Verfügbare Informationen zu "Feelings on 0.8"
Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Anonymous - Skirn - Omerta - nooK - tegeus-Cromis - Kai Okarian - Forbidden - Viziroth - Lyncor Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: General Antworten: 37 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Feelings on 0.8 Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 7 Monaten, 8 Tagen, 2 Stunden, 30 Minuten
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Re: Feelings on 0.8
Anonymous - 17.09.2006, 06:02Feelings on 0.8
This is a mini-review of .8 in my (And Roboferret’s opinion.) I’ll start with the basic pros and cons.
Pros – Warlord heal fixed!
Yumi’s less regen makes her a lot more balanced.
Potions being overtime.
The middle is now worth guarding.
Zanbato being more worthwhile!
Cons – Ronin is now near unstoppable in the hands of a good player. Lyncor and I can prove this if you like. He went from ‘underpowered*’ to godlike.
The huts seem…well, pointless. It doesn’t really add or remove anything, making it more annoying after looking at them.
Limited army makes troops less fun.
Immolation cloak and blink dagger seem overpowered for the price.
Shinobi is still immortal against an army.
The army in the middle will take down the towers if there isn’t a hero then 24/7. It doesn’t even need hero support.
No-Dachi feels unpolished.
*Ronin being overpowered was an opinion to begin with, I know a lot of people who disagreed with that.
Notice how the cons outweigh the pros. I’m not a cynical person believe it or not, I just don’t like .8 very much, and actually feel .7 was better.
The Ronin and Ninja team can now kill people without fail even when they screw up. Before, Ferret and I needed to have perfect timing, or they’d escape, now? I can Kaze while he’s using Flying Daggers, and they’d still die without being able to escape. This is because the attack power of the Ronin and Ninja is now far too powerful, after all, these two are the ones who can stop people dead in their tracks, that’s devastating if they can also hit hard. Honestly, I liked the .7 Ronin and Ninja better, they seemed to be more balanced then the current versions, including the ability for Shurikens to hit allies. The positioning created something that balanced the heavy damage greatly.
The huts really seem more cluttered then anything else, I don’t see them serving a purpose, doesn’t even really add anything to the environment.
The limited army in all honesty, just doesn’t make any sense to me. We’ve gotten armies that have literally filled entire lanes just to march to bases, they only lag if Shinobi tanks them. They weren’t ‘unstoppable’ either, a good Ninja, Yumi, or Warlord could kill the army easily. A good Ronin can delay and torture the army without hurting himself, and a good Yari can tank it long enough for towers or troops to kill it. You don’t even need to double team to take it out … So why bother limiting it?
A few of the new items just either seem overpowered, or underpriced. The blink dagger without honor? It makes it a ‘requirement’ instead of ‘This is something that might work…’ like a lot of the items were before (Skywalkers in .7 was the only thing before, and now it’s not.) Then there’s the immolation cloak… Put it on a Yari, Shinobi, or Ronin. They can then kill everything. I mean –everything- without trying. I never liked the idea of immolation cloaks, lots of damage per second just by standing next to something? It costs no mana (Like immolation would.), just a straight out gold cost. I personally feel that item needs to be changed so it’s not always on.
Shinobi’s abstraction is the exact same. ‘nough said.
Middle is requires babysitting now, if you don’t have a hero there at all times, what’ll happen is a huge army will pile up, I mean the type that requires a crapload of firepower to actually take out. I’ve actually seen the computer alone getting 24 archers on just one side of the middle…That’s overwhelming. I liked the idea, but I think you added to many units. Maybe only giving the middle an extra Yari, or making a new unit that’s slightly stronger then the Yari that goes to the middle with the spawn.
No-Dachi … Yeah, okay, to begin with Rising Dragon does far to much damage for something that is a blink strike. Not only do they put themselves next to you, but also take out a quarter of your life? Ow. His ultimate is the jack of all trades, and master of them all too. It can kill heroes, armies, and bases, it can even be used as an escape route for fraks sake! And it does all of this very easily. Oh, and the reason I say ‘unpolished’ instead of overpowered is simply because a lot of his skills feel…well, quickly made. Rising Dragon just looks strange, Blaze is something that has been seen often before. His ultimate is the one thing that seems slightly polished, but that one is also unbelievably overpowered.
I like Samurai Legends, really I do, but .8 feels rather…disappointing.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Skirn - 17.09.2006, 06:10
Ack, forgot to log on, that Guest is in fact me. And I have a little something Ferret wanted me to add in.
RoboFerret: Yes, I am too lazy to create and account, so I'll have skirn do the work for me. ^^ Skirn covered most of my thoughts above, but I'd just like to reinforce some of them. Ronin and Ninja, should be changed back to their .7 states, (with the exception of Airy Charge, which was too weak in .7, and is too strong in .8 ) The way these heroes worked in .7 just feels so much better than the way they are in .8, Skirn and I would know, being as these are the two heroes we played almost every single game in the many times we've played SL. I also agree with skirn's review of the No-dachi, for reasons he stated above.
Middle definitely needs to lose the extra archer, as in the end it just amasses to a huge army of them.
I agree with skirn on the rest of his points, but these were just the ones I wanted to especially reinfoce.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Omerta - 17.09.2006, 09:43
- His ultimate is not a basekiller in my opinion, images will tank some damage but their attack doesn't really do damage to towers. It kills heros quick if you can surround the target, but it isn't too hard to run out of the surround unless its done perfectly, you are stunned/ensnared or having bad delay.
- Huts are just for filling up some useless empty space, no pros or cons.
- Food limit counter is used by the kill/death thing, so we couldn't used it to limit the spawns. If you wan't to play with huge armies, share control for the mercenaries or play ladder.
- I think nooK said that blink dagger doesn't have honor cost for the reason that at least you can get it when you don't have honor for Skywalker's.
- We've noticed that mid spawns tend to mass up, and it's especially troubling when Warlord is pushing it. :\
Try to get along with the current balance, remember that this is the first public 0.8 release and there is some things that we haven't either thought of or haven't noticed.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 17.09.2006, 12:37
Quote: Notice how the cons outweigh the pros. I’m not a cynical person believe it or not, I just don’t like .8 very much, and actually feel .7 was better.
Uhh pretty disappointing for me, that you see 0.7 superior..all the bugs in there...
Quote: The Ronin and Ninja team can now kill people without fail even when they screw up. Before, Ferret and I needed to have perfect timing, or they’d escape, now? I can Kaze while he’s using Flying Daggers, and they’d still die without being able to escape. This is because the attack power of the Ronin and Ninja is now far too powerful, after all, these two are the ones who can stop people dead in their tracks, that’s devastating if they can also hit hard. Honestly, I liked the .7 Ronin and Ninja better, they seemed to be more balanced then the current versions, including the ability for Shurikens to hit allies. The positioning created something that balanced the heavy damage greatly.
