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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Omerta - Galefury - nooK - tegeus-Cromis - Vladhslavh - Fiuri Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Ideas Antworten: 34 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Hero : Master of Poisons Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 9 Monaten, 24 Tagen, 23 Stunden, 49 Minuten
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Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 05.06.2006, 15:57Hero : Master of Poisons
Role: Pusher & sieger
Primary Attribute: Agility
Stating attributes:
str - 18 (2.0 per lvl, 58 @ lvl 20)
agi - 23 (1.8 per lvl, 60 @ lvl 20)
int - 26 (2.6 per lvl, 78 @ lvl 20)
HP - 400
MP - 325
--------------------------------------------------
Skill 1: Breathe Acid [W]
Type: AoE-nuke.
Unleashing the foul acids inside himself, Master of Poisons breathes out a cone of acid that burns everything it hits.
Mana cost: 85
Cooldown: 15 seconds
lvl1 - 30 damage when struck, 70 over 18 seconds.
lvl2 - 45 damage when struck, 85 over 17 seconds.
lvl3 - 60 damage when struck, 100 over 16 seconds.
lvl4 - 75 damage when struck, 125 over 15 seconds.
lvl5 - 100 damage when struck, 150 over 14 seconds.
--------------------------------------------------
Skill 2: Acid Arrows [E]
Type: Passive increase of damage and prevents repair for few seconds after hitting building.
lvl1 - 8 extra damage
lvl2 - 12 extra damage
lvl3 - 15 extra damage
lvl4 - 17 extra damage
lvl5 - 20 extra damage
--------------------------------------------------
Skill 3: Deadly Harvest [R]
Type: Summon
Master of Poisons sprinkles a noxious potion on the soil around him, bringing forth hideous creatures that are neither plant nor animal.
Mana cost: 90
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Duration: 65 seconds
Armor: Medium
lvl1 - 2 Followers. 375 hp, 12-20 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl2 - 3 Followers. 450 hp, 15-25 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl3 - 4 Followers. 500 hp, 18-28 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl4 - 4 Followers. 550 hp, 22-32 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl5 - 4 Followers. 600 hp, 24-35 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
--------------------------------------------------
Ultimate: Restoration [T]
Type: Channeling, AoE heal and gives magic resistance.
Being superior at using poisons, he also knows the ways of healing, curing and fortifying. He uses herbs to create a strong healing fluid, that he strengtens with his magic and releases to the atmosphere as a cloud.
Mana cost: 150
Cooldown: 120 seconds
lvl1 - Heals 400 hp over 15 seconds, 20% magic resistance.
lvl2 - Heals 500 hp over 15 seconds, 25% magic resistance.
lvl3 - Heals 600 hp over 15 seconds, 30% magic resistance.
lvl4 - Heals 700 hp over 15 seconds, 35% magic resistance.
lvl5 - Heals 800 hp over 15 seconds, 40% magic resistance.
--------------------------------------------------
Possible combos:
- Deadly Harvest, Acid Arrows and Breathe Acid
Deadly Harvest slow down enemies while Master of Poisons is hammering them with Acid arrows and Breathe Acid, also works against enemy heros. Siege-wise too, as Deadly Harvest can tank towers for you and spawnies.
- Breathe Acid, Deadly Harvest and Restoration
Weaken and kill enemy lane with Breathe Acid, cast Deadly Harvest to siege and keep creatures healthy with Restoration for extra damage and tanking for spawnies.
--------------------------------------------------
Ideas are mine, balancing done by me and Gale. Some opinions asked from Nook over IRC. Fallen Followers icon and Restoration icon are both Blizz's icons that I retouched.
Also, I need a class name for him, don't get any ideas myself.
EDIT: Changed Fallen Followers name and description as Tegeus-Cromis suggested.
Changed class name and fixed descriptions a bit.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Galefury - 05.06.2006, 16:20
I like it, obviously.
Breath Acid: Mostly for pushing, the damage over time is very low and takes long. Can be used for harassing heros and forcing them to retreat eventually, though. Its not very good for actually killing things, though. Most of the damage being dealt over time means the skill wont be that good for farming and hero killing, which is OK IMO.
Arrows: Necessary for compensating the low agi. Also a very nice sieging tool, if you manage to keep attacking a tower every few seconds it cant be repaired, and the summons can take it down when cooled down.
