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Re: Robert Lockwood Jr. Interview by Bob Margolin
DBJ - 08.04.2005, 03:18Robert Lockwood Jr. Interview by Bob Margolin
March 27th, 2005, Robert Lockwood Jr. celebrated his 90th birthday. This is an interview that was done in January and Blues Wax Ezine issue it in two parts. The March 31st issue and the April 7th issue. I'll break into 4 parts. There is some very good audio in the links.
Lockwood is one a few greats that were pioneers in the Blues, and is still playing. Enjoy, this is one of a kind. :lol:
BluesWax Sittin' In With
The Legend
Robert Lockwood, Jr.
By Steady Rollin' Bob Margolin
Little Milton put it into perspective: At a press conference for the big Blues show at Lincoln Center last January, the legendary Milton pulled Robert Lockwood, Jr. to the forefront and made sure everyone knew how much all the guitar players on the show owe Robert and how much we respect him.
Sam Lay, Little Milton, Robert Lockwood Jr., and Henry Gray
Photo © Dick Waterman
In professional and artistic recognition of particularly influential guitar players, I've used the _expression "guitar player's guitar player." Robert is certainly even a level beyond that, not only for the great players that he's influenced, but even more for music he has made, the creative guitar parts he played on many of the classic songs of Chicago Blues by Doctor Clayton, Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, Eddie Boyd, Sunnyland Slim, and Otis Spann. His own recordings are also Blues classics, like Take A Little Walk With Me and Little Boy Blue and Mean Black Spider Blues. Robert is a deep and poetic songwriter and a plaintive, Bluesy singer as well as one of the most important guitar players ever.
The most striking difference between Robert and the other Chicago Blues guitar legends of his generation is not in musical stature, but that Robert is still with us. And Robert isn't sitting back in a rocking chair, gumming, "I used to..." His newest album is The Legend Live on M.C. Records, and he's nominated for a 2005 W.C. Handy Award in the Traditional Male Blues Artist category.
Early in the morning after I'd done a show with Robert in Albuquerque in 2003, I was sitting in the hotel lobby drowsily crunching a hard biscuit in congealed gravy when I looked out the window and saw Robert actually running by. Hauling ass, too. Robert always took care of himself and when he was recently complimented he doesn't look over 80, he corrected "60." He performs often and actually seems to be at the peak of his musical powers. He has learned and grown continuously since he started playing in the 1920s. In addition to his longevity and creativity, he had an inspirational teacher.
Most of you already know it was none other than Robert Johnson. Johnson was living with Lockwood's mother and he taught the young Robert Jr. how to play his songs. Robert Lockwood, Jr. is certainly the most direct musical link to Robert Johnson, but he accomplished that way before Johnson passed in 1937. As you will hear him tell below, Robert later played with older musicians who knew Jazz and standards, and he developed a love for more sophisticated music while never letting go of his Delta Blues roots. The marriage of styles is happily consummated in Robert's instantly recognizable guitar playing and his playing elevates, frames, and adds style to the recordings of his famous collaborators. Robert Lockwood, Jr. went on to be the legendary innovator on electric guitar that Robert Johnson didn't survive to be.
I hope my words above and the interview below will honor Robert Lockwood, Jr., a Giant of American Music. His 90th birthday was March 27, and there's no better time to celebrate and thank him for his great music. When we were on the Blues Express - Legends of the Blues show in New York in January, I came to town a night early to interview Robert for BluesWax. I had recently installed pro recording software on my laptop and brought along a good microphone to record the interview. I wanted to capture Robert's expressive voice as well as present his words on paper. It was very cold in New York City and the loud fan-forced heat in my hotel room, where we did the interview, was on constantly. I turned it off so that the interview sound wouldn't be ruined and in the 48 minutes we spoke, it sure got cool in that room, but I got a great recording of Robert speaking. I think it's even cooler that you can click on the links after you read some of Robert's words below and hear him speaking them. I have transcribed the interview as close as possible to the way we spoke it, though without every little "uh," or incomplete thought. I have edited the interview, but I have neither changed Robert's words nor taken them out of context. When an explanation of what we said was needed, for those of you who don't know the old people and songs we brought up, I put it in brackets.
