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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Lyncor - Viziroth - tegeus-Cromis - Omerta - V I O L A D O R - Shinkirou - Gennosuke Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: General Antworten: 10 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends? Letzte Antwort: vor 15 Jahren, 5 Monaten, 24 Tagen, 10 Stunden, 24 Minuten
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Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Lyncor - 06.03.2007, 00:17FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
All right, I'm going to post this and hope someone stickies it or something. I'm sick of people asking this :)
Question: Will there be an AI version of SL?
Short answer: No.
Long answer:
Odds are that even if you were able to write extremely good AI, it still wouldn't come close to facing a real skilled opponent.
Sure, you could use movement-prediction subroutines for aiming Flying Death and other such skills. It would be hard, but if you were skilled enough, you could do it. Even then, it wouldn't be perfect. All it would take is a few games for a player to learn how to exploit the AI, no matter how good. Players would learn when the program uses skills, in what manner... soon enough, hero battles would be a matter of practiced sequences of maneuvers.
However, with flesh-and-blood opponents, combat is not like that. It would not give anything like a true indication of the map's hero-fighting dynamics, nor would it sufficiently prepare you for facing skilled human opponents. To the contrary, most skilled opponents would know how to beat the AI as well - and use that knowledge against the player who is accustomed to it. Overall, it would make for less creativity and ingenuity in designing and performing hero-based combat techniques among the Samurai Legends community - which leads to lower quality game-play. Nobody wants that..
Then there's the matter of strategy. AI players would not have the same cunning as real players - they'd be locked down into specific strategies, which once learned could easily be exploited. The players would be able to predict when things such as armies will attack, where they will attack and what will be needed in order to counter them. Additionally, the AI would likely be bound to a specific shrining pattern - if that's what it's designed to do - and therefore would be predictable and thus easily counterable.
It's just not the same!
And then, there's another issue: The level of complexity of strategy and programmed use of skills would only be as good as the player who is writing the AI. If the person coding it thinks that buying a whole lot of items will win the game, then the AI will end up doing that as well - because the programmer will design the program to be as difficult to beat as possible and thus use their own understanding of the game's strategies to build the AI. However, as all experienced SL players know, buying a whole lot of items will -not- win the game if the enemy team pools for shrines and eventually legendary armies - and pooling every penny for shrines is useless if you can't get any honour. There's a time to spend all your gold on shrines, and there's also a time to spend a lot of gold on items to help you get the honour that you need for shrines. Would the AI be able to decide when it's time for each? It would have to be more advanced than any game-based AI that I've seen in the past.
Therefore, to make a good AI version of Samurai Legends, the programmer would have to be both extremely skilled in his coding and extremely skilled at the map itself. Then there's the issue of different versions, which means constant updating to the AI. Therefore, the person undertaking this task would have to have nearly unlimited hours of spare time on their hands - and they'd likely spend so much time building and testing the AI that they'd fall behind on the strategies and skills required to make it worth playing.
No such person exists that has the skill, the knowledge, the experience and the spare time to develop an AI version of the game.
It just won't happen, folks.
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Viziroth - 06.03.2007, 05:54
I wouldn't say there isn't someone who has the skill to create said AI, however said task would be much beneath them for they're probably programming for the military, big business, science, or usuless chess robots.... And such AI would take thousands of lines per single skill...not to mention advanced techniques such as ganks and unorthadox techniques such as canceling airy charge would take many lines alone. So we're talking uncountable lines.
So the problem isn't that no one is skilled enough. The only true factor is time. The process to program proper AI for one hero alone, say ronin, would take a year to equal the prowless of a skilled player...
Any situation encountered can be solved with an If...then, If...else...then, or a If...and if....then there would just be a lotta of em T.T
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
tegeus-Cromis - 06.03.2007, 13:51
This should definitely be stickied. Too many people are asking for this without thinking of what it would take. Even DotA (which, though I'm in the minority of SL players who enjoy it, I definitely agree takes less skill to achieve basic competence in) doesn't have a decent AI after many AI versions.
