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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Forbidden - Viziroth - Anonymous - Lyncor - wizard.dark - Anton - nooK - Flargen_Blargen - Vladhslavh - Shadow Phoenix - Lord.DarthVader - tegeus-Cromis - Andriejj Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Ideas Antworten: 79 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Hero: Strategist Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 5 Tagen, 2 Stunden, 22 Minuten
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Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 26.01.2007, 22:40Hero: Strategist
http://www.wc3sear.ch/files/minimap.php?img=gfx/preview/1141642919HeroMuneyosiYagyu.jpg&t=Screenshot&sizeX=450&sizeY=450&x=0&y=0
I have a request for this hero: is it possible for someone who knows modelling, to change the models weapon from katana to a strategist’s fan? If it’s not possible then there’s no choice but to use the sword. A strategist fan would be really cool though and then he could be ranged (more ranged heroes piz, eh?).
Name: Yuen Taira, Mori Nobuzane
Class: Strategist
Stats:
Str: 13 (growth = 1,2/lvl ,@ lvl 20 = 37)
Agi: 13 (growth = 1,45/lvl ,@ lvl 20 = 42)
Int: 14 (main attribute, growth = 2,05/lvl ,@ lvl 20 = 55)
Hp: 425 (@ lvl 20 = 1025)
Mana: 210 (@ lvl 20 = 825)
Damage: 21-27 (@ lvl 20 = 62-68 )
Role: spawn manipulator, disruptor
- A good army always needs a tactician. Strategy has accomplished feats such as defending a castle with 1/10 of the enemy’s numbers. Only 1 damage dealing skill that deals damage over time. Otherwise relies on manipulating spawns. Afaik, his damage is the smallest of all heroes so far and that’s what I wanted.
Skill 1. Ambush party
The strategist calls for an ambush party to appear at the target location. The ambush party fights for 15 seconds and then retreats
mana cost: 125
duration: 15 seconds
cooldown: 40 seconds
“Scattered clouds,
disappearing mist.”
level 1 – 1 ashigaru
level 2 – 1 ashigaru and 1 archer
level 3 – 2 ashigarus and 1 archer
level 4 – 2 ashigarus and 1 elite archer
level 5 – 2 ashigarus and 2 elite archers
Comments: A short and simple summons spell that uses old models, so it saves filesize.
Skill 2. Seal Evil
The strategist uses calligraphy to draw a magical seal of evil and enchants a target enemy with it. The seal causes damage over time and increases the targets mana consumption.
mana cost: 90
duration: 7 seconds
cooldown: 14 seconds
“You do not wait for fulfillment,
but brace yourself for failure.”
level 1 – 10 dmg/second, 120% mana consumption
level 2 – 13 dmg/second, 140% mana consumption
level 3 – 16 dmg/second, 160% mana consumption
level 4 – 19 dmg/second, 180% mana consumption
level 5 – 22 dmg/second, 200% mana consumption
Comments: Brilliant for use vs. heroes with little mana or heavy mana costs like Ronin, Onmyoji, Warlord and Yumi.
Skill 3. Fushin (doubt, question, distrust, suspicion)
The strategist is a smooth talker. He can convince enemy soldiers that their comrades are traitorous. Causes an enemy unit to go berserk, making it attack any and all units. Unable to target heroes.
mana cost: 100
cooldown: 35
“Not only can water float a boat,
it can sink it also.”
level 1 – lasts 6 seconds
level 2 – lasts 10 seconds
level 3 – lasts 14 seconds
level 4 – lasts 18 seconds
level 5 – lasts 22 seconds
Comments: Like a charm that just makes the unit turn into a creep for x seconds, attacking both teams.
Skill 4. Tokkan (charge/rush/lightning attack) – Ultimate
The strategist calls for his troops to focus attacking a single outpost. Transfers troops from another outpost or dojo to another one for a single wave, leaving one outpost undefended but giving the other twice as much manpower.
mana cost: 175
duration: lasts until next spawn interval
cooldown: 50 seconds
“Though the bamboo forest is dense,
water flows through it freely.”