I hoped that my deliberately loose questions would inspire Robert to talk about what he wanted to, but Robert usually completely ignored them anyway, which is even better. His words, on subjects that he brought up, reveal the man and the artist behind his sublime Blues.
Bob Margolin for BluesWax: You know, one of the best things you can say about a guitar player is that you can always recognize his sound and you're one of the very few who has created his own sound and his own style. It seems to be a combination of Delta Blues and the Jazz sound that you were just talking about while we were at dinner. Do you want to talk about how those two styles go together with you? Because it seems to be a very special thing, you can always hear Robert when...
Robert Lockwood, Jr.: Well, you know I was with Chess and Checker [record companies] for about twelve or thirteen years and I was playing with everybody, so that's where all the styles come from 'cause I was workin' with everybody, all the Jazz musicians and Blues musicians, I was working with everybody.
BW: I hear a much Jazzier sound than a lot of the Chicago and the Delta people were using so you must have been listening to something besides just what you learned straight from Robert Johnson too...
RL: Yeah, I worked with just about everybody who worked for Chess. My method has been everybody who I work with, I try to do what I think would help them. Almost all the harmonica players ... I was lucky, I was very lucky ... My beginning was with Robert Johnson and Robert was so far ahead of his time until it put me way ahead of my own time. So I'm very fortunate that I was able to do it. I started to playin', I started off playin' an old organ that you pump the air into it with your foot pedal - I started playing that about when I was eight years old. So Robert showed up when I was 13 and I was on to Robert for about maybe about four years and before anybody know anything, I was playin'. (Listen to Mr. Lockwood 1)
BW: Well
continued in Part 2
Re: Robert Lockwood Jr. Interview by Bob Margolin
DBJ - 08.04.2005, 03:23PART 2
This is Part 2 of 4
BW: Well you sure seem to be doin' good. I guess you see a lot of folks you used to play with...
RL: And you know when I first begin to playin', I was always playin' with somebody who was old enough for my Daddy and Granddaddy and by me bein' able to do this, it made me really learn how to play. So me and Sonny Boy went on King Biscuit Time and then one of the owners couldn't get along, so I quit King Biscuit Time and was fixin' to go back to Chicago and the man who owned the radio station, Mother's Best Flour people got in touch with him and he hit on my about workin' for Mother's Best, in the same studio. And I had to put a band together and the band that I put together was all Jazz musicians. That's how I learned to play the Jazz. See when I got them, they taught me how to play the Jazz and I taught them how to play the Blues. So when I once got started with it I liked the whole thing. I stuck with it. (Listen to Mr. Lockwood 2)
BW: You have a great combination of that, even when I hear you play the Robert Johnson-style songs, you throw in your own turnarounds [the end part of a Blues chord progression that sends you to the next verse] and I've never heard anybody do those [Robert laughs] kind of turnarounds in E where I think there's like an F chord in there or something like that, I've watched you play ... Do you want to tell anybody what that is or do you want to just take it with you?
RL: My thinkin' about playin' music was Blues begin with three changes and by me learning how to play Jazz and Blues, I just fell in love with more than three changes. And most of the things I do got more than three changes. So right now I've got two doctor's degrees and one of the doctor's degrees gives me credit for professor of American music, because a lot of things I do musicians wasn't invented, you know. I've been pretty lucky.
BW: Well, I'm sure, just to be alive and to have worked with a lot of great people, but the first word I would think of if I was thinkin' about you would be "creative." You are one of the creators of a style of music - those things that you were playing behind Little Walter and Sonny Boy, they weren't heard before. I heard them later on from Jimmy Rogers and from Louis Myers - those guys were right up under you, but I think that you took the Delta style and what you were thinking about with the Jazz changes and put them together in a way that really, really worked. It's funkier than smooth and sweet Jazz styling and stuff, but there's a lot more going on harmonically than there is in just straight Blues too though, when I think about those turnarounds that you do in [the key of] E, like when you do "Take A Little Walk," or something like that...