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Omerta - 06.03.2007, 16:36
tegeus-Cromis wrote: This should definitely be stickied.
Agreed and done.
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
V I O L A D O R - 06.03.2007, 20:40ALL OF YOU ARE REALLY WRONG
OK OK OK,... only one thing,... of course that AI is less intelligent than the HI (Human Intelligent),... but this doesn´t mean, that the AI will be so strong and difficult.
There is an amazing map,.. its name 3 Corridors - Feel tha hero,... the last version is 4.7b,... this map has the best AI that i have seen. His creator UGn,... from Russia, told me one time, that put a map with AI is not problem,.. the problem is if the combination of the spells of the heroes are not good,... and other things like that,...
... It´s really right like you think,... but in the UGn's map,... one bye one challenge is really difficult for the begginers,... but for the proffesionals like me in this map,.. is so difficult win against more than 3 AIs, alone. The size of this map is small,... so the map of SL is really big,... so if someone play against 3 AIs in SL with AI, i don´t think that anyone of you can win. And that´s not all,... for example,... in the UGn's map you can choose certain combination of AIs,... like team 1,.. this team is the best and more difficult to win,... you can put at the beggining of the game -team 1 to see that,... and don´t forget that there are 3 options for the AI (easy, normal and insane).
The AI option in a map,.. is for the people that can´t be online,... that can´t play with friends with Local Area Network,... that can´t be online with you,... and that can´t play this map in other Server because play only DOTA or something like that.
You can download the map of UGn in the next link:
http://ugn.boom.ru
Probe it,... is really astonishing because is a easy map,... like this,... little in size less than 1Mb,...
and YEAH¡ it´s difficult make a map with AI,... but it´s better that nook take it like a project for some years,... maybe he will make this map with the best Ai that the world have seen,... All of us that like this map but better with AI can wait 3 years DUDES.
GREETINGS ...
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Viziroth - 06.03.2007, 21:34
we arn`t worried bout too strong we`re worrid bout too weak. the proper playing of this game requires the cognitive skills of a human or advanced com like deep blue
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Lyncor - 06.03.2007, 22:05
Violator... did you actually read my post, or?
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Shinkirou - 03.08.2007, 22:25
It's sad to see how ignorant people can be. Seriously, there are multiple DoTA's that have AI. The AI has no need to be a god like. In fact the whole freaking point of an AI is to help newbies practice. Of course it's not like fighting a freaking human. Of course it would take some time to program the AI.
However, you guys forget that not everyone can play on battle net, or have multiple friends play the game at one time. Besides, if the human is better than the AI than it would make any newcomers feel weak or pathetic and even useless. AI is a way for humans to practice at something to get better. Once they can beat the AI (without using glitches and what not) then they can take a step up to the bigger leagues, and not be really really crappy players who have no idea what they're doing.
Also saying something impossible is just a cheap excuse for saying you cant do it. If any AI programmer really wanted to they could make an AI that ALWAYS BEATS the human player. I've seen an AI that has been made like that for a game. Trust me it's not as hard as it seems. Its the fact no one would invest that kind of time into one map that makes it improbable to find such great AI.
So don't shoot down the whole AI idea when it's damn well logical to do.
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Gennosuke - 05.10.2007, 08:40
I think Shinkirou is right guys! Beginners can practice playing this map with AI.. Players who cant play online and LAN can really use AI. I really like the map guys but i'm still a newbie.. playing it online is like going to war without a weapon.. so please guys dont shut the AI stuffs.. i can wait..
Re: FAQ: Will there be an AI version of Samurai Legends?
Gennosuke - 05.10.2007, 08:44
"Also saying something impossible is just a cheap excuse for saying you cant do it."
hmmm.. I wonder... can you guys really do it or not?
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