level 1 – transfers 2 troops
level 2 – transfers 3 troops
level 3 – transfers 4 troops
level 4 – transfers 5 troops
level 5 – transfers 6 troops
Comments: The point is to transfer spawns to another lane to put more pressure on that lane for a single wave. Perfect for situations that require some extra “oomph” when pushing a single lane. The drawback is of course that it leaves another lane more vulnerable. To get the most out of this skill at level 5 it requires shrines, so it gives even more reason to use spawn shrines. It should target the dojo or an outpost from which you wish to transfer troops from first, and second it should target another dojo or outpost. Then on the next wave the outpost or dojo which was targeted second, would spawn a number of extra spawns equal to the amount reduced from the other lane. Probably easiest to make it transfer the units at random. So if an outpost spawns 3 (the normal wave spawns 3, right?) ashigarus, 1 archer, 1 yari cavalry, 1 ninja and 2 elite archers it would transfer 5 random units from among those at lvl 4.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 27.01.2007, 02:58
I think this hero is great ^.^ I love the ambush Idea. And his ult. But I'm not too sure about fushin....I mean there's a really big chance that the creep would still attack your creeps because it was alrdy doing so probably. While I guess it could be used to weaken a wave in a lane if you use it b4 actual enemy contact, It still doesn't seem like a skill that'd be too popular. Much like ronins death poem.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 27.01.2007, 14:35
Viziroth said:
Quote: But I'm not too sure about fushin....I mean there's a really big chance that the creep would still attack your creeps because it was alrdy doing so probably. While I guess it could be used to weaken a wave in a lane if you use it b4 actual enemy contact, It still doesn't seem like a skill that'd be too popular. Much like ronins death poem.
That won't be a problem necessarily. Some skills should be less useful than others. And timing is a part of skill. You have to time the use of the skill correctly to maximize the effect.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anonymous - 27.01.2007, 17:30
Love the hero idea.If you cant find a good model,somone was posting hero named Wise Man or something,his model sounds like its perfect for this...that is if his idea doesnt get through
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anonymous - 27.01.2007, 17:31
Lol my bad i didnt look at the link before i posted that....looked right after looks like thats the dude i was talking bout >< sorrys
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 27.01.2007, 17:36
It would be a great skill for pushing, actually. Target the enemy Yari Cavalry before they actually get to your creep and it'll start killing an ashigaru - leaving them down a troop and letting you push more easily. Combined with Ambush, this hero will be a fearsome pusher - especially having a ranged attack!
I like him. He doesn't reek of overpoweredness in any way. I could be missing something, though.
He definitely seems the kind of hero that, until you get good with him, plain sucks. That's very, very good. However, in the hands of a strategically wise player... he would be devastating. Nicely done, Forb. I love this trend of heroes that aren't designed to be awesome at hero killing - it makes those ones that are that much more valuable, yet that much more vulnerable to sheer pushing force.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 27.01.2007, 22:35
Appreciate the compliments, and yes we need more heroes that aren't über herokillers.
Even if his attack was ranged it wouldn't be the same as Onmyoji or Yumi. His attack damage is very low. His hp is also quite low at lvl 20 and he lacks escape skills completely.
As Lyncor said he may be difficult to master, but when mastered, he could be irreplacable.
Anyway, I'd love a strategists fan, wouldn't you? :D
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 28.01.2007, 02:09
If that's what the strategists historically used, then sure :)
How would he use it? Throw the thing, and spawn another? Throw it, hit the target, and it flies back?
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 28.01.2007, 05:09
Probably fly back. And I'd probably be using this hero a lot if it's made. lol I have a feeling that every team will at least have this guy or warlord.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 28.01.2007, 11:46
I though that he would just wave it and shoot a projectile like gargoyles do, but sure I guess he could throw it too. Although that might be kind of weird, since the fans were often made of feathers, and feathers dont tend to fly like boomerangs, they just float like feathers :D .
Here's a picture of a chinese strategist called Zhuge Liang, who used a strategists fan:
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 29.01.2007, 01:43
Ohhh, lol I was thinking of those ninja fans that had the metal ribs. That wave for gargoyle projectile would be kewl.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anonymous - 29.01.2007, 02:05
I was just bout to post that.No way in hell should he throw his fan,it would simply not make sence(and since we trying to lol we should try to make the most sence we can)and ofcaurse it sounds like something ninja would do to throw it so it comes back....(onmyoji?yes thats what i thought he was going to do).