RL: You know Walter done "My Baby Don't Stand No Cheatin'" ("My Babe"). Now the whole system of that song -- I done it. Wasn't but one guitar on it, I played the melody and then I played the bass. I don't know all the things that I worked on, I done the very best that I thought would help the song. Yeah, I played the chords with Walter, then I played the bass behind it on the guitar - "My Baby Don't Stand No Cheatin'." Wasn't but one guitar on there. But I dubbed it back on there.
BW: I didn't know that.
RL: And it was a hit!
BW: That was a big hit! Let me ask you about another song that you did with Walter that had a really different approach, "Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights." [Robert doesn't understand what I'm saying, then remembers the song...]
RL: Oh yeah, I played on that too.
BW: Now you put a lot more than the three changes on that one. That one was very Jazzy...
RL: Yes it was, yes it was...
BW: I guess Walter wanted to go in that direction too, huh?
RL: Yeah, well all the things I done with Walter was different from what he would have done if he had just learned all by himself. My ideas was, uh, seemed to have been working pretty good.
BW: Well, not only did you make their records sound good, but you made a style and a legacy for yourself as well...
RL: Well, I wasn't thinkin' 'bout no "self," I was only thinkin' about makin' Walter sound good. I'd say 90% of the guitar players, when they play with the harp players, the guitar players wants to play, wants to stand out more than the harp player do, you know? They want to play licks when the harp is supposed to be doin' that, you understand? And I always try to play chords for the harp to play. It worked! (Listen to Mr. Lockwood 3)
BW: As a guitar player that's been studying this stuff and fell in love with it and lived my life around it, let me give you a real big "Thank you..."!
RL: Thank you, thank you so much.
BW: ...because every night I get up there - and I play with a lot of harp players and when I'm there, the very best stuff to play is the style that you did, that you want to hear. There's more primitive things that can work too, you know Muddy was a real strong guitar player, but in a totally different style. He knew how to "get in and out" [Muddy's _expression] and "fill in the cracks" [Jimmy Rogers' _expression] and everything with the harp, but you went to a bunch of places where the other ones just don't go and you drove a lot of guitar players crazy with that shit! I mean that in a good way! One thing Muddy used to say is that some good players are natural-born and some you can build with a hammer and nails...
RL: [Laughs heartily]
BW: ...I'll tell you the truth: I think he kind of built me with a hammer and nails because I didn't know shit when I got in that band, I had...
RL: You know I used to try and teach Mud -- Muddy Waters and Big Bill Broonzy, both of 'em. And each one of them would tell me the same thing: "You can't teach no old dog new tricks." Yeah, both of them would tell me the same thing: "I would never be able to play that shit."
BW: Yeah, I think the Jazzy stuff, that's a whole different world for them, and they played what they played real well. Do you feel like your own talent was natural or do you feel like you had to really work and study and...
RL: Well I think what really have helped me so much was working as a sideman with all these different people. It really helped me. So, I got that to be thankful for. When I put that band together, them guys didn't know nothing but old standards and I learned how to play the old standards with them and then I taught them how to play the Blues. I guess maybe by me bein' playin' with the Jazz and the Blues made me have a pretty wide range, you know? So far, so good.
To be continued...
Bob Margolin is a contributing editor at BluesWax. Bob may be contacted at blueswax@visnat.com.
CONGRATULATIONS!!! " garwin1 " is this week's winner of the BluesWax CD Prize Pack: a Sean Costello CD, Sean Costello from Tone-Cool Records. Go to the Backstage to collect your prizes. Remember to play the quiz each week for your chance to win great prizes!
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Re: Robert Lockwood Jr. Interview by Bob Margolin
DBJ - 08.04.2005, 03:27PART 3 of 4
Part 3.
BluesWax Sittin' In With
The Legend
Robert Lockwood, Jr.
Part Two
By Steady Rollin' Bob Margolin
Robert Lockwood, Jr.