Code: - Decreased duration of "Ensnare"
- Increased mana cost of "Ensnare" to 60
- Decreased cooldown of "Shurikens" to 15 seconds
- "Shurikens" no longer damage allies
- Increased damage of "Kaze" on all levels by 50
- Increased cooldown of "Kaze" to 50 sec
- "Airy Charge" now speeds up faster
- Increased mana cost of "Airy Charge" to 100
- "Airy Charge" now deals spell damage instead of physical
- Increased mana cost of "Flying Death" to 90
- Increased initial mana amount of Ronin by 50
- Increased effect of "Death Poem"
Just ro rephrase the changes in 0.8 to both of them.
Important the buff of "Shurikens": No longer damages allies and cooldown from 20 sec to 15, but still not a powerful ability in my opinion: If your enemy only moves a bit and isn`t catching your shurikens like flies, 3-4 of them only hit. If he really moves, he can dodge ethem easily, just turn your angle and run a bit, it`s soo easy to outrun them.
If your enemy is total nub or you are a pro you deserve to deal 300 dmg.
Now to Ronin:
Kaze 50 more dmg doesn´t mean much in my opinion. Death Poem is only leveled at lategame, being under 500 hp then is pretty risky.
Now what really matters: Increased cd of Kaze...before you could Kaze all the time also I increased the mana cost of Airy and Flying Death, which makes it quite hard to pull of one spell after another, this is a huge nerf.
On the other hand Airy´s effectivity was buffed a lot. I think you are right, it was too much, but without having people playtesting this in real games with skilled players, balancing stuff perfectly is nearly impossible.
Also if you play against pubbies, you should consider how often you played this and how often they did. Ofcourse they stand no chance if you play against nubs, you know the game, you know your enemies and you team up. -> You pwn them, if it wouldn´t be like that, what´s skill then for?
Quote: The huts really seem more cluttered then anything else, I don’t see them serving a purpose, doesn’t even really add anything to the environment.
Many people complained the bases being so empty, so I added some huts. It still doesn´t look very good, but a lot better than the empty space in 0.7. Also I once thought of giving every player a hut with inventory so you can put items there which you don`t want to lay around (pretty useless I know) :P
Quote: The limited army in all honesty, just doesn’t make any sense to me. We’ve gotten armies that have literally filled entire lanes just to march to bases, they only lag if Shinobi tanks them. They weren’t ‘unstoppable’ either, a good Ninja, Yumi, or Warlord could kill the army easily. A good Ronin can delay and torture the army without hurting himself, and a good Yari can tank it long enough for towers or troops to kill it. You don’t even need to double team to take it out … So why bother limiting it?
12 fighting mercs (peasants don´t count) is still a lot. Mercs are thought for tactical purposes, ninja-ambushes, quick cavalry rushes, sieging with elite archers...
Not for massing up 50 units and putting expos/towers undefended by an hero down in 10 sec...
Quote: A few of the new items just either seem overpowered, or underpriced. The blink dagger without honor? It makes it a ‘requirement’ instead of ‘This is something that might work…’ like a lot of the items were before (Skywalkers in .7 was the only thing before, and now it’s not.) Then there’s the immolation cloak… Put it on a Yari, Shinobi, or Ronin. They can then kill everything. I mean –everything- without trying. I never liked the idea of immolation cloaks, lots of damage per second just by standing next to something? It costs no mana (Like immolation would.), just a straight out gold cost. I personally feel that item needs to be changed so it’s not always on.
People complained about immolation cloak being too weak..now it´s too strong..and 15 dmg per second is much? you have to stand full 10 sec nearby an enemy to deal 150 (!) dmg...you see it´s very hard to balance...
Quote: Shinobi’s abstraction is the exact same. ‘nough said.
It isn´t, in 0.7 he faded out for a full second, now it`s 0.5 sec.
Quote: Middle is requires babysitting now, if you don’t have a hero there at all times, what’ll happen is a huge army will pile up, I mean the type that requires a crapload of firepower to actually take out. I’ve actually seen the computer alone getting 24 archers on just one side of the middle…That’s overwhelming. I liked the idea, but I think you added to many units. Maybe only giving the middle an extra Yari, or making a new unit that’s slightly stronger then the Yari that goes to the middle with the spawn.
Totally right, adding more spawns in mid was done in the last seconds, I have to apologize. Will lose the archer in the next version.
Quote: No-Dachi … Yeah, okay, to begin with Rising Dragon does far to much damage for something that is a blink strike. Not only do they put themselves next to you, but also take out a quarter of your life? Ow. His ultimate is the jack of all trades, and master of them all too. It can kill heroes, armies, and bases, it can even be used as an escape route for fraks sake! And it does all of this very easily. Oh, and the reason I say ‘unpolished’ instead of overpowered is simply because a lot of his skills feel…well, quickly made. Rising Dragon just looks strange, Blaze is something that has been seen often before. His ultimate is the one thing that seems slightly polished, but that one is also unbelievably overpowered.
Hm for me Rising Dragon looks really cool, other people said that too, just a personal thing I guess. Damage is too high you´re right I will lower that a bit. Blaze is a cool skill for me, looks good, does it`s job.
And his ultimate: I don´`t think this is more polsihed than his other abilites. And overpowered? "It can kill heroes, armies, and bases" - if you don´t manage to surround them, you won`t do shit to them. Every image also deals reduced dmg to towers, if you tank with all 6 images you won´t do more damage than with in your normal form. Also the dowers kick the images away like nothing, due to their low armor. It works fine against armies, there you´re right.
Quote: I like Samurai Legends, really I do, but .8 feels rather…disappointing.
Sorry for that but I still think, 0.8 is way superior to 0.7 and is a lot more fun. But it could be better and thanks for pointing your opinions out.
So here we go for next version:
- Decrease Airy Charge damage, speed up will stay the same.
- Increase cooldown of "Airy Charge" to 25 seconds
- Increase mana cost of of "Ensnare" to 80
- Increase mana cost of of "Shurikens" to 90 (all ninja skills were very cheap in mana cost)
- Remove the extra archer spawning for the mid lanes
- Decrease the damage of Rising Dragon (90/140/190/250/290)
Tell me what you think, more opinions, better chance to balance it right ;)
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 18.09.2006, 15:51
IMHO, if you're going to nerf Rising Dragon, you will have to buff it in some other way. The cooldown is so long right now that I played a game yesterday where I never once got to cast it twice in any battle or chase, and I chased him all the way from my tower cluster to his a number of times. Basically, if you want to use it as a damager, you won't be able to use it as a finisher, and vice versa. For this reason, I feel that it is actually underpowered right now compared to skills like Way of Death.