Well, FF should have lower damage imo, with the poison they will just rip through spawns, and 8 of them can take a tower down very quickly I imagine. HP should stay high enough to survive Dragon Souls at full HP, but armor should be low. Movespeed should be quite low if they get slow poison. Poison makes them rip through spawns, and they can be used to trap a hero and FF him then, together with the hero's acid arrows.
Ultimate: Very effective for sieging and saving with the huge heal and the magic resistance. Can be easily stopped by skilled players, though, which makes the hero a very juicy target (if hes already stunned/silenced, why not take him down completely).
I guess if anything he would be overpowered. Could make an imba sieging squad with Warlord and Yumi. Just go to an expo, destroy a few towers, retreat.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 05.06.2006, 20:02
FF: I don't think nerfing attack is needed before the hero is tested, presuming he is implemented to the map.
Ultimate: Who isn't a juicy target after getting stunned/silenced? Magic resistance softens spells that enemies are going to throw at you to cancel channeling or to just kill you. Possibly overpowered, but he needs to be tested to see it.
Doesn't anyone else have something to say?
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
nooK - 06.06.2006, 00:10
Quote: Skill 1: Breathe Acid [W]
Type: AoE-nuke.
Unleashing the foul acids inside himself, Yoshimoto breathes out a cone of acid that burns everything it hits.
Mana cost: 85
Cooldown: 15 seconds
lvl1 - 30 damage when struck, 70 over 18 seconds.
lvl2 - 45 damage when struck, 85 over 17 seconds.
lvl3 - 60 damage when struck, 100 over 16 seconds.
lvl4 - 75 damage when struck, 125 over 15 seconds.
lvl5 - 100 damage when struck, 150 over 14 seconds.
Basic, but good skill only problem I see with it that it`s maybe to similiar to strafe in its function.
Quote: Skill 2: Acid Arrows [E]
Type: Passive increase of damage and prevents repair for few seconds after hitting building.
lvl1 - 8 extra damage
lvl2 - 12 extra damage
lvl3 - 15 extra damage
lvl4 - 17 extra damage
lvl5 - 20 extra damage
Normal passive, could be better but I know it`s hard to find good passives.
Quote: Skill 3: Fallen Followers [R]
Type: Summon
Yoshimoto summons evil Kamis that have taken a tree-like form.
Mana cost: 90
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Duration: 65 seconds
Armor: Medium
lvl1 - 2 Followers. 375 hp, 12-20 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl2 - 3 followers. 450 hp, 15-25 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl3 - 4 followers. 500 hp, 18-28 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl4 - 4 followers. 550 hp, 22-32 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl5 - 4 followers. 600 hp, 24-35 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
Good skill for pushing, also there are currently no summons in the map. I like it.
Quote: Ultimate: Restoration [T]
Type: Channeling, AoE heal and gives magic resistance.
Being superior at using poisons, Yoshimoto also knows the ways of healing, curing and fortifying. He uses herbs to create a strong healing fluid, that he strengtens with his magic and releases to the atmosphere as a cloud.
Mana cost: 150
Cooldown: 120 seconds
lvl1 - Heals 400 hp over 15 seconds, 20% magic resistance.
lvl2 - Heals 500 hp over 15 seconds, 25% magic resistance.
lvl3 - Heals 600 hp over 15 seconds, 30% magic resistance.
lvl4 - Heals 700 hp over 15 seconds, 35% magic resistance.
lvl5 - Heals 800 hp over 15 seconds, 40% magic resistance.
Also a good skill, allows great sieging.
Overall I think he has quite a nice theme, even if most of his spells are quite simple the spells synergize great with each other and this hero really makes a great pusher.
Very well done.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 09:55
Skill 1: Basic breath skill. It does the job, but I would add a slow.
Skill 2: Why not give his attacks poison (no slow, however) instead of a boring damage increase? As it is this skill is flat-out inferior to the Yumi's. The prevention of repair is meaningless and does not make sense anyway.
Skill 3: Why not just summon 1/2/3/4/5 with level? I see no reason for the messy levelling system you have there now, which makes some levels much more valuable than others. Flavour-wise, could he summon something other than kami? It is a very onmyoji thing to do, and none of his other skills imply magic proficiency. Perhaps he could just create his summons out of acid/poison.