Photo by Scott Allen of vividpix.com
In Part One (if you missed Part One click HERE to read it now) Bob Margolin started his conversation with arguably one of the most influential guitar players ever. From playing on the classic Chicago recordings of Doctor Clayton, Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, Eddie Boyd, Sunnyland Slim, and Otis Spann to his own classic recordings like "Take A Little Walk With Me," "Little Boy Blue," and "Mean Black Spider Blues." We left off last week with Bob and Robert discussing his Jazz playing and recording with some fine Jazz musicians. Just like last week, we include a sample of Mr. Lockwood speaking with Bob for an audio download. Enjoy this interview with one of the true legends as we celebrate his 90th birthday...
Bob Margolin for BluesWax: Well, you're still doin' it and when you play, even by yourself, I hear that you still throw some of those Jazz changes in there. Can you even just tell me what you're doing in the key of E when you do those chord changes coming down from the turnaround? I've watched you...
Robert Lockwood, Jr.: You know, what have happened to me, I became accustomed to wanting to hear something a little different and by me getting all that wisdom and all that teachin' I was gettin' from workin' with all these damn people, I just started feelin' 'round and see what would work. And I always come up with something nice ... knock on wood [knocks on the microphone, which is not wood].
BW: Well, it's beautiful music to me and every night I play, there's always gotta be some of that in there. I've got it in my ear and when I hear the songs that you recorded on, the thing that messes me up is that like now, I'll be playing with [James] Cotton tomorrow night, when we do our little Muddy thing there and if he hits certain tunes, if he hits a Little Walter tune or somethin' like that, I'm going to have to...
RL: Talkin' 'bout Cotton?
BW: Yeah.
RL: [Laughs]
BW: I'm going to have to play your stuff right after you've gone on already which is a funny position for me to be in.
RL: Don't wait 'til after I go on - you play whatever you think you want to play any time you want to play it, it don't bother me. [Robert perhaps thought I meant "after you've gone on" as in "gone on to his reward," but I only meant "gone on" as in performing onstage after him on the show the next night.]
BW: I love what you did on that stuff. When we were in West Virginia [Heritage Music Blues Festival in Wheeling, August 2004] and you came out early to that show we did the night before you played? Jerry Portnoy played "Blue Midnight." [Actually, Jerry's harp instrumental is called "In A Dream," but it's very reminiscent of Little Walter's, "Blue Midnight."]
RL: Oh, yeah.
BW: And what else could I do? ["Blue Midnight" is a Little Walter slow Blues instrumental and Robert played beautiful backup guitar on the original. I play Robert's licks when I back up Jerry's powerful version of the song.]
RL: [Laughs]
BW: ...Even though you had just been on the bandstand shakin' my hand a minute before, but that's ... I'm happy to be in that situation. I love Muddy Waters...
RL: I'm really glad for somebody else to learn how to do it.
BW: Someday when we're both holding guitars, I need to get you to show me those turnarounds...
RL: I'll be glad to. I didn't know Cotton was on this [the Lincoln Center show]. I don't think my wife knows either - they come up together...
BW: I think he ought to be there tomorrow.
RL: I'll be glad to see him, I'm always glad to see him.
BW: He sure plays with a lot of force and feeling. I always enjoy him quite a bit. He likes to sneak up on the bandstand, you'll be going along and he'll decide he wants to play and he'll just come up and just take it away from whoever the harp player is.
RL: You know the first band that Cotton had I gave it to him. You didn't know that, did you?
BW: No, I sure didn't. Probably before I was around...
RL: I gave Cotton the first band and was going to be one of the sidemen. And that fool wouldn't follow it, wouldn't take it.
BW: Well, he always was one of those people gotta do things his own way even if it hurts him.
RL: Yeah, Cotton come from under me, Little Walter come from under me, both of 'em. 'Bout both of 'em was about the same type of age, like twelve and thirteen years old.
BW: Dave Myers once told me that Walter just really wanted to play a lot of Jazz, but Chess wouldn't let him, they just wanted him to play straight Blues like his hits...
RL: You say Dave Myers? You say Dave played the harp?
BW: No, Dave said that Walter just wanted to play a lot of Jazz...
RL: Oh yeah. Did you know Count Basie made "Off the Wall?" [A Little Walter instrumental, which featured Robert on guitar]
BW: Did he really?