My thought might be crazy bold but perhaps he shouldnt have an attack period BUT have an ability to substitute for it just like a hero i know from Advent of Zenith.My idea is to have Fujin as a substitute attack without the mana penalty but with damage over time with short duration.It would make more sence and give room for an extra ability,something to do with strategy such as healing well placed for troops to heal in midst of base siege or something in that sort.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 29.01.2007, 04:50
Having no normal attack is insanely hard to balance. I reckon he should throw a dagger or something - just he waves his fan, and a knife comes out and flies at the target.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 31.01.2007, 00:33
no no....thats not right.If he has to go with normal attack he should at least do something like gargoils do.Having a dagger come out of ur fan is more of a surprise attack,doing it constantly doesnt seem surprising.
I thought perhaps if he doesnt have fujin he should have one of the other abilities as normal attack such as summon(with increased cool down or something) or that talker move transform enemies to friends in midst battle.Ofcaurse personaly i still think Fujin would be a perfect move for non attacking hero.
Now this ofcaurse would proly make hero absolutly usless pvper cause even if he would chase somone down(unless he has fujin)he would have no damage to deal to them lol....and i doubt ambush party will do much >< But if ur going for insane sieger yeah this hero would be perfect.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 31.01.2007, 10:18
Fujin is the god of wind. The skill is called Fushin, kkthx.
Wizard.dark you might want to try finding a slightly smaller avatar.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 31.01.2007, 16:06
O im sorry i made such a huge mistake.Never the less back to the point you will most unlikley get a fan model anyway so if u have a sword he will just have normal attack anyway.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 01.02.2007, 01:32
i had no problem with forbidens original model idea, it would be hard to make a fan a weapon unless it was a one of the ninja ones, so i can not see most modelers havening something that would fit. you would have to get them to make or customize one especially for this hero. well thats what i think. there may bee one out there but i don't think it would be common. also would a samurai strategist have a sword, not all stratergests used a fan in combat did they?...the yumi dose so y should eh not have one? and a honorable leader should lead his troops into battle, not sit at the back waving a fan at stuff :)
also if there are any magor problems with his skills i can post 3 ideas that i have been siting on that mite work well with this hero :)
p.s. swords are so much more bad-ass than fans.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 01.02.2007, 01:52
Anton your right but what they are trying to accomplish with this hero is non melee character.That is why fan was suggested in first place.
The hero will be completly concentrated on sieging.So he will be usless with melee completly.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 01.02.2007, 15:19
*sigh* The point was that IF it's possible, then give him a fan. If not then no. More ranged heroes would have been nice but he doesn't have to be a ranged hero. However, with the hp he has now at lvl 20...he will be every Ronin/Ninja duos dream target because he has low hp and no escape skills. Compared to Yumi (traps) and Onmyoji (fujins slow, shikigami) he's cannonfodder. If he keeps the sword as a weapon he needs a hp buff.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 01.02.2007, 15:56
Personaly i still vote for ranged hero.It will go perfect with the role cause stretegist class sounds like somone whod stay back and order his troops around instead of slashing away forgeting bout the....strategy.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 02.02.2007, 00:16
I still quite like the idea of some sort of thrown semi-ranged weapon - but not a glaive, or some kind of big fancy thing. Throwing a dagger would be cool, or perhaps an axe of some kind.
Personally, I think that 'magic-looking' things should be saved for skills. Without skills, SL has a very mundane feel and look to it - something that adds a bit of realism and makes the gameplay a bit more believable. This adds to the fun, I think. THAT is why I'm against him shooting a small bolt of energy or somesuch.
The more flashy the normal attacks are, the less awesome the skills look by comparison. There's something satisfying about regularly slashing someone, or throwing a knife at them, instead of blasting them repeatedly with a little magic spell. Save the magic for the skills - Dragonsouls (Big fiery explosion?), Kaze (Levitation), Airy charge (Phasing, movement), Flying daggers (Teleportation)...
When maps are riddled with flashy stuff at every turn, it just looks cheap and tacky. When the combat is actually -believable- (There's a difference between 'possible in fantasy' and 'outright impossible')... well, then it just makes it so much more exciting because it draws you in. You actually feel like you're the character, chasing down your prey for the kill, facing off against an army with just what your body can do (Which turns out to be a lot), or running for dear life as fast as your legs can carry you (Instead of relying on magical means to get away, such as long range teleportation or abusable blink).