So yeah, go ahead and nerf the damage, but shorten the cooldown too.
I feel that Order of the Six, on the other hand, is too strong. It is basically impossible for the No Dachi to ever die so long as he keeps his ulti up for escape purposes. I would be for reducing both the cooldown and the duration, so it is actually possible to chase the images and wait for the hero to reform. Currently, you would basically have to chase him from one base to the other, and that's just not going to happen.
My suggestion:
Duration to 1/2
Cooldown to 1/2
Slightly more damage to buildings, so that it will be at least on par with his normal attack.
I am still figuring out what to think of the immo cloak now. Yeah, it is really good for pushing, defending and just plain creeping, but at the same time it is absolutely useless when it comes to fighting other heroes. Maybe it's great for non-item-dependent heroes like the Ronin, or sad creep-killers like the Yari, but I think heroes the Warlord, Ninja and No Dachi need other items much more. Immo is a luxury on them.
-
Unlike Skirn, I do feel that 0.8 is an improvement. There are balance issues, but it's difficult to argue that they are worse than the ones that existed in 0.7.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Kai Okarian - 18.09.2006, 16:23
Quote: So here we go for next version:
- Decrease Airy Charge damage, speed up will stay the same.
- Increase cooldown of "Airy Charge" to 25 seconds
- Increase mana cost of of "Ensnare" to 80
- Increase mana cost of of "Shurikens" to 90 (all ninja skills were very cheap in mana cost)
- Remove the extra archer spawning for the mid lanes
- Decrease the damage of Rising Dragon (90/140/190/250/290)
Uh....Yeah, all I can say is what?! Everything there looks okay, EXCEPT for the fact that if you increase the mana cost of ensnare and shurikens MORE (Robo has told me that they've been increased already), that the Ninja's ganking ability will be toned down a lot. If you're going to increase the cost, you need to improve those skills somewhat.
And don't forget to nerf the shit out of the Shinobi. I cannot stress how important that is.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 18.09.2006, 16:34
Quote: IMHO, if you're going to nerf Rising Dragon, you will have to buff it in some other way. The cooldown is so long right now that I played a game yesterday where I never once got to cast it twice in any battle or chase, and I chased him all the way from my tower cluster to his a number of times. Basically, if you want to use it as a damager, you won't be able to use it as a finisher, and vice versa. For this reason, I feel that it is actually underpowered right now compared to skills like Way of Death.
it´s 13 sec atm, isn´t very long...
Quote: I feel that Order of the Six, on the other hand, is too strong. It is basically impossible for the No Dachi to ever die so long as he keeps his ulti up for escape purposes. I would be for reducing both the cooldown and the duration, so it is actually possible to chase the images and wait for the hero to reform. Currently, you would basically have to chase him from one base to the other, and that's just not going to happen.
My suggestion:
Duration to 1/2
Cooldown to 1/2
Slightly more damage to buildings, so that it will be at least on par with his normal attack.
What? That would even make it stronger, use your images to escape wait some sec and back are you in your normal form with the hp you had before?
And chasing: You chase him, kill 3 images and then he is back..
Quote: I am still figuring out what to think of the immo cloak now. Yeah, it is really good for pushing, defending and just plain creeping, but at the same time it is absolutely useless when it comes to fighting other heroes. Maybe it's great for non-item-dependent heroes like the Ronin, or sad creep-killers like the Yari, but I think heroes the Warlord, Ninja and No Dachi need other items much more. Immo is a luxury on them.
I reduce the dmg to 10 per sec. If it`s still to imba for you, I don´t know..
Even at ToB where items are cost wise even worse than in SL, such an item with an additional 5 armor costs 2200...
Quote: Unlike Skirn, I do feel that 0.8 is an improvement. There are balance issues, but it's difficult to argue that they are worse than the ones that existed in 0.7.
Thanks, if there are any other balance issues, point them out pls.
Quote: - Increased armor of towers to 10
- Removed the extra archer spawning for the mid lanes
- Increased cooldown of "Airy Charge" to 20 seconds
- Increased mana cost of of "Ensnare" to 80
- Increased mana cost of of "Shurikens" to 90
- Decreased duration of Old Man`s Friend to 30 sec & fixed wrong description
- Decreased damage of Ninja by 5
- Fixed AoE damage of "Magic Trap"
- Increased explosion radius on dying Dragon Warriors
- Reduced stun of Kaze to 1 second
- Rebalanced "Rising Dragon"
- Decreased Fire Sodeguchi´s immolation to 10 dmg/sec
- New effect for "Rain of Arrows"
- Fixed some typos and wrong descriptions
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 18.09.2006, 17:50
Quote: it´s 13 sec atm, isn´t very long...
It may not be very long, but it is too long. I was not imagining the scenario I described; I saw it played out multiple times in the course of a game, and this was against a hero without Skywalker Boots, a blink sword or a natural blink-type ability.
Quote: What? That would even make it stronger, use your images to escape wait some sec and back are you in your normal form with the hp you had before?
Wel, 1/3 duration, then. Whatever is necessary.
There is a simple way to solve the HP problem: have him lose a small amount of HP for each image that dies.
Quote: And chasing: You chase him, kill 3 images and then he is back..
You don't waste time killing the images; you follow the images and kill him when he reforms. This is the way one can sometimes kill the Pandaren in DotA. It's not easy, to be sure, but the way it is now, it's impossible.
Let me clarify: I don't mean that you could do this if you ambush him and he immediately splits. I'm referring to situations like these:
1) No Dachi splits outside a base/expo, runs one image back, and attacks with the others. See that? He just did a zero-risk push.
2) No Dachi splits at low HP. The images won't be too hardy, but there are six of them; it'd take a miracle to kill them all. You can't follow them and wait for him to reform, because that takes forever. What can you do?
3) No Dachi splits near the base to defend a push and runs one image over to an enemy expo. The enemy gets practically a full Order of Six defence, then finds that their expo is being pushed by a full HP hero who was, literally one second ago, defending his base. With No Dachi, you can have it both ways!
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Forbidden - 18.09.2006, 18:44
Even if the cooldown and duration were shortened I don't see what good it would do. It doesn't require much for the player controlling No-Daichi to split the dragon warriors up when running. People who are smart enough to run away are often smart enough to send a few dragon warriors into different directions. For example 2 to bottom, 2 to top and last 2 to middle. No way to know which of the 6 is the one that the hero will revert back to single form. You keep chasing you only have a 1/3 chance to stay on his tail. So even if you chase after him and wait for him to revert to single form I highly doubt that you will be able to kill him if you weren't able to do so while he was attacking.