RL: Count Basie!
BW: No kidding
RL: Yeah ... Count Basie had done "Off the Wall" after Walter had cut it. Yeah, Walter was one of the ones that want to swing that harp.
BW: He was pretty special too, he really had his own sound, he really swung when he played. Below [drummer Fred Below] sounded real good on all those records too. He had some Jazz in there too, so...
RL: Walter went to Carnegie Hall too, did you know that?
BW: No, I didn't.
RL: Oh yeah. Yeah, Walter went to Carnegie Hall with "Off the Wall."
BW: It's a great, great song. It just came together so good and the guitar, like answers all those harp licks in there, it's right there to hold them up and back 'em up and then answer, fill in the cracks and it's really hard to hear. Most people today seem to just want to play a part - they decide what they want to do and they don't listen to the other musicians...
RL: Mmm-hmm. When Walter first recorded, he had The Aces - three Aces, big Fred Below and Dave and Louis [Myers brothers] and when Louis quit and Walter come to me on his knees and I went...I thought...I took Louis' place and we started to recordin', and now in the way I am with things, I was doing to back Walter up, was not like what Louis was saying, so that means I had to go in another different direction. But it worked, it worked real good.
BW: Let me ask, move on to somethin' else for a minute and I've always been wonderin' for you, what is it that attracts you to 12-string guitar?
RL: Ah, you know my wife Ann was workin' at a...in the University Circle in Cleveland and a kid had a 12-string guitar, the Guild guitar that I've got - and he only had six strings on it and the guitar was brand new, and the boy sold it to my wife, I think for $75. At that time, the guitar was sellin' for $800, at that particular time. When she brought the guitar home it had six strings on it, one of the keys [tuning pegs] was broken and the guard plate [pick guard] was off the guitar and you could look at the guitar and tell it was new, but it belonged to a kid. So when she brought it home and I looked at it, I went down to Soldier Music and he had that picture of the guitar on the wall. You come in the door and you look back and you look right up over the door. I looked back up over the door and seen the guitar and I said, "Well I'll be damned, that's the same guitar I got at the house." And I went straight out and went back home and got the guitar and brought it back down there and Soldier was excited. And one of the keys was broke and it had six strings on it and there wasn't no guard plate on it. Now the set of strings and the guard plate and a set of keys cost me $28. I still got the guitar, one of the best guitars I got.
Re: Robert Lockwood Jr. Interview by Bob Margolin
DBJ - 08.04.2005, 03:30PART 4 of 4
4 of 4
BW: What year was that?
RL: That was about...nineteen...sixty...five. It's one of the best guitars I got right now, I got about nine guitars. Now there's about four different companies done gave me guitars. Washburn gave me a guitar, uh, Fender gave me a guitar, and the blue guitar that I'm playin' now - a company in Japan made the guitar and brought that to me for one of my birthdays in Chicago. And I got a 12-string Gibson guitar that my bass player bought for me.
BW: Why do you like the 12-strings over the six?
RL: Well I tell you what - after my wife bought that guitar there and put the strings on it, the guitar sit around for about two years before I really start' to playin' it, because at that particular time I had a band. So I started to play the guitar by myself and that's when I really seen that by havin' twelve strings it's much fuller than the six-string and I really started to playin' it. Then I started playin' it and I played and got used to it and I played it with the band too. And I been playin' it ever since.
BW: And that's got to be part of your sound for the last 35 years or so.
RL: Yeah.
BW: I wanted to ask you about some of the songs we were talkin' about - the song "That's Alright" before - do you want to get into what happened with that?
RL: Ha...
BW: I mean, I heard that, I mean I heard a long time ago that you really wrote that song - most people put it with Jimmy Rogers.
RL: And Mud [Muddy Waters] come down South, we was on King Biscuit Time. I just had wrote the song and they [Muddy and his guitar player, Jimmy Rogers] heard me playin' it and when they went back to Chicago and went on there and cut it [the song was a hit for Jimmy Rogers, later for Junior Parker, and is considered a classic]. And really at that time if he asked me for the song, I'd have gave it to him. I coulda taken it back any time I wanted, I could get it back now if I wanted.