Either way, I hope that you get where I'm coming from. It's one of the ways I think that the Onmyoji doesn't quite mesh as well as some heroes, in that he just conjurs up big magical nukes instead of doing some cool form of 'exceptional movement' such as Flying Death, Way of Death, Strafe, Whirl, Rising Dragon (If he didn't disappear mid jump.. never liked that..), Flying Daggers (Even though it's magical in nature due to the blinking, it's still based on body movements - throwing all the daggers, doing the flips, etc - same with Kaze). The more sort of stuff that we add that doesn't look -believable- (Not necessarily possible, but 'possible in fantasy')... the more the 'feel' of the map will be altered. In my opinion, altered for the worse.
That's my 2 cents, anyway. The people I've talked to about this sort of thing seem to feel the same way about it, so apparently I'm not just crazy :D
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 02.02.2007, 01:31
You do have a point lyn. but they ment the gargolyes attack cuz it could be like a wind slash or something. Wave the fan for some sorta air attack.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 02.02.2007, 02:32
Lol Lync i dunno wat to say.If you think a gargoil attack would be cool looking you are crazy.But yeah what Viziroth said i think the attack would be a wave of the fan.And as for throwing the fan theres a cool character model il post later that was made out of demon hunter she looks so much like black stans model but she isnt.She duel weilds cool fans and has a ninja sword on her back so if theres something with throwing a fan it should defenatly be a chicks cool attack move and such.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 02.02.2007, 15:40
Point taken Lync. If a ranged attack is what we can agree on, even if he gets a dagger throw (which is better than a melee attack or throwing a goddamn fan), we need to get rid of that sword of his. Ok at least someone understood the point of waving a fan and shooting a small "blast of wind" for which gargoyle projectile fits best. If you can think of a better one then by all means spit it out.
@ wizard:
Oh you wouldn't happen to mean the 2 models I posted in the Kunoichi hero ideas 3rd page...with links and all. Nah, those chicks don't look like strategists. They look too "ninja-like". Not that I'm saying a woman can't be a strategist. However I don't find those models to fit.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 02.02.2007, 16:45
Dunno what models your talking about but yeah i did find this 1 model when i typed in ninja .< But she looks very cool duel weilding fans though i also think she doesnt fit into the theme.....We need something like warlord for strategist(because warlord looks very strategic).I hope you have good luck geting that sword replaced i tried to look for an appropriate model but just couldnt find one sorry ;(
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 02.02.2007, 16:50
Yah i just looked at models your right thats the ones you were talking bout.
Ima go look for more hero models see if i can find something fitting ;/
Re: Hero: Strategist
nooK - 02.02.2007, 20:38
Hm the new ranged lightning hero wil shoot out lightning balls as normal attack, some color on the battlefield will look quite well imo.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Flargen_Blargen - 03.02.2007, 05:29
i like the hero all and all.
and i agree it needs more ranged heros.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Vladhslavh - 04.02.2007, 00:42
Maybe one of the pistols this hero use ->"HeroNouhime" and the strategist fan (not as a weapon) in the other hand? sounds more (realist) to me... IMHO fits better than throwing daggers and fans =P
again sry for the poor english ^^
Edit: small english corrections... (the ones i could see) =)
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 04.02.2007, 03:20
we are still not over the problem that we havent found any models with fans wats so ever other then the 2 ninja girls.Lets look at this more realisticly and use models that we have a grasp of.Sugesting something like duel weapon and a totaly diffrent weapon in off hand is completly crazy and you have no idea how much time and work that would take to make.
(Eather that...or i have no idea)
BTW:Throwing fans and daggers was totaly realistic back in those times,well the idea of throwing fans always was a ninja type of thing told in stories so it might not be to realistic,but if you can belive in Onmyoji throwing his huge shuriken looking thing at people and having another one pop up outa nowhere ul defenatly belive a fan been thrown and coming back to its owner.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 04.02.2007, 04:18
umm the way i see it what comander whould use a fan in battle... ninjas did use them but they are a diferent sort of fan than you are talking about. the idea of aving him atack with a gust of wind seems a bit magical and hes ment to be a stratergist not a mage... basicly i dont see a way that this hero will work with a fan and still be sticking to his theam, of a stratergist....
