you should see the damage the spell does if you aim it right. Onmyoji > Yumi for siege, until this bug is fixed :lol:
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Omerta - 18.11.2006, 23:09
Lyncor wrote: ....by the way, Fujin's Breath still affects buildings. I can obliterate towers, outposts, dojos... heck, you should see the damage the spell does if you aim it right. Onmyoji > Yumi for siege, until this bug is fixed :lol:
Was going to be reduced before the actual 0.85 release, but due to a mistake, it is not. Should be fixed in the next release.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 18.11.2006, 23:20
Yes, I checked for unit type structure instead of mechanical, so it isn`t reduced the way it should be..me nub, sorry ;)
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 19.11.2006, 11:02
Hehehe, nicely done. Figured it'd be a silly mistake like that.
In the meantime... tower ownage! :D
Heh heh heh.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 19.11.2006, 12:07
I´m happy we didn´t use Chill Wind for him it would have been impossible to balance. Pull -> Fujin -> Frostlance ...
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 30.11.2006, 04:36
After playing a whole lot, it's clear to pretty much everyone that I've talked to that this hero is overpowered.
He needs some kind of nerf. I'm not sure what at the moment... probably Fujin, as once you get good at aiming it, you can pretty much ensure a kill every time with it. It also definately should not do -any- damage to buildings, because it already completely owns against heroes.
Frostlance could also stand to have a higher cooldown, lower range or lower damage.
Armies are useless against this hero, even moreso than Ninja. Heroes get owned by him. He rocks at pushing and siege. If you give him some monk clothes, he also has plenty of armour.
---> No weakness, very high strengths - not to mention the fact that it has ALL of the strengths, bar stun (Though it does have slow).
Ronin + Onmyoji = You are dead. Period.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 30.11.2006, 15:36
Frostlance needs a damage nerf. Nerfing range would not be that effective IMHO; he will still not have much trouble hitting you with it in a laning situation (assuming you are a melee hero), and when used in a combo, it will usually be chained right after Fujin's Breath, so you will be slowed and get hit anyway.
I agree with nerfing the damage on Fujin's Breath, too.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 30.11.2006, 15:39
Also, Frostlance should cast to the point on the ground that you click it - or perhaps in the direction that you're facing when you press the button to cast it. Either of those, but especially the latter, would make it more of a skill ability - currently, you target a hero and it'll always hit (Barring antimagic etc).
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
nooK - 02.12.2006, 01:26
Quote: He needs some kind of nerf. I'm not sure what at the moment... probably Fujin, as once you get good at aiming it, you can pretty much ensure a kill every time with it. It also definately should not do -any- damage to buildings, because it already completely owns against heroes.
Fujin`s Breath will get a small damage nerf, but will damage buildings. Why? First, none of his other skills affects buildings, second the damage will be very low and third if it doesn´t damage buildings it goes right through them.. into heroes or units.
Quote: Frostlance could also stand to have a higher cooldown, lower range or lower damage.
Frostlance is ok, imo.
Quote: Armies are useless against this hero, even moreso than Ninja. Heroes get owned by him. He rocks at pushing and siege. If you give him some monk clothes, he also has plenty of armour.
---> No weakness, very high strengths - not to mention the fact that it has ALL of the strengths, bar stun (Though it does have slow).
He has the lowest hp ingame, the lowest armor, he has no stun, his slow is very low and his escape mechanism is quite risky...
He is all about dealing damage, you must play offensively against him as he can`t take much dmg.
Plans:
- Reduced damage of Ronin by 5 and Onmyoji by 10
- Reduced strength gained per level for Onmyoji -> 200 hp less, is it nerfed too much?
- "Fujin`s Breath" now deals reduced damage to buildings
And the Fujin´s Breath dmg nerf.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 02.12.2006, 09:53
Quote: Fujin`s Breath will get a small damage nerf, but will damage buildings. Why? First, none of his other skills affects buildings, second the damage will be very low and third if it doesn´t damage buildings it goes right through them.. into heroes or units.
It's normal for a hero to have no skills that damage buildings, IMHO! I don't see a problem with it going right through buildings.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 06.12.2006, 17:33
I'll say again. Fujin's Breath shouldn't just deal reduced damage to buildings - it shouldn't harm them at all. Dragonsoul doesn't, Flying Daggers doesn't... why should Fujin, when it does even MORE damage against heroes and carries a slowing effect to boot?