Also I find Rising Dragon to be okay at the moment. Cooldown and all ok. It's one of the few nukes in this game. I'd rather not change it.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 18.09.2006, 18:51
Best thing to decrease his escape chances would be lowering the number of images.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Viziroth - 18.09.2006, 21:27
About the creeps massing in mid, I havn't found this a big problem, a ninja can use his ulti. I found lv 5 blaze can take out any creep without attacking at all. And Rain of arrows? comon that's like what it's made for. I havn't lost a tower to a creep wave that wasn't suported by a hero. And since I mostly play yumi, people noramlly flee when i cast rain of arrows and i'm either behind thowers or hiding in trees. Honestly I don't see a problem with the massive amounts of mid spawns. Although it takes a little time getting used to using the new nerfed yumi =( but i still manage lol xD. Also, I love the no-dachi. No-dachi on No-dachi battles are fun indeed. chasing eachother with blaze, trying to use raising dragon to avoid certain traps. Order of the six vs Order of the six O.O. Also has anyone else noticed that if you get surounded while using No-dachi or are fighting behind enemy lines raising dragon is an awesome escape move, fallowed by blaze so they either don't chase you or if they do they're weaked and any creep chasin you dies....i should prob post this in the general or strategy section huh? lol. (raising dragon into order of the six FTW!) But i think having the huts also does look better than just having the emptyness, also the towers protecting the dojos arn't close enough, people can just get behind the dojos and are still outta the range. Also I like the new ability the merc ninjas have, it's very useful. Altho I didn't much enjoy the wealth shrine nerf. I havn't built a merchant shrine in .8 is there a dif? Also I thank you for the towers shooting fire arrows, now I realize a tower is shooting mew in 1/2 the time lol. I didn't notice the spell reduction on mercs, I still kill them in one spell...And umm...yeah I can't rly think of any other changes at this time i fell like commenting on...Oh i liked the bigger tree models...Oh and for some reason when i tell my hero to run to an out post from the main base they head straight for the teleporter which I don't like since it often puts them in the lines of creeps. And it didn't do this back in .7. Also fo the imolation cloak, the discription says 15dmg but the buff icon (in the stat window) says that it's only 10, which is it? If it's 15 I belive it should cost more, and the blink dagger should cost maybe 2honor at least same with the dominate item(that didn't cost honor did it?) I think it should cost honor. Like the merc cap. Having thoughts about the regen insteada insant pots...I unno whether I like it or hate it lol. Also I'm upset only the No-dachi made the realise I was hoping to play the ice spec. Welp til I think of more coments lol. I'm out.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Omerta - 18.09.2006, 22:10
Viziroth wrote: About the creeps massing in mid, I havn't found this a big problem, a ninja can use his ulti. I found lv 5 blaze can take out any creep without attacking at all. And Rain of arrows? comon that's like what it's made for. I havn't lost a tower to a creep wave that wasn't suported by a hero. And since I mostly play yumi, people noramlly flee when i cast rain of arrows and i'm either behind thowers or hiding in trees. Honestly I don't see a problem with the massive amounts of mid spawns. Although it takes a little time getting used to using the new nerfed yumi =( but i still manage lol xD. Also, I love the no-dachi. No-dachi on No-dachi battles are fun indeed. chasing eachother with blaze, trying to use raising dragon to avoid certain traps. Order of the six vs Order of the six O.O. Also has anyone else noticed that if you get surounded while using No-dachi or are fighting behind enemy lines raising dragon is an awesome escape move, fallowed by blaze so they either don't chase you or if they do they're weaked and any creep chasin you dies....i should prob post this in the general or strategy section huh? lol. (raising dragon into order of the six FTW!) But i think having the huts also does look better than just having the emptyness, also the towers protecting the dojos arn't close enough, people can just get behind the dojos and are still outta the range. Also I like the new ability the merc ninjas have, it's very useful. Altho I didn't much enjoy the wealth shrine nerf. I havn't built a merchant shrine in .8 is there a dif? Also I thank you for the towers shooting fire arrows, now I realize a tower is shooting mew in 1/2 the time lol. I didn't notice the spell reduction on mercs, I still kill them in one spell...And umm...yeah I can't rly think of any other changes at this time i fell like commenting on...Oh i liked the bigger tree models...Oh and for some reason when i tell my hero to run to an out post from the main base they head straight for the teleporter which I don't like since it often puts them in the lines of creeps. And it didn't do this back in .7. Also fo the imolation cloak, the discription says 15dmg but the buff icon (in the stat window) says that it's only 10, which is it? If it's 15 I belive it should cost more, and the blink dagger should cost maybe 2honor at least same with the dominate item(that didn't cost honor did it?) I think it should cost honor. Like the merc cap. Having thoughts about the regen insteada insant pots...I unno whether I like it or hate it lol. Also I'm upset only the No-dachi made the realise I was hoping to play the ice spec. Welp til I think of more coments lol. I'm out.
Jesus, press enter more often so that is easier to read and seperate parts from it.
1. Team might have other use for these skills or heros are required elsewhere. I can't remember who said it, but mid lanes now require babysitting to keep them alive.
2. You play only against publics, don't you?
3. You can also use Flying Death, Kaze, Shadow, Way of Death and Flying Daggers or even Airy Charge (I think) to escape from surround.
EDIT: Without forgetting that Order of Six is kinda hard to surround.
4. I suggest you write an actual guide then instead of just short post with few tips and suggestions.
5. The teleporter was changed to regular so people (especially I ;<) won't accidentally walk, jump, charge (whatever) through it, so now AI might intentionally use it unlike before.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Forbidden - 18.09.2006, 23:35
I don't know how long the cooldown for Order of Six right now is, but I dont think reducing the number of images will help either. It should be made like it is in ToB on Miyamoto Musashis Symphony of Swords: powerful in many ways, but with very long cooldown. And we have to keep in mind that when Onmyoji enters the stage we will bring with him yet more AoE damage spells. This will make the images less harmful. It won't be much use now to balance it if Onmyoji proves as one hell of an AoE nuker. It will end in everyone saying that now Order of the Six is underpowered etc. (or not but it could happen)
I don't think it should actually have much done to it right now. Balance it after Onmyoji and other possible heroes will be added in the next version. Still, only thing that could be done in my opinion is making the cooldown very long like in Symphony of Swords.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Viziroth - 20.09.2006, 00:18
Well I have never babysitted a lane, it's just when it's get built up too much I normally(or yell at someone else if i'm fighting someone) to just pop in there, take care of the creeps w/ some sorta AoE and then w/e.