Re: Hero: Strategist
Vladhslavh - 04.02.2007, 19:57
I was trying to say he could use only the pistol in battle, the fan could be just as the paladin book, its there only in spell anim. but oh well if you like the trowing fan... do as you please.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 05.02.2007, 03:36
You guys musto missunderstood me....i never said i think he should throw a fan,i said that throwing fans was actualy realistic when somone said it wasnt.
And i still think IF we get an actual fan model he should defenatly have a skill instead of an attack as i said a long time ago.I mean i realise it will be hard to balance but its not like were releasing this guy the next version.We already have alot of people lined up for that with theyr great hero ideas(not that i dont tihnk this hero idea isnt great).
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 05.02.2007, 03:54
I reckon it'd work well for him to have a fan in one hand, and a throwing knife in the other.
A strategist isn't going to be getting right into a melee, trying to fend off guys left and right and deal up-close damage. Anyone who had tried melee combat before will know that you physically cannot focus on doing both that and precisely directing troops to have maximum effect.
A strategist needs to hang back a bit - if he fights, he needs to fight at some sort of range. In this, it also makes sense for him to be intel-based. The more powerful his intellect becomes, the better he is able to devote attention to both fighting and directing the troops. Thus, the more damage he will do with his attack - because, for the same level of troop direction, he can focus more on making that throwing knife hit a vital spot.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 05.02.2007, 09:19
Instead of the throwing knife, maybe we could use someone's earlier suggestion(i forget who sorry) of using a pistol and a knife.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 05.02.2007, 15:33
I'm not so sure they even had pistols back then.
The gun that the warlord has is supposed to be a special thing, after all - and the longer-barreled guns came first.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 05.02.2007, 16:06
Probably true, vut I don't see this hero with a throwing knife.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Vladhslavh - 05.02.2007, 17:08
i've said pistol... sry my mistake. Its not trully a pistol, see for yourself what i think he should use:
the throwing knife could work to, at least better than the fan thing, but in my opinion such weapon require more dexterity/strenght than intelligence to be used properly.
again as aways sorry for the poor english, dont really have time/money to learn it...
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 05.02.2007, 21:37
I totaly disagree with throwing knife cause its not strategic at all its ninja like....
Re: Hero: Strategist
Shadow Phoenix - 07.02.2007, 14:28
*Reads through forums when he should be asleep in bed*
Right, first off Forb, i LOVE this hero. Its fantastic that heros that actually require skill and have a great feel to them (Unlike the Dachi and Onmy) are being suggested. This guy isnt just point and click spells and will fit well in teams with other heros, so congrats on that. I hope nooK puts this guy and the lightning guy in, two fantastic heroes.
As for the weapon, yes they prolly didnt have guns then, but we're realistic but not TOO realistic. I believe he should hold a fan in one hand, to fit the old time strategist in fuedal Japan. And in other hand have the pistol, which he shoots a normal bullet with.
Cause if you notice, in all World War movies and games and games with armies etc the commander always have a pistol whereas the soliders have rifles. It would further show he is of power on the battlefield and enforces that he wont just charge to the front line like a normal soldier.
Thats what i think anyway. Regardless i hope to see him soon. Cause with the 0.9 release not having any new content or heroes which im pretty sure X.0's and X.5's are sapose to it would be great to have a new hero that everyone will actually love! Good work man.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 07.02.2007, 17:49
Damn...this is how tegeus-cromis must feel when everyone always compliments on his heroes (like Onmyoji and Teppo-taisho), like some of you now compliment on mine...Thanks! I just try to make myself useful :)
Re: Hero: Strategist
Shadow Phoenix - 09.02.2007, 01:40
Onmyoji...? Yeeeeaaahh.. not so much.. :P
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 09.02.2007, 02:40
i hesitate to agree with you shadow. a pistol is not a very samurai ish weapon. and i don't see how using a dagger is ninja ish (the ninja used unconventional weapons that the samurai had not been trained to fight against), then again the ninja is using a katana...which is not quite right. also a dagger can be very strategic (and you can makes some cool attack animations with it).
an potion that is a bit magical is using runes(inscribed on parchment) but thats magic ....