BW: Did you and Jimmy fall out over that?
RL: No, no. (Listen to Mr. Lockwood)
BW: How about another song that's really a classic of Blues is that "Take A Little Walk With Me."
RL: Yeah, that was one of my first recordings, "Take A Little Walk With Me" and "Train My Baby," and "Mean Black Spider Blues," and "Little Boy Blue." That was my first recording session on Bluebird, that's RCA Victor. I went there when I left home, I left St. Louis, me and Dr. Clayton, and went to Chicago and I played on Doc's first records and I played on my own and made my own records.
BW: I've heard a lot of versions of...
RL: That was 1940...
BW: You say you'd written it back that long ago, huh? Wow!
RL: Yeah.
BW: Of the songs that you've written, do you have a favorite?
RL: Well no, not really. All of 'em I wrote, I like 'em, you know. And unfortunately I was recording for people who really didn't mean too much, they wasn't doin' no pushin'. Some of the songs I wrote would have been hits, but there wasn't nobody pushin' 'em, so...
BW: Some of those tunes are the real standards of...
RL: If I'd have done some of them things for Chess I'd a got a hit out of it, some of it...some of 'em... [sighs]
BW: Well how did that work out? Did you have a problem with those people or they didn't want to record you out front, or...
RL: No, they was just little people and they wasn't able to push 'em, you know?
BW: Mmm-hmm.
RL: Pushin' is advertisin', you have to pay people to play 'em, no? Unfortunately, Leonard knew that pushin' 'em would make 'em sell. So Leonard Chess made Muddy Waters 'cause there wasn't nobody with Chess, everybody had done quit but Mud. And there was a guy who had a radio program and I can't call his name right off, but he had a radio program and him and Leonard was friends and he would play Leonard's stuff every day. And Leonard didn't have nothin' to play but Muddy Waters, so when he know, when Leonard knows anything, he done made a giant out of Muddy Waters.
BW: Well Muddy used to say when people asked him he was bitter about the way...
RL: About the way Chess treated him?
BW: Yeah.
RL: Pssh!
BW: He said, "Well, uh,"
RL: Do you know...
BW: He said, "Well I made them millionaires, but..."
RL: Do you know Chess was buying Muddy a Cadillac? He was buying Muddy a car, he was buying Walter a car, there was about three or four people. He was gettin' maybe two Cadillacs for hisself, he was buyin' about five Cadillacs every two years, and by buyin' that many at a time, he got a great big deduction.
BW: There's always some money in there somewhere, ain't there?
RL: He was getting a big deduction; he was able to sell them cars to all them people for, oh say, one-third or two-thirds of the price. He was buyin' five or six cars at a time. He would buy Walter a Cadillac and a station wagon, and he was buyin' Muddy Waters whatever he wanted - every two years, every two, three years they was buyin' new cars...and Chess was pushin' his records and he had a right and everything he did he had a right to do it, because if it hadn't a been for him, the records wouldn't have been done. They wouldn't a been doin' nothin'.
Photo by Scott Allen of vividpix.com
To be continued...
Steady Rollin' Bob Margolin is a contributing editor at BluesWax. Bob may be contacted at blueswax@visnat.com.
CONGRATULATIONS!!! " Topfive1 " is this week's winner of the BluesWax CD Prize Pack: a Suncoast Blues Society sampler CD, Suncoast Blues, Vol. 2, and a various artists CD, This Is The Blues Harmonica, Vol 2 from Delmark Records. Go to the Backstage to collect your prizes. Remember to play the quiz each week for your chance to win great prizes!
Other fine Visionation publications. My Page To unsubscribe
Blueswax is an electronic publication from Visionation.
Copyright © 2000-2005 Visionation, Ltd. All rights reserved.
The HTML graphics in this message
Re: Robert Lockwood Jr. Interview by Bob Margolin
rhuN - 08.04.2005, 10:17
don't you agree that it would have been way better to post the link instead? :)
Mit folgendem Code, können Sie den Beitrag ganz bequem auf ihrer Homepage verlinken
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