Yeah, mostly play pubies, spread the map around. Sometimes I'll arange a private game with people. And my GG-client thing like refuses to work, and when it does there are no SL games...so yeah, no help there I'm kinda stuck with the public games...So most of my exploits are null and void =P
Only stated the raising dragon as an excape because I noticed people bashing No-dachi and his skills.
I was only said I should post it there because I was rambling on about his combos, wasn't being serious o.O.
And noone answered me if the merchant shrine was changed...
There I used enter xD lol
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Lyncor - 20.09.2006, 03:34
Viziroth: Play with Clan KoNL sometime. US East, channel "Clan KoNL".
If there are people on when you are on (It's a little random), try and get a game going. We'll show you what it's like playing with people who know what they're doing.
Little tip: It's very different. :)
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 20.09.2006, 14:06
Seems like balancing this game is a waste of time, people don`t even answer my answers...
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Viziroth - 20.09.2006, 20:57
OMG, I try to get into the clan channel at least 15times a day, but I can only get in or or two times, and those times I do the only person in there is afk, or searching for a game and will never get a message I leave. *sigh* I'm doomed to pubies...
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Skirn - 20.09.2006, 23:04
[quote=nooK]Seems like balancing this game is a waste of time, people don`t even answer my answers...[/quote]
Sorry about that, don't exactly check the forum often enough.
Quote: Just ro rephrase the changes in 0.8 to both of them.
Important the buff of "Shurikens": No longer damages allies and cooldown from 20 sec to 15, but still not a powerful ability in my opinion: If your enemy only moves a bit and isn`t catching your shurikens like flies, 3-4 of them only hit. If he really moves, he can dodge ethem easily, just turn your angle and run a bit, it`s soo easy to outrun them.
If your enemy is total nub or you are a pro you deserve to deal 300 dmg.
Great in theory, doesn't work out to well in execution. Facing some skilled Ninjas I can tell you that generally they will know when the perfect distance is...The perfect distance being where almost every shuriken will turn into you if you jerk to a direction, but close enough to not be able to be dodged just by running back. In .7, that was fine simply because usually you were in a mess of units and could move behind an enemy unit. In .8 you need to use your own units, which means being offensive to say, kill an enemy hero or start hurting a tower, or possibly you just moved away from your troops to take one of the shops... He can get at least 2 shuriken spells into you if you're just moving, more if he has net, in what is pretty much unavoidable without an exceptionally good reaction time.
[quote="nooK']Kaze 50 more dmg doesn´t mean much in my opinion. Death Poem is only leveled at lategame, being under 500 hp then is pretty risky.[/quote]
Death Poem is my opinion is in fact, still crap. The problem with it isn't the attack speed, it's the fact no skilled Ronin would let himself be out there with 500 HP.
Quote: Now what really matters: Increased cd of Kaze...before you could Kaze all the time also I increased the mana cost of Airy and Flying Death, which makes it quite hard to pull of one spell after another, this is a huge nerf.
On the other hand Airy´s effectivity was buffed a lot. I think you are right, it was too much, but without having people playtesting this in real games with skilled players, balancing stuff perfectly is nearly impossible.
I honestly never found the need to use Kaze more then once in a fight to kill a hero back in .7, meaning now that it's in .8 doing simple combos like FD - > Kaze - > FD will almost instantly kill the non-strength heroes, and do an immense amount of damage to the strength heroes. And that's completely with in mana boundaries without getting items. When you throw in how many Ronins in .8 will just get Kanji stones and Masks to replace the high mana cost, the cost of mana isn't going to balance the damage.
Quote: Also if you play against pubbies, you should consider how often you played this and how often they did. Ofcourse they stand no chance if you play against nubs, you know the game, you know your enemies and you team up. -> You pwn them, if it wouldn´t be like that, what´s skill then for?
Who's to say I never faced a skilled player and just didn't pause and go 'Oh, wow... This is so very overpowered?' Besides, I've played Ronin in .7 against pubbies before, it was a slaughter of course, but compared to .8 it's nothing.
Quote:
Many people complained the bases being so empty, so I added some huts. It still doesn´t look very good, but a lot better than the empty space in 0.7. Also I once thought of giving every player a hut with inventory so you can put items there which you don`t want to lay around (pretty useless I know)
I'll concede on that point. It just looks cluttered.
Quote: 12 fighting mercs (peasants don´t count) is still a lot. Mercs are thought for tactical purposes, ninja-ambushes, quick cavalry rushes, sieging with elite archers...
Not for massing up 50 units and putting expos/towers undefended by an hero down in 10 sec...
You'd be amazed how much they can survive. I've seen 64 Yari attack an outpost, and it took them 2 minutes to take down all the towers... That's plenty of time for a hero to realize what's going on and get down there.
And in a game where all the players are skilled, usually they see it coming ahead of time and are able to stop it before they even reach the towers.
Quote: People complained about immolation cloak being too weak..now it´s too strong..and 15 dmg per second is much? you have to stand full 10 sec nearby an enemy to deal 150 (!) dmg...you see it´s very hard to balance...
That's why I dislike Immolation cloaks in general, it's either worthless or overpowering, there doesn't seem to be a middle. After all, 150 to a single unit isn't 'huge' over 10 seconds... but when you do that to a small group? That's devastating.
Quote: Totally right, adding more spawns in mid was done in the last seconds, I have to apologize. Will lose the archer in the next version.
Whew. That's good to hear.
I'd comment on the No-Dachi thing too, but Tegeus handled that just fine.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Lyncor - 21.09.2006, 08:09
Personally, I don't like the immo cloak at all.
Ever played a game where every hero has it? It's plain ugly. You can't see the kick-ass models, it's hard to tell who's who - and then there's the 15 damage per second for 0 honour.
I personally would just take it out, or replace it with something else.
Also... if you would like proof that Ronin is now overpowered (I got to 14/0 without even trying, my record for a no-death killing spree in 0.7 is 15/0 with SERIOUS effort and teamwork), as is Shinobi (1 sec --> 0.5 sec abstraction nerf did nothing, you need to decrease the % chance or rework the skill. Plus with the new items he can synergy with his skills and become almost literally invulnerable) and No Daichi (He's just, all-up, a tad too uber. Need a small nerf in almost every area, I think, to make playing him require more skill)... I have a replay saved against pubbies where skill started to not matter. Everyone, including first-time players, was able to just hero/item whore like it was dota... :(
That would never happen in 0.7.