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 09.02.2007, 15:52
Pistols did exist and mostly only were given to very sharp shooters and trusted generals.And it is very realistic.But its not that crazy cause all know of stories of crazy skilled swordsman that would block bulets with theyr swords and slaughter thousands of gun man before dying.You all gota stop concentrating on the pistol problem and notice the fact that you have no good model to show for it.The only 2 good models are in use or been sugested.And this model is defenatly not a strategist its a duel weilding crazy girl.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Shadow Phoenix - 10.02.2007, 03:25
Uh, the Ninja's sword is straight, hence not a Katana (Unless a straight blade Katana, which are quite rare anyway) If anything its a really long Ninja-to.
If you notice most of their swords are straight (I think) except for the No-Dachi which has a Reverse blade Katana, which is a nice touch. Well actually, its a No-Dachi sword, lol. Used to taking out people on horses.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lord.DarthVader - 16.02.2007, 22:48
One idea for speels strategy of this unit:
I think for strategy guy nice be when add ''Order spell'' like this:
When Computer ally army attacking this guy to be able add order for one, two or more PC players to attack point or units enemy for XXsec.
Sorry for bad English..
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 17.02.2007, 21:31
im sorry but do you have any idea how litle sence that makes right there ><?
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 19.02.2007, 13:03
He said he was sorry for bad English...give the guy a break.
Re: Hero: Strategist
tegeus-Cromis - 20.02.2007, 08:12
Especially when your own English is none too spectacular, wizard.dark. There are a number of glaring errors in your signature, ffs.
It's pretty clear what the guy meant, anyway: give the hero a spell that, when used, orders some of the creeps to attack the hero that is attacking him.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 20.02.2007, 15:53
Ok well a few grammar mistakes and a total disaster of language is 2 totaly diffrent things.
I personaly couldnt understand exactly what the guy said at all...
Re: Hero: Strategist
tegeus-Cromis - 20.02.2007, 18:22
Yet I understood perfectly.
Sometimes it takes two users for a 'total disaster of language' to occur. . . .
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 05.03.2007, 06:21
ok i am just gonna try and revive this hero idea.
so it seems that all that is missing form this hero idea is a choice on the weapon of this hero and in tern a model.
so seeming as no one can come up with a logical/good idea for a ranged weapon for a samurai strategist. i mean how is a feather fan ever a weapon, it is a decoration of status, so carried by a lord maybe, and from time to time a strategist but it would never be used in battle. so fan is out, except maybe as a just a thing that he uses when casting skills(a casting animation involving a fan if it really is wanted). the only ranged weapon for a strategist that i can think of is a bow or crossbow(these where not used in japan as far ass i no) and a archer already exists. throwing daggers don't seem to be a samurai's weapon. and magic attacks would look silly on this hero.
so why can this hero not use a sword? a samurai would not lead from the back, it would be cowardly. and the sword was the weapon of choice for most samurai. so why not?
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 05.03.2007, 15:49
I still think he should have a fan if we can get a model and just have no attack...a substitutionary spell instead.Like grill from aotz ><
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 05.03.2007, 22:15
Anton, I respect your opinions, but...he is NOT a Samurai he is a Strategist. Even in times of feudal Japan not everyone was trained as a samurai. You have been watching too many movies. The leaders are not always on the front lines. I'm not saying they're never there, but a strategist in general stays back. Without someone smart to order troops around the result is disorder and defeat.
Now on another note Anton...I never said his weapon canno't be a sword. If you would read my earlier post you would see that I said "I would like for him to have a strategists fan" and "IF possible give him a fan." I also said that "IF we cannot give him a fan then let him keep the sword, but in that case all he needs is a hp buff." A sword just wasn't my favourite choice of weapon but if it saves us the trouble of searching high and low for a new weapon then I am 100% for using the sword as a weapon. Just buff the hitpoints by some amount and we're all set.
I am insulted. I have been told that I lack capability to read earlier posts and now this...
I apologize in advance if I offend you Anton.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 06.03.2007, 02:04
i apoligise i did not re read this threed befor i made that post i just wrote it based on my memory of the discushion(and i did it in a hury). i ment no ofence to eny1 and did not directly refer to eny ones ideas/posts because of nt re reading them. i just had a genril inpreshion that most people said this hero had to be ranged(not all), and i was just placing a counter argument. and i took no ofence man i was just tryign to get the ball rolling again.
as may have been said a hero without a normal attck is ither over powered or way under powered, in other words this would be a bitch to balance, and a horible hero to use.
so basicly im all out against him having a spell instead of normal attack.
