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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Kurtl - Roy N - Pathfinder - MUCKS Forum: - Aero Part Identify Board - aus dem Unterforum: Teile mit Nummern / Parts with numbers Antworten: 22 Forum gestartet am: Donnerstag 15.02.2007 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 8 Monaten, 30 Tagen, 2 Stunden, 26 Minuten
Alle Beiträge und Antworten zu "Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft"
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 25.06.2007, 23:46Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
This spectacular find (for me) shows some stampings.
I hope they come out good enough in the pictures.
Anyone an idea what engine that could have been?
Some pieces of aluminium sheet metal close to this find showed some lightblue color. That made me think for an german aircraft. Sorry there was nothing else found with numbers on it.
Here are the pictures:
Best Regards,
Kurtl
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 26.06.2007, 21:49
Hi kurtl
i dont know what these parts are from but "+40" on an English or American crankshaft main bearing cap would mean that the crankshaft was worn and had been reground to plus 40 thousandths of an inch and was fitted with over sized bearing shells. not sure about aero engines but cars are usually +10 +20 +30
my point is, i think it would be a different set of numbers on a German aircraft. Metric scale was only used on the european continent not in England or the US at the time of WW2. we used Feet and inches.
RAF /FAA (Royal Navy) camo included a number of shades of blue (see link)
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/colourcharts/Digital%20RAF%20WW2%20Colours.pdf
i hope that makes sense :???:
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Pathfinder - 26.06.2007, 22:26
Kurtl,
the photos #1 to #5 is a piston with conrod, #6 is a part from cylinder with cooling chamber...
#4 show a number who looks as a german part number.
maybe this was a piston from compressor ?
Nils
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
MUCKS - 28.06.2007, 01:05
Kurti.
Try if possible to remove the big end bearing cap. Engines from the late 1930's are fitted with big end shells which can be removed and on the under side will have the manufactures name and part no. Motor cycle and aircraft engines I would have thought would have been what I call white metal bearings, where they were cast onto the big end cap then machined to the correst size for the crankshaft journal or ball bearing races.
I agree with Roy the plus 40 would indicate a big end shell.Hope I have been of some help.
Martin (mucks)
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 29.06.2007, 09:47
measuring the diameter of the piston might help. it would identify the size of the bore of the cylinder.
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 02.07.2007, 18:49
Kurtl
the part i have marked in yellow is the "big end shell" Martin has mentioned. its made of the "white metal" martin has also mentioned. these usually have a makers name on them.
as most of its cover is missing, you can clean this without removing it.
if you clean the part i have marked, vey carefully because its soft metal.
you should see the makers name
is the top of the piston missing and please could you try and measure the diameter of the piston?
Roy
this is the shell. you are looking at the other side
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 03.07.2007, 16:57
The top of the piston is missing. I think it broke into several parts because some small metal pieces are captured between the pressed sidewalls of the piston head. They look like they were part of the piston top.
I measured the perimeter of the piston with a lace. Sure that is not super accurate but maybe close enough to real. I got 500 to 510mm. So let's devide it by Pi (Diameter = Perimeter / Pi). So it brings us to 159 - 163 mm diameter. Does that help?
Further I tried to remove that part you mentioned. That was not possible. I would need to cut it with something. The yellow marked metal seems to be iron. The part which is free did not show a number or stamping at all, I'm sorry. On some parts it looks like melted together with the white metal.
Kurtl
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
MUCKS - 03.07.2007, 20:23
Hi Kurti.
Can you post the photo again and you mark which part is free as you mentioned in your last post,then will try to go from there to ID.
Martin (Mucks)
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 05.07.2007, 03:58
Kurtl
some technical stuff. we will test your English ;)
from the things i can see on your photos, i think this might be an Inverted V engine (upside down).
not Radial. not Upright V....
there is what looks like a thread around the bottom of the piston and a ring screwed onto that and (another?) smaller, thinner ring above that?,
i think these could be there because the engine was upside down and they were to prevent too much oil running down the bore of the cylinder under gravity. the cylinder would be wider at the bottom to allow this.
i cannot see another reason for that ring.
the connecting rod is attached fairly low down on the piston. i will not try to explain how, but it would help to keep down the overall depth of the engine by reducing the length of the con rod.
Still awake??
159/163mm is very big for WW2 aero engines.
for example >
Jumo 213 =150mm
RR Griffon =152.4
RR & Packard Merlin =137.16mm
i can only find 2 engines so far that have the right bore
Allison V-1710, = 139.7mm
Daimler Benz 603= 162mm,
there might be some more, but not many i think..
for the reason i have already said. (possibly inverted engine and piston size). it MIGHT be from a DB engine. this was inverted. the Allison was upright
this is all a guess of course, but measurements are very important with mechanical parts and can tell you a lot. piston size has at least narrowed the search.
i will look for more detail on the 603..
Regards
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 05.07.2007, 13:46
Hey Ron, thanks for that detailed explanation. My english isn't that good but I think I got what is most important - piston size! Hey, I read somewhere (don't ask me now where) that the DB 605 was wided up compared to the DB601 or 603. Remember that they first had problems in cooling that larger engine. And finally they installed it in the Bf109G's. Think they even had to cool the spark plugs!
Maybe you have bore sizes of a DB605? I think that is the engine we are looking for.
Thanks again for your help!