I LOVE some of the changes in 0.8, I really do. I just think that 0.7 is, actually, more balanced and far more based on skill and teamwork.
It's for this reason that I think that if we do this right, 0.85 is going to kick some serious ass ;) If we can get what's good about 0.7 back and what's good in 0.8 to stay, while fixing the balance issues and expanding on the map (eg a couple more heroes - Onmyoji? Kunoichi? - and perhaps a terrain select)...
Just imagine how frakkingly awesome this map is going to be.
Keep up the good work, nooK, because I for one appreciate it. If we bitch, it's because we care. :)
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 21.09.2006, 15:18
I basically agree with the rest who've posted. Though I haven't tested 0.8 in settings where all the players know what they're doing, my experience laning against good players backs it up.
Here are a few specific suggestions:
Shinobi
Abstraction still hasn't been nerfed enough. I would support a % reduction rather than nerfing the duration of each pesudo-evade further.
Fear of the Dark stopped being reeeeeally imba a long time ago, IMHO, but I'm still not satisfied with where it is. After much thought, I think I've finally hit on a remake that could work. Instead of dealing damage to all units in the area, I suggest having the skill spawn a large number of dummy units that deal very low damage and attack very quickly (and of course heal the Shinobi for as much damage as they deal). This means that no matter how many creeps are around, you will still have the same DPS, hence life leech, from FotD. With this change, it will no longer be possible to charge into a huge mass of creeps and become unkillable, as you will still be leeching the same amount of life as you would with a smaller number of creeps around. Something like this:
Level 1 - 9 damage per second distributed between nearby enemies.
Level 2 - 18 damage per second distributed between nearby enemies.
Level 3 - 27 damage per second distributed between nearby enemies.
Level 4 - 36 damage per second distributed between nearby enemies.
Level 5 - 45 damage per second distributed between nearby enemies.
What would such a change mean? Well, the skill would become pretty bad for creeping and crowd control, which is a good thing since the Shinobi already has two spells to help him with that (Way of Death and Old Man's Friend). On the other hand, it would become very useful when fighting heroes, but only if you can stick close to your opponent, and there are no creeps around (so, not as good/easy to use as it may seem). Most importantly, you'll finally be able to cap the Shinobi's life leech--in the example above, 450 HP over 10 seconds, which seems pretty reasonable to me at the point you can get level 5 in it.
Hope you'll consider it.
Ronin
Now that we've all seen it in action, I think it's safe to say that the extra 50 damage on Kaze is unnecessary. That can go.
Aside from that minor point, clearly it's not the individual skills that make the Ronin so strong, but his perfect chaining of relatively high damage nukes.
Q: Where's the weak link in the following two chains?
AC --> Kaze --> FD
FD --> Kaze --> AC (as he flees)
A: There is none.
Should that be changed? I would say no; it's this chaining that makes Ronin an appealing hero to play (as I've realised since 0.65, when people were claiming Kaze was useless!). What, then, should change? Clearly, the total damage of his chain.
Okay, maybe that sounds obvious. But I'm not talking about just nerfing the numbers on each individual skill. That would end up being not very satisfying to the player, IMHO (who wants to chain a bunch of spells with piddling damage to add up to a single kill?). Instead, I suggest two changes:
1) Make it veeeeery difficult for someone to pull off two FDs in a single battle or chase. i.e. nerf the cooldown a lot.
2) Drastically rework Airy Charge. As in, make it no longer a nuke. What can it be, then? It can't be a stun--Ronin aleady has two--but I think it can afford to be a minimal damage slow. It would work exactly the same way it does now, except each strike will deal a trivial amount of damage (say, 10-15), but slow the target's attack and move speeds by a certain, additive percentage for 4 seconds, counting from the last strike dealt.
Level 1 - Each strike slows by 8%. 700 cast range.
Level 2 - Each strike slows by 9%. 775 cast range.
Level 3 - Each strike slows by 10%. 850 cast range.
Level 4 - Each strike slows by 11%. 925 cast range.
Level 5 - Each strike slows by 12%. 1000 cast range.
Now the best case scenario for his chain will look like this:
Kaze/FD --> FD/Kaze --> AC --> hit hit hit (opponent will try to disable you here) -->chase some more (opponent has further chances to disable you, or fight back)--> FD
Rather more difficult to pull off! More mana-intensive, too, and makes the Ronin more vulnerable in the process.
I had a third change in mind, which now seems like it might be overkill, but oh well:
3) Increase the speed of FD, but require it to be targetted at an enemy unit. With this change, the Ronin will become a true glass cannon, not a fragile hero who nonetheless never dies because of his escape skill.
Hope I've given you some ideas.
As for the immo cloak, eh, I still don't see it as gamebreaking. Like I said:
Quote: Maybe it's great for non-item-dependent heroes like the Ronin, or sad creep-killers like the Yari, but I think heroes the Warlord, Ninja and No Dachi need other items much more. Immo is a luxury on them.
If there's any problem with it now, it's that it ends up more than paying for itself over the course of a normal-length game. Perhaps you could just rebalance the cost, giving it an honour component. That will make people more hesitant to get what is basically a pure farming/pushing item when they could have spent the honour on hero-killing/ass-saving Skywalker Boots or a shiny stat item from Hashiba the Fallen instead. Don't nerf--rebalance!
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 21.09.2006, 15:35
Oh, and Death Poem still sucks. It's the only skill currently in the game that makes me wish I could pick stats. I can't remember what my suggestion was, so I'm not sure if you implemented it in the end, but if you did, I have to apologise to you; clearly my suggestion was not up to it. -_-
How about instead of making Death Poem a big attack speed boost that's either on or off, you split it up into smaller increments? Say, a 1% increase for every 1% of your maximum health currently missing. That would make it actually useful--which is fair, given that if you nerf the Ronin the way I've suggested, he may actually have to do a bit of fighting (instead of just spell-casting) to get his kills, or when trying to make an escape.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 21.09.2006, 16:05
Quote: I honestly never found the need to use Kaze more then once in a fight to kill a hero back in .7, meaning now that it's in .8 doing simple combos like FD - > Kaze - > FD will almost instantly kill the non-strength heroes, and do an immense amount of damage to the strength heroes. And that's completely with in mana boundaries without getting items. When you throw in how many Ronins in .8 will just get Kanji stones and Masks to replace the high mana cost, the cost of mana isn't going to balance the damage.
Why didn`t it kill in 0.7 so much? Because of the 50 extra dmg on Kaze?...
For me it´s like that: Killing someone in 0.7 was hard, you achieved it, and now it`s a lot easier, you find it too easy to kill.
But it`s just more action now, game is speeded up, games no longer last 2,5 hours...