also im yet to see some one offer a new (workable) idea for ranged weapon :)
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 06.03.2007, 03:17
All im saying it would be unique to introduce a hero with a spell instead of attack to this map and might draw more interest.When onmyoji was introduced he didnt keep people going "wow thats a cool new hero"cause he was just so powerfulll and simple.At least if we introduced something new and interesting such as Teppo taishi or a hero with spell for an attack people might go "hmm thats interesting i wana try this" and then have fun trying to master it.On the other hand people might say were just trying to copy aotz so yeah...watever lol.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 06.03.2007, 03:32
this map is already got a lot of things that are unique to it that make people want to try it. also this hero is original and interesting already. i really! want to see this hero in the map so i can try it out. the heroes dont have to be interesting and exiting for every person. and i think this would jsut make the hero annoying and frustrating to use.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lyncor - 06.03.2007, 03:36
It's not a lack of simplicity that impresses people. It's things looking cool and being balanced.
People didn't (And some still don't) like Onmyoji not because he's simple, but because of the overpoweredness. SL heroes look a lot less powerful on paper (Or website) than they actually are in game, so new heroes need to seem -underpowered- in order to be balanced at all.
That said, it's not simple or complicated heroes that make the hero aspect SL great. It's heroes that have many subtle ways of getting better at using them - heroes whose power is truly determined by the skill of the player. Example: Ronin.
Ronin is relatively simple. His skills are flashy, yes, but in concept they do basic things.
Ronin is the most skill based hero I have ever seen. There is so much subtlety and knowledge in using him well that it boggles me sometimes.
... go figure.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 06.03.2007, 06:04
I still say saving a simple pistol wouldn't be a bad thing...they had them in fudal japan for generals and the ilk. Though they weren't true pistols, they were merely short barreled or small rifles.
You could give him one and have a slow firing rate. Something tells me this hero should have an awesome attack anyway.
I really would love to see this hero deleloped. He'd be a great hero to deliver that final push to finish off a lane with his ult. Or to strength a ninja gank with his ambush party. Or slow a creep wave w/ fujin. Or just annoy the crap outta someone with evil seal.
umm small not tho, greel is the hero w/o an atk in AotZ
Re: Hero: Strategist
tegeus-Cromis - 06.03.2007, 13:00
Forbidden: Quote: Anton, I respect your opinions, but...he is NOT a Samurai he is a Strategist. Even in times of feudal Japan not everyone was trained as a samurai.
No, but a commander certainly would be.
I see no conceptual problem with his using a sword. It's true that you would not necessarily want your army's great strategist out in the frontlines swinging away, but that can simply be represented by giving him stats that would discourage the player from doing so.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 06.03.2007, 13:13
So you're saying give him a sword as a weapon but keep his stats low so it will be suicide to fight melee with him?
Isn't the Warlord the "commander" here?
Whatever, I still think we just keep that old guys model and buff his hp a little.
Re: Hero: Strategist
tegeus-Cromis - 06.03.2007, 13:41
I wouldn't go so far as that, but just make it so he is not most useful duking it out face-to-face(his skillset already suggests against that). He doesn't even need to be particularly fragile to achieve this effect: if he has okay durability, but crappy base damage and a slow attack, you'll still want to keep him back in a fight.
By commander, I just mean that he is in a position of leadership, even if he isn't overall-in-charge.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 09.03.2007, 11:51
I'm quite sure you noticed already that his attack power is the lowest of all heroes so far. So that's 1 of your suggestions already in motion. Then tell me your opinion about his agility, is that fine? And I'd also like peoples opinions on what would be an ideal amount of hp for him.
Just 1 thing though...If we do find some way to get him a ranged attack, what if he waved a fan and threw a needle (animation could be that of quillbeasts) at the enemy? Just a quick thought. I know it's not that different from a dagger but I somehow find it less ninja-like. This is probably because I got the idea from Suikoden 5, where only magician characters use a throwing needle weapon. I'd be happy with such and attack animation.
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 10.03.2007, 02:26
Actualy i do remmeber seen a samurai movie once where this magic girl through her needles around and stuff.But still werent needles an actual ninja art used for healing,stunning,knocking out and simply covering your enemy in painfull painfull pointy objects :P?