Also, I had an idea on how to balance Frostlance a bit. Instead of nerfing the damage, or whatever... why not reduce its BERTH? That would mean that the 'wave' is less wide. I'm talking about 1/3, or even 1/4 of the width it currently has. Therefore, it can be more easily dodged - more of a skill ability - and wouldn't be as unbelievably uber against armies. It would fit the name more too - actually a thin, penetrating lance of frost, not just a giant wave of ice.
It should, again, not be unit-targettable. Ground-target only, like Flying Death. Onmy is way too easy to use, he needs to be more difficult to play well.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
tegeus-Cromis - 06.12.2006, 18:52
I like that idea a whole lot. Line damage is somewhat less common than Shockwave-type damage, and more interesting to use. I support this suggestion.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 14.12.2006, 15:05
By the way... I've played Shinobi a bunch more, and better learned how he works.
Way of Death is actually really awesome :)
But it's a skill ability - gotta aim it. Frostlance isn't, currently - definately need to make it ground-targetted and thinner.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Anonymous - 10.01.2007, 15:36
I think 1000hp would be to low for lvl 20,that would mean he would be almost soloable by any nuke hero such as ronin,kaze,flying death maybe a few hits if not that ofcaurse airy chase(which would be normal)but eather way that would most likley kill him. But thats just one example.
So yes i belive 200 health nerf is to much perhaps 100 or a bit less.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Stiffleg - 11.01.2007, 02:26
My recommendation for Onmyuji is nerfing his MP, not his health. Naturally, he can continually cast many spells without running out of mana and the only setback would be a cooldown. Let alone people who add the additional magic boosting items to increase MP and MP-regeneration rate; Where the concern goes from "How long would it take me to kill him" to "When will he run back to the fountain and stop casting nukes on me?".
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Lyncor - 11.01.2007, 03:06
As odd as it may sound for me to say this..
If you nerf his maximum mana a bit, making him -need- his mana aura to cast nukes willy-nilly, and also make Frostlance a bit slower casting and ground-target only so that it takes a good dose of skill to hit with it.. he might be balanced. The ult is powerful, yes, but so is Flying Daggers.
In summary, I recommend:
-Increase the casting times of Frostlance and Fujin's Breath by about half a second, giving skilled players a bit more time to react and perform counters - in turn, making the player of Onmyoji need more skill to be effective than "Walk up, throw nuke". It also adds a larger element of movement-prediction to aiming these abilities. If a skilled Ronin player can effectively predict the movement of his foes, so can - and should - a skilled Onmyoji player.
-Decrease his mana pool by a few hundred, so that he can't continuously nuke without his aura. Remember, while there aren't that many hp-increasing items, there are TONS of mana-increasing ones. If the player needs more mana, he can always just go buy a Kanji Stone. This will make Onmyoji a bit less horrid to lane against, because he'll actually have to conserve mana for the hero fights instead of being able to nuke the face of all the creep and THEN perform a full load of nukes on the next hero that comes along. Also keep in mind that if he wants to continuously nuke, he could do what every other hero has to do and just buy a mana potion.
-Make Frostlance unable to lock on to a unit, requiring ground-based aim to score a successful hit. I cannot stress this enough. You have to most other nukes in SL, and that's a very good thing. Frostlance needs to be the same way.
-Decrease the range of his mana aura. It would be nice teamwork-wise if other heroes needed to be within a short distance to him to recieve the mana regen boost - instead of just being 'in the area'. I suggest an AoE of around 400-500 radius. At the very least, it needs to be lower range than the range of Onmyoji's normal attack. That way, melee heroes that are attacking creep in the same lane as him will not recieve the mana regen boost unless Onmy comes a little closer - adding an element of active teamwork to the ability. To note, the radius for the mana-down version of the aura should be about 100-200 range further than the range of his normal attack - so that melee heroes going against him in a lane will take the degen, but ranged will not unless he gets close. Also, it allows melee heroes to 'back away' a little in order to get more mana - which is essentially a good way of keeping them away from the creep and gain a lane-ing advantage.
-Increase the cooldown of Shikigami, so that it can't be spammed. For a hero that's supposed to be frail, he's a tad too good at escaping in the hands of a skilled player - let alone with Skywalkers and/or Blink. I suggest taking the current values for the cooldown and DOUBLING them. Remember, hero battles are relatively long in SL. It often takes around 30 seconds to kill someone, in a skilled game.
I look forward to actually being able to respect a player that's doing well with Onmyoji. At the moment, he's quite frankly too easy to use.
Re: Hero: Onmyoji
Anonymous - 11.01.2007, 23:50
Nerfing his mana sounds perfect.
And so does non targetable frostlance,but then,as stupid as this sounds,it should probably show you the width of its range once it hits like flying death shows you the width of the damage and stun range when u land it.
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