About Immo cloak:
There is a reason that those 4 new items don´t require honor: Decreasing the snowball effect. One team kills, gets honor and better items, other team can`t buy items because they all require honor -> big gap between both teams. That`s why there are "alternative" items for them, which don´t require honor.
As already stated it will deal 10dmg/sec in the next version. And buying such an item on most heroes is already now (imo) a very bad tactic when you can have so much more useful items.
About Shinobi:
I´ll redo Abstraction, if it`s done, there will no changes be needed on Fear of the Dark, I will tell you more soon. Nevertheless thanks for your suggestion cromis.
About Ronin:
Kaze: The 50 extra dmg makes no difference in my opinion, 400 dmg on lvl5 just looks better ;)
And I agree, nerfing the damage of all of his abilities would feel strange when playing him.
The critical point is Flying Death, even if there is a small delay, it most times hits hard (move, move, move if you´re against Ronin). Decreasing the cooldown should be a good way, as already some more cooldown seconds can destroy the chain-effect. 13 -> 15 seconds should be fine I guess.
Kaze stun will also be reduced to 1 sec.
About the Airy change: I would prefer that it acts the way it does now, but if all these changes don´t work we have to rework airy. Suggestion is a good one.
About Order of the Six:
5 images should be killable, what do you think?
Quote: Keep up the good work, nooK, because I for one appreciate it. If we bitch, it's because we care.
Thanks, I know i sounded a bit harsh, but sometimes it`s quite disappointing to hear that the older version was better (when working so long on 0.8), because of some balance issues (0.7 heal >>> all). No one told me that stuff in the betas...
Comment pls, 0.85 go go go ;)
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Forbidden - 21.09.2006, 20:27
We all have faith in you nooK. Keep at it. As Lyncor said:
Quote: If we bitch, it's because we care.
Also I had an idea on how to make abstraction less powerful. It's pretty simple really: Make it a low manacost autocast ability with some cooldown. Something like:
Abstraction (autocast)
Phases the hero out of existence into another dimension avoiding all damage for 0.5 seconds. 10 mana.
level 1 - 9 sec cooldown
level 2 - 7.5 sec cooldown
level 3 - 6 sec cooldown
level 4 - 4.5 sec cooldown
level 5 - 3 sec cooldown
Balance and tinker it further from there. The duration could also change with levels. You figure out what's best. But that was my basic idea. It would also save you the trouble of reworking Fear of the Dark. Although I must say, I find tegeus-cromis suggestion very interesting and if done right it could look pretty damn nice too. It would kinda fit his theme of distraction and illusions (on par with Old mans friend).
Also about abstraction, if he phases into another dimension, why is it that he can damage the other units even if others can't damage him? It just doesn't seem realistic. I suggest removing his ability to attack when abstraction is active, but let him still be able to cast spells. It would make abstraction more like a defensive skill.
I'd like to hear your opinion tegeus on my abstraction idea, you often have many good points.
About No-Daichis ultimate suggestion nooK: 'Order of the Five' sounds so much crappier than 'Order of the Six' :(
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Viziroth - 21.09.2006, 21:16
No-dachi's ulti would look neater with only five, and yes it would be easier to kill and harder to kill with. But you'd have to change the name simply cause order of the five doesn't sound at all good... Also, kill No-dachi while he's using order of the six doesn't count as a kill since well, the order are technically creeps, did you mean for it not to be a kill? or were you just to lazy for the trigger to count it as one? lol =P
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 22.09.2006, 10:56
nooK: Quote: There is a reason that those 4 new items don´t require honor: Decreasing the snowball effect. One team kills, gets honor and better items, other team can`t buy items because they all require honor -> big gap between both teams. That`s why there are "alternative" items for them, which don´t require honor.
But immo cloak is not an alternative to anything. It does its own thing.
If any kind of alternative is needed, IMHO, it's focused stat items that don't take honour.
Quote: As already stated it will deal 10dmg/sec in the next version. And buying such an item on most heroes is already now (imo) a very bad tactic when you can have so much more useful items.
Eh, maybe you could hold that for the moment. I really really don't see it as needing nerfing right now beyond price tweaks.
Quote: I´ll redo Abstraction, if it`s done, there will no changes be needed on Fear of the Dark, I will tell you more soon. Nevertheless thanks for your suggestion cromis.
No problem. Waiting to see what you'll do with Abstraction. :) A cooldown like what Forbidden suggested sounds like it would work well.
Quote: The critical point is Flying Death, even if there is a small delay, it most times hits hard (move, move, move if you´re against Ronin). Decreasing the cooldown should be a good way, as already some more cooldown seconds can destroy the chain-effect. 13 -> 15 seconds should be fine I guess.
Yep, sounds good.
Quote: Kaze stun will also be reduced to 1 sec.
Not necessary IMHO. The stun period is usually used to chain FD, not to attack, and the Ronin's attack sucks anyway. Meaningless change.
Quote: 5 images should be killable, what do you think?
Eh, I dunno. More killable, of course, but killable, period? Hm.
Hey, here's an idea: have an effect to indicate which image the No Dachi will reappear at! One of them could have a certain aura, for instance, and you would then know which one to follow and make the No Dachi player have to be a lot more careful when he's down to his last 2-3 images. This would also lead to some interesting tactics, like escaping by scattering your images, then when they chase the marked image, intentionally getting it killed so your eappearance point switches to a different (hopefully safer!) image. Couple this with the image death = slight amounts of damage when you reappear idea I mentioned earlier and I think you wouldn't need to make any nerfs to OotS at all.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Forbidden - 22.09.2006, 13:43
Immo cloak issue, huh? Kinda agree with cromis here. It should be pretty much fine as it is. Nerfing it to 10 dmg/sec though could be ok.
I don't see why so many of you bitch about it...If you don't like it you dont have to buy it. Get something else. What point would there be if all items were just similar? It's nice to have items that give different effects.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 22.09.2006, 14:32
Quote: If any kind of alternative is needed, IMHO, it's focused stat items that don't take honour.
Just suggest some ;)
Quote: Not necessary IMHO. The stun period is usually used to chain FD, not to attack, and the Ronin's attack sucks anyway. Meaningless change.
Now as Flying Death cd was increased by 2 seconds to 15 sec, it matters more. Also I increased Kaze cd to 80 sec.
Just played a testgame with 0.85 B1 with omerta, he was Ronin and I Yumi. We both leveled first and when meeting at top he was 2 levels higher than me. He killed me some times, but it seemed quite balanced, as he was host and is a very good Ronin player.