Re: Hero: Strategist
tegeus-Cromis - 10.03.2007, 09:38
Quote: I'm quite sure you noticed already that his attack power is the lowest of all heroes so far. So that's 1 of your suggestions already in motion. Then tell me your opinion about his agility, is that fine? And I'd also like peoples opinions on what would be an ideal amount of hp for him.
It all looks fine to me, and anyway that kind of thing can be sorted out in testing. My point, really, is just that it's not necessary to gve him a ranged weapon for him to be true to his theme.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 10.03.2007, 10:31
wizard.dark
Quote: Actualy i do remmeber seen a samurai movie once where this magic girl through her needles around and stuff.But still werent needles an actual ninja art used for healing,stunning,knocking out and simply covering your enemy in painfull painfull pointy objects ?
True. I know of this yes. As I said I let a game influence me abit. They were used by sticking them into nerve points that would take out a combatants limb or knock him out as you said.
tegeus-cromis
Quote: It all looks fine to me, and anyway that kind of thing can be sorted out in testing. My point, really, is just that it's not necessary to gve him a ranged weapon for him to be true to his theme.
Also true, 't was just my personal preference after all.
I just hope we actually get to the part where we can test with this guy. It's - once again - up to the guy sitting on that throne, nooK.
Now just what do you suggest we do about the hitpoints? What do you find to be an appropriate amount? Or will you keep what he has now and test first?
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 10.03.2007, 16:03
I belive if he goes below 1k hp at 20 hel be way to underpowered.If hel be ganked by any 2 heros hes out counting the fact that he has nothing really to save himself.Personaly i think it would be prety interesting to have him at bout 400 hp at lvl 1 and at bout 1000 hp at lvl 20 making him the weakest hero so making it more interesting.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 11.03.2007, 03:07
the use of neddles is a more strategic atack. this could work. also if hes ranged he needs to be week in the hps i think
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 21.03.2007, 12:23
Hey nooK was it you or MS (MetalSonic, when he was still around) that mixed the Nobunaga Oda model and the horseman models to form our Warlord model? Could it be possible to give the "old man" model a horse? A horse could signify his higher rank in the military and sure he could use a sword better then.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 22.03.2007, 01:20
do you mean a mounted version of the shinobi model?
Re: Hero: Strategist
Viziroth - 22.03.2007, 03:02
That'd be pretty cool.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Anton - 22.03.2007, 05:09
i don't think it would be that awsum at all.. it would or it would make the shinobi less awsum as a hero because his skin would have been reproduced on a different hero...
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 22.03.2007, 14:15
Ah are you crazy?shinobi is a ninja :( horse is a no no.
But maybe......Yumi or something on a horse would be alot better.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lord.DarthVader - 22.03.2007, 17:27
OH NO! Not Shinobi... Hey guys... Maybe add this girl to horse?
What think?
Re: Hero: Strategist
Forbidden - 22.03.2007, 17:54
Sry I spoke in a confusing way. Not Shinobis "old man". The "old man" already suggested for the model of this guy. He is old, right?
Re: Hero: Strategist
Andriejj - 22.03.2007, 18:05
You made this model Darth Vader? It looks great.
(to gdzie ty do szkoły chodzisz, że cię angielskiego nie uczą?)
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lord.DarthVader - 22.03.2007, 18:38
No not me... :P I have but dunno where find 3d max 5...
(Niestety już skończyłem naukę w szkole ;) uczyli tylko Rosyjskiego i Niemieckiego dlatego pisownia Angielskich wyrazów nie jest na najwyższym poziomie... ) :cry:
Forbidden wrote: Sry I spoke in a confusing way. Not Shinobis "old man". The "old man" already suggested for the model of this guy. He is old, right?
As I think that it will look like Shinobi in horse not new guy new Hero. Dunno maybe if add good texture and black hair be ok. I prefer personally new models for new Hero in map and thats more cool. ;) What think about this girl looks bad for Strat.?
Re: Hero: Strategist
wizard.dark - 22.03.2007, 19:23
The model itself is awseme but defenatly not a strategist hero. Although i couldnt clasify her as an assasin hero eather.Actualy i think overall would be a really cool misterious hero to add to map :D.
Re: Hero: Strategist
Lord.DarthVader - 21.04.2007, 22:41
Shinobi in horse and Ninja in Kodo. Download map and check this! Upload special for Forbiden guy.
:P
DL MAP HERE: http://voila.pl/zs7o5/index.php?get=1&f=1
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