Ulti: I like the magic resistance, less so the heal. Flavour-wise, the thematic link is very tenuous ('Being superior at using poisons, Yoshimoto also knows the ways of healing' is sooo stretching it); gameplay-wise, I do not like the idea of a Warlord and this hero pushing together. I suggest a powerful survival effect that does not involve directly healing. Try taking out the healing and substituting a miss % for enemies within the cloud. Perhaps moderate DPS to enemies in the cloud as well.
Overall, nice hero, but needs tweaking.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 10:22
Prevention of repair is far from meaningless, it can help with sieging quite a bit, depending on the duration of course. If it's something like 10-15 seconds it can be used to very effectively harrass a base. Attack tower with summons and his normal attack, then retreat a bit popping by every few seconds to shoot an attack at it until summons are ready again for a full force attack. That would quickly force an enemy hero to get there, because as long as this hero can stay around the base, which will be quite long because of his powerful pushing spells, the tower cant be repaired and thus will eventually die to summon attacks.
Slow on the breath might be a bit too powerful IMO, as the area should be relatively large, also he's not supposed to be a hero killer.
1/2/3/4/5 summons per level would be too strong a progression with the damage and HP being raised too. Name a skill in SL that is way more than 5 times as powerful at level 5 than at level 1... I'm thinking maybe it should just be a constant 3 followers. Creating monsters out of poison leads to a model problem, because the slime thingies Warcraft has are very very ugly. Would make more sense with the slow, though. If there is a good model for poisonous slimes/spirits/whatever, this would be a great change to the skill I think.
Ulti: Well, there is only one other healer in the game, but both have an area heal. And just a singletarget heal for an ultimate would be pretty underpowered I think. What might be a possible change is making the heal stronger but single target, and giving the AOE magic resistance off in a cloud around the primary target. This would somewhat reduce the inbaness together with the Warlord.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 10:42
Galefury: Quote: Prevention of repair is far from meaningless, it can help with sieging quite a bit, depending on the duration of course.
I quote, 'prevents repair for few seconds after hitting building.' Even 10-15 seconds would be meaningless; the hero would have to stay in the area to prevent repair for any meaningful amount of time, and no one's going to attempt repairs with an enemy hero nearby anyway.
Quote: Slow on the breath might be a bit too powerful IMO, as the area should be relatively large, also he's not supposed to be a hero killer.
Not an issue. Take it off the summons, put it on the nuke. Reduce the percentage.
Quote: 1/2/3/4/5 summons per level would be too strong a progression with the damage and HP being raised too. Name a skill in SL that is way more than 5 times as powerful at level 5 than at level 1... I'm thinking maybe it should just be a constant 3 followers.
Take out the HP and damage increase, then. Problem solved. Keeping the number constant and increasing only HP and damage would work just as well, of course.
Quote: Creating monsters out of poison leads to a model problem, because the slime thingies Warcraft has are very very ugly.
And the treant models are so great and totally not goofy-looking. :shock: Anyway, I don't see why changing the flavour text would necessitate changing the model.
Quote: Ulti: Well, there is only one other healer in the game, but both have an area heal. And just a singletarget heal for an ultimate would be pretty underpowered I think. What might be a possible change is making the heal stronger but single target, and giving the AOE magic resistance off in a cloud around the primary target. This would somewhat reduce the inbaness together with the Warlord.
Why a heal in the first place? Why?
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 10:58
Well, repairing while a hero is around is often the only way to save a tower, especially against a harassing hero. During a full force siege it is really one of the worst things you can do, but during harass there is only one hero. And while he is trying to kill the workers, maybe chasing them far into the towers, the enemy hero might take enough of a beating to have to retreat. A momentary retreat wouldn't be enough to save the tower in this case, though. Just believe me on this, preventing repair is definitely not meaningless.
Making little purple trees (plague treant skin from the nightelf campaign) out of acid seems quite weird to me, that's why I thought slimes might work better.
A heal in the first place because he is supposed to be a pusher/sieger. AOE heal is great for pushing/sieging. Actually the primary idea was the AOE heal cloud, the magic resistance was added because it seemed to be the best choice out of a few potential side-effects. Also the game has only one healer at the moment, so another heal couldn't hurt too much. If you can think of something else, make a suggestion. Here's a list of the possible side effects we thought of, pick one to replace the healing or make your own: Miss chance for enemies, partial invis for all allies in the area (switching on and off), randomly creating mirror images/illusions of heros in the AOE, increased damage or attack speed.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 06.06.2006, 11:13
Tegeus-Cromis:
Quote: And the treant models are so great and totally not goofy-looking.