I will do more testgames but it seems like this 3 changes nerf the Ronin enough:
- Kaze cooldown to 80 sec
- Kaze stun reduced to 1 sec
- Flying Death cooldown to 15 sec
Quote: Hey, here's an idea: have an effect to indicate which image the No Dachi will reappear at! One of them could have a certain aura, for instance, and you would then know which one to follow and make the No Dachi player have to be a lot more careful when he's down to his last 2-3 images. This would also lead to some interesting tactics, like escaping by scattering your images, then when they chase the marked image, intentionally getting it killed so your eappearance point switches to a different (hopefully safer!) image. Couple this with the image death = slight amounts of damage when you reappear idea I mentioned earlier and I think you wouldn't need to make any nerfs to OotS at all.
Hm imo this doesn´t help at all as you can only follow one image. Killing 5 of them should be posible if reacting fast, one Dragon Soul or Fujin´s breath, all gone...
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 22.09.2006, 14:45
It does help, nooK. Think of those situations when two or three images are left alive. Knowing which one your enemy will respawn at makes a hell of a difference.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Lyncor - 24.09.2006, 03:10
Quote: 3) Increase the speed of FD, but require it to be targetted at an enemy unit. With this change, the Ronin will become a true glass cannon, not a fragile hero who nonetheless never dies because of his escape skill.
Please never do this :)
Quote:
- Kaze cooldown to 80 sec
- Kaze stun reduced to 1 sec
- Flying Death cooldown to 15 sec
Not sure why the Kaze cooldown is so drastically high, especially if the stun is reduced to 1 second. Currently the cooldown is about 20-25 seconds, correct?
I think 60 would be better than 80. Otherwise, personally, I'll just not stick levels in it until FD/Airy are Level 5. I'd rather have skills I can use all the time.
Besides, it's his ULTI. It's supposed to be good!
Another thing that a lot of people don't seem to quite realise... killing heroes is what Ronin does. That's right - he's a hero killer, plain and simple.
Sure, he can take out creep with FD. But far less so now, with the 90 mana cost and 15 sec cooldown. Airy is useless on creep, as is Kaze. Death Poem is still... well... only useful in an emergency. His normal attack, compared with someone like ninja, also sucks. This makes him suck at killing towers, unless he has L5 death poem, the towers are not focused on him and there are no enemy heroes around.
He's -supposed- to be able to kill heroes well, 'cause he's not terribly useful for much else besides defending! It's just that in 0.8, he kills 'em too well :P
Enough ranting though.
- Kaze cooldown to 60 sec
- Kaze stun reduced to 1 sec
- Flying Death cooldown to 15 sec
That is my suggestion.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Omerta - 24.09.2006, 10:23
Double, Lync, Kaze cooldown is 50 secs. Imo 80 secs is maybe a bit too high but 60 a bit too low, so let's say that 70 secs.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Lyncor - 24.09.2006, 22:20
Oh ok. Wow, it doesn't seem that long :D
Then again I may be referring to the 0.7 length. I dunno.
70 sec sounds fine, then.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 30.09.2006, 15:44
70 yes.
Also:
The new Abstraction has a cooldown.
Shinobi abstracts-5 sec no abstraction-then the chance of x% to abstract again when hit.
Should the cooldown change with level?
Big thanks for Vexorian on this :)
Re: Feelings on 0.8
tegeus-Cromis - 30.09.2006, 21:42
Uh, 5 seconds between procs seems rather long. Do you think you might be overnerfing it?
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 30.09.2006, 23:13
Quote: Should the cooldown change with level?
The 5 sec were just an example.
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Lyncor - 01.10.2006, 23:34
I think that this will work MUCH better. Good job, Vexorian. :)
And yeah, I think cooldown should change with level. Just as long as it doesn't get too low, or doesn't remain too high.
Suggestion (Just thrown together, really, so probably flawed) as a ballpark figure of the kind of thing that I think would work:
Level 1 - 7 seconds.
Level 2 - 6 seconds.
Level 3 - 5 seconds.
Level 4 - 4 seconds.
Level 5 - 3 seconds.
With this kind of cooldown, going back to the 0.7 1 second duration would work just fine.
The % chance should be as in 0.7 (Increasing with level), I reckon. The cooldown is the balancing factor, meaning you just have to be smarter when fighting Shinobi - eg, don't start with a good skill. Start with a normal melee attack, trigger Abstraction, THEN do a good skill. It makes Abstraction more of a skill-ability, for both the Shinobi player and his would-be killer.
Reasoning?
Once Abstraction triggers, the Shinobi can run to and fro - trying to avoid getting hit - while waiting for the ability to cooldown. Meanwhile, he can use Way of Death (Which is a bit better now with the damage buff) to deal some damage while he runs around. Fear of the Dark can be used to creep, and to help a little in melee I guess, while his image can fight for him as he does the avoidance between Abstractions.
Previously, in 0.7 and 0.8, hero-fighting with the Shinobi generally seems to consist of "Run at enemy hero, turn on ulti, way of death, slash at him. Hope he dies. Maybe way of death him again as he tries to run? Use Fear of the Dark if he stays in melee range for long enough?" - or the choice for the high level shinobi.. "See enemy hero, ignore it and keep whacking the outpost. He can't hurt you." Of course, everything changes once you're teaming with another hero eg Ronin - but hey, that's another story. You'll always use different tactics there, and it's harder to predict.
Not sure whether it will end up actually working like I described, but I imagine so. Sure sounds like a lot more fun for both the Shinobi and the attacker, doesn't it?
Re: Feelings on 0.8
nooK - 02.10.2006, 16:45
Sounds like more fun yes, and you can test it right now if it`s more fun ;)
Cooldown of Abstraction ranges from 5-3 sec.
Released 0.82!
Re: Feelings on 0.8
Anonymous - 04.10.2006, 02:32
Hey there,
I dont know if this has been adressed yet (Havnt had the time to read the whole thread through word for word) But the immo cloak..
I agree with the other guys its not that good an addition to the game. I personally dont like any of those new items in the top shop, seems to be getting a bit Dota'ish but you may like them so thats cool.
But more to my point, i found in a game a whee while back that with a Yari's Oni turned on and a 9 Headed Dragon i was LIFE STEALING the damage from my immo.. now THAT just seemed wrong..
Forget rings of health and regen, get some immo and life steal.
Thought this should be pointed out.
Cheers,
Mac
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Hero voices - gepostet von nooK am Mittwoch 03.05.2006
Ideas for new ver! - gepostet von Kensai-Of-War am Montag 12.11.2007
Jade Warrior - gepostet von Omerta am Montag 21.08.2006
DOTA Song! - gepostet von Lord.DarthVader am Samstag 20.01.2007
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