Kurtl
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 05.07.2007, 13:50
DB605 is smaller.. 154mm. this was an uprated 601 not 603. i already checked that :cool:
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 05.07.2007, 16:17
kurtl
yes, you have understood the main thing. its size that matters ;) .
you can see that piston cannot be from many aircraft because of its size.
it helps a lot. we just have to hope that your measuring is accurate :n137:
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
MUCKS - 06.07.2007, 01:02
Kurti.
Photo 7. is this made of rubber? if so I think what you have there is possibly the side wall of a tyre.The top side in the photo looks like a lip or bead which would sit in the wheel rim to form a air seal, and the three ribs are part of the tyre side wall design.
Martin (Mucks)
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 06.07.2007, 03:07
kurt
next question..
is the part i have highlighted a hollow pipe or is it solid?. i was thinking it was hollow, but now i hope its a solid rod. perhaps with some screw thread at the top end?.
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 08.07.2007, 17:11
Roy and to all: look at this: http://cgi.ebay.at/Motor-Daimler-Benz-Luftwaffe-2-Weltkrieg_W0QQitemZ280130311964QQihZ018QQcategoryZ40820QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Regards,
Kurtl
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 08.07.2007, 18:24
Kurt,
after much searching and checking i am sure your parts are from a DB600 series engine.
it will be easy to tell which, by the bore size.
that is NOT a piston in your photo. its a cylinder liner.
the piston would be made of a light alloy. this would not dent. it would shatter on impact.
the piston is gone. apart from perhaps some small pieces trapped inside
these engines had a cylinder liner.
this was a steel sleeve, fitted in the bore of the crank case and the piston would then move up and down inside that.
the liner was used to reduce maintenace.
when the piston wore the sides of the cylinder. it was easier to replace these liners than re bore the engine.
some liners are inserted from the top. yours is inserted from the bottom. the screwed collar near the bottom is used to prevent the liner being moved too far up the cylinder. its like a stop.
the rod i highlighted is a bar that went from each of the main crank bearings to the crank case. i think this was to stop the crank shaft flexing when the motor was running. or to prevent vibration.
the 600 series of engines had a "unique" way of fitting the bearings to the crank shaft, that was not used on any other type of motor. this is visible on your crank.
picture #1 is a DB 601 engine.
normal engines only have the fitting i have marked in red.
the "unique" fitting only used on DB600 series are marked in yellow. your engine has these. so does the one on ebay.
picture #2 shows the rods that go from the crank shaft main bearings to the crank case
did you measure the inside or outside of the liner?
its the inside diameter you need to know.!!
if over 54mm then its a DB603 i think.
also, could the numbers in your picture #4 be
D-B0? or 3-60? 104-067.22
6118 34454
Regards
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 08.07.2007, 21:33
Good work Roy! I owe you something! Many thanks!
I measured the outside of the liner. Doubt that I can measure the inside but will try. Your theorie sounds right to me. There are some shattered pieces trapped inside. When I was cleaning the part some small piece fell out. They are definitely made by a different metal that iron and are shattered.
I checked the rod you highlighted. It is full metal with a screw head at one side and looks broken on the other side. The one end is a slotted screw with two opposite sides flatened. There is no hole at all.
The number in picture #4 is in bad shape. The beginning is no more to identify. "D-BO" and a 4th letter is possible. I doubt that it meant "3-60". I looks like there was one letter or digit, a dash and then 3 letters or digits. The rest is 104-067.22 and could be 6118 34454! So you found out the meaning of those numbers?
I have a theory about which aircraft it was. Think that a Bf109-G6/U4 had a DB605. So maybe the numbers help us more?
Again, thanks to you Roy!
Best regards,
Kurtl
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 08.07.2007, 22:11
Kurt,
glad to help. i am sure now that you have a DB engine.
which one is something only you can answer. you have the sizes for the different pistons.
if you measured the outside then it must be smaller than 159/163mm inside.
this means a DB605 would be very possible.
you will only have to measure across the bottom of the liner. not round the inside. the bottom looks to be about the original shape and size.
the liner could be tapered though, but i am not sure of this.
the rods were bolted through the crank case and visible on the outside of the engine
i only got the numbers from expanding your photo and looking closely. what you called 1s are the same angles as 4s. so i think they must be 4s :D
let us know when you get a better measurement. you will be able to tell us which type it is.
Regards
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
MUCKS - 09.07.2007, 23:28
Roy.
:n57: I take my hat off to you,well done on ID I can see what you mean about the the bars on the main bearing cap, perfect match and also can see the crank is hollow to keep the weight down as in picture .Will ring you :n102: soon.
Martin (Mucks)
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 20.07.2007, 16:27Inside Diameter
Hello to all,
The diameter on the inside of the liner is 154 to 156mm. Does that fit for a DB605?
Kurtl
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Roy N - 20.07.2007, 16:48
Hi Kurt
yes, as far as i can see, all DB605s were 154mm.
details for the DB605
http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm
do you know when the plane crashed?
Roy
Re: Cock, con rod and crankshaft of unknown aircraft
Kurtl - 26.07.2007, 21:36
No, sorry I don't know the date the plane crashed. I'm working on it but all lochal archives I've checked so far don't mention the crash at all. There are two left so there is some of hope.
My guess is that it was the Bf109G6 of Uffz. Hans Kemmerling of JG302. He crashed on July 25th, 1944.
Kurtl
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