Goes well enough with the theme in my opinion.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 11:13
Galefury: Quote: Well, repairing while a hero is around is often the only way to save a tower, especially against a harassing hero. During a full force siege it is really one of the worst things you can do, but during harass there is only one hero. And while he is trying to kill the workers, maybe chasing them far into the towers, the enemy hero might take enough of a beating to have to retreat.
Killing a worker takes all of one second. You don't attack them, you nuke them. Duh.
Quote: Just believe me on this, preventing repair is definitely not meaningless.
No offence, but why should I 'Just believe [you] on this'? I have as much faith in my judgement as you do in yours. :P
Quote: Making little purple trees (plague treant skin from the nightelf campaign) out of acid seems quite weird to me, that's why I thought slimes might work better.
Aren't there green (poison?) ones? Those would work, I think. Or tiny golems, suitably recoloured and with a poison cloud effect.
Slimes might be okay too, but they look a little too Giger-esque to me, you know?
Quote: A heal in the first place because he is supposed to be a pusher/sieger. AOE heal is great for pushing/sieging.
Uh, yeah, but it is not the only thing that is.
Quote: Also the game has only one healer at the moment, so another heal couldn't hurt too much.
Maybe if it was like DotA with 70+ heroes, but when there are fewer than 10 heroes and 2 of those have huge heals, and one team choosing them does not prevent the other team from doing so. . . well.
Quote: If you can think of something else, make a suggestion. Here's a list of the possible side effects we thought of, pick one to replace the healing or make your own: Miss chance for enemies, partial invis for all allies in the area (switching on and off), randomly creating mirror images/illusions of heros in the AOE, increased damage or attack speed.
Dude, I already posted my suggestion:
Quote: I suggest a powerful survival effect that does not involve directly healing. Try taking out the healing and substituting a miss % for enemies within the cloud. Perhaps moderate DPS to enemies in the cloud as well.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 11:16
Omerta: I agree, but they do look goofy-looking IMHO. Kept small they should be fine, though. :)
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 11:25
Well, I don't like your suggestions, so I ignored them. :D
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 06.06.2006, 11:29
First idea I got ultimate was Pollution. Green mist that changes terrain on its radius to blight and damages towers and spawns over time. Channeling.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 11:32
Heh, forgot something.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Killing a worker takes all of one second. You don't attack them, you nuke them. Duh.
Ack, I was thinking ToB workers. :(
They have some magic resistance which makes them a bit more durable. Should be added in SL too IMO.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 11:38
Galefury: Quote: Well, I don't like your suggestions, so I ignored them.
Aheheheheh.
Quote: Ack, I was thinking ToB workers. Traurig
They have some magic resistance which makes them a bit more durable. Should be added in SL too IMO.
I dunno about that. I like how fragile they are now; it means you have to careful when repairing. Perhaps they could just have a little more HP; they do look like pretty sturdy fellas. :P
Omerta: Quote: First idea I got ultimate was Pollution. Green mist that changes terrain on its radius to blight and damages towers and spawns over time. Channeling.
Hm, I dunno. Nice idea, but in practice it would just be Rain of Arrows with different visuals.
I'm sticking with my miss %/magic resistance/slight DOT suggestion.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 06.06.2006, 11:43
Quote: Hm, I dunno. Nice idea, but in practice it would just be Rain of Arrows with different visuals.
More like Death&Decay with different graphics. Thats the reason I decided to abandon it.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 11:45
Well the problem with the peasants having no magic resistance is that any hero can kill them easily with any nuke. Which means they just cant be even slightly safe anywhere. Midgame any hero can run past the towers, cast his nuke, poof, peasants dead, run. If you can kill them with any single nuke (except maybe Dragon Souls) you will have to stay in the towers longer, taking a bit more of a risk. ToB workers are still fragile BTW, it's something like 30% magic resistance I think. And if not protected by some vehicle to put them into they die very easily to some heros.
So double nuke = dead
Single nuke = alive with about 1/3 HP
Would be good imo.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 11:49
Galefury: Upon reconsideration, I find I actually agree with that. Good idea; you should post it on the balance forum.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Vladhslavh - 06.06.2006, 15:29
IMHO that dont count normaly :lol: The FF spell cold be a little diferent,
like that.
of course it shold be green colored but its not a problem.
ok so...
Skill 3: Fallen Followers [R]
Type: Summon
Yoshimoto summons evil Kamis from the body of dead warriors, made from disfigured meat and poison, rised by a mysterious toxine Yoshimoto created.
Mana cost: 30
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Duration: 50 seconds
Armor: Medium
lvl1 - 2 Followers rised from a corpose. 175 hp, 10-18 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl2 - 2 followers rised from a corpose. 225 hp, 12-20 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl3 - 2 followers rised from a corpose. 275 hp, 14-22 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl4 - 2 followers rised from a corpose. 325 hp, 16-24 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
lvl5 - 2 followers rised from a corpose. 375 hp, 18-26 damage, 12 poison dmg per strike.
(the animation could be the hero trowing a acid bottle in a corpose then the corpose explode and the "FF" rise from it)
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
nooK - 06.06.2006, 18:08
Quote: Try taking out the healing and substituting a miss % for enemies within the cloud. Perhaps moderate DPS to enemies in the cloud as well.
I also like this idea more for the Ulti, it allows good sieging but when heros are around they can still kill the attackers.
For the corrupted treant model: It looks fine in my opinion.
I really like this hero, even I didn´t like the model before :P
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 19:44
I wonder what you could call him, though. His model suggests something like Dark Onmyoji to me, but he is not an Int hero nor does the flavour text depict him as a mage. Perhaps something simple like Poisons Master?
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 06.06.2006, 22:26
TegeusCromis:
Quote: I wonder what you could call him, though. His model suggests something like Dark Onmyoji to me, but he is not an Int hero nor does the flavour text depict him as a mage. Perhaps something simple like Poisons Master?
Master of Poisons, maybe, I'll consider it. I'd like to hear suggestions from other people too.
Vladshlav:
Appearance idea for the sludge has balls, but I prefer plague treant model.
You are making them far too weak with that balance in my opinion. They are weak as hell if they got only 175hp at level one and 375 at max, and only two per summoning? You could effectively have only 4 out at once, and they wouldnt endure long with so low hp if they are attacked. Mana cost is nuisant, but so are the FFs with that balance. :p
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 23:21
Alternative name: Dokumiyaku (apparently, 'taster for poison'). Will have to check with someone who'd know better if it is appropriate, though.
-
I say again, let's not involve kami in the flavour text, as he is not a mystic or mage. It's easy to create a description that makes sense and is consistent with the model without referring to kami.
Deadly Harvest
The [insert hero class here] sprinkles a noxious potion on the soil around him, bringing forth hideous creatures that are neither plant nor animal.
Not so difficult, is it?
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 07.06.2006, 10:46
Changed name and description of Fallen Followers to what Tegeus-Cromis suggested.
I'll change class name to Master of Poisons until someone makes up something better.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
nooK - 07.06.2006, 11:51
Don´t like Master of Poisons, but I´m sure we will find a better name.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 13:40
I think Poisons Master would be better, but both are not really ideal, certainly. Will try to suggest something better.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 30.06.2006, 13:48
Still any suggestions for the name? I might start thinking of new hero idea soon and I wan't a good class name for this one before it.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Fiuri - 02.07.2006, 13:24
About that Summon Skill
Why not use the model of Spearman, set variable color to darkgreen
because green show's poison haha...
i just thought that the character's and units in this game will all be samurai-type so that we can provoke more player's on this game
because its so bored looking the model's of warcraft...
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 02.07.2006, 16:23
Fiuri wrote: About that Summon Skill
Why not use the model of Spearman, set variable color to darkgreen
because green show's poison haha...
i just thought that the character's and units in this game will all be samurai-type so that we can provoke more player's on this game
because its so bored looking the model's of warcraft...
If we were using spearman model, a new skin would work better than plain recolour.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
nooK - 02.07.2006, 16:25
No no we keep the model, another spearmaa would totally suck. Don´t know where you get such ideas...
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 02.07.2006, 16:38
Fiuri, as you seem to have quite fast running imagination, how about making up few ideas for his class name?
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Fiuri - 03.07.2006, 06:45
Omerta wrote: Fiuri, as you seem to have quite fast running imagination, how about making up few ideas for his class name?
hehe sorry... i'm a bit that...
ok i'm starting to think now!
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
Omerta - 10.07.2006, 14:54
Post/article number 1000 on these forums.
EDIT: Also my 30th post. And yeah, this post had no actual meaning.
Re: Hero : Master of Poisons
tegeus-Cromis - 10.07.2006, 15:09
Erm, well done?
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