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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Tjuvarnas_herre - nooK - Skirn - Lyncor - tegeus-Cromis - Reaper - Shadow Phoenix - wizard.dark - Anton - Yui - Flargen_Blargen - Forbidden Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Strategy section Antworten: 57 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Best 4v4 line up? Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 1 Monat, 11 Tagen, 14 Stunden, 10 Minuten
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Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Tjuvarnas_herre - 13.01.2007, 01:27Best 4v4 line up?
Whats the best 4v4 line up?
I think the best 4v4 line up would be:
Warlord for insane pushing and he is a decent hero killer.
Shugenja also for insane pushing, he got nice nukes and the mana reg is really nice for the team.
No-Dachi is a good killer and can push really nice whit the ulti and fire thing.
Can't decide who the fourth hero should be.
Suggestions?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
nooK - 13.01.2007, 02:29
I would pick Warlord in every lineup, for 4v4 allrounders are the best choice I guess, so..
Warlord, No-Dachi + Onmyoji/Shinobi/Ninja (2 of these 3)
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Skirn - 13.01.2007, 06:13
I think the best 4v4 line up is a bit different, but similiar.
Warlord - Yes. For three reasons: Pushing (Creep healing/Damage) Hero saving (Healing heroes is great!) and Teppo allows him to help other heroes kill heroes a lot. Add in dragonsouls for killing both creeps and heroes, and you got something great for small games.
Onmyonji - His ability to kill entire armies with ease is saddening.
Made more sad that it works on heroes too. Makes pushing/Hero battles a breeze when done right. Also, very hard to kill.
No-Dachi - The jack of all trades has to be useful here, it's a small game. Rising Dragon (And order) allows him to fight other heroes well. Blaze lets him clear creeps, and Order let's him siege/Survive exceptionally well.
Ronin - Why Ronin one may ask?
I say one thing: You need honor, and the Ronin can get it. Those stuns will be essential in hero battles.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 13.01.2007, 08:14
Ronin
Warlord
Ninja
Yari
Ronin and Ninja combined, especially if you toss in Yari or Warlord, means honour. Yari is extremely hard to kill, Warlord's pretty hard to kill if he's good, Ninja's also tough and can wipe out armies with his ult.. a good Ronin is hard to kill..
Essentially, these heroes together also have tried and true combos. Warlord and Yari are excellent for siege, and Ronin and Ninja are excellent for defense.
This is a good, balanced lineup.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 13.01.2007, 15:09
It seems to me that the No Dachi is strictly better than the Yari in such a line-up. Stacked with Helmets, he'll be the toughest hero and the most physically damaging; the Yari on the other hand is a tank whose skills basically cry out 'don't hit me'.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Reaper - 13.01.2007, 17:36
I got several hundred honour under my belt that disagrees with you there.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 14.01.2007, 00:59
I say: No Dachi pwns more than Yari.
You say: But, but I always pwn with Yari!
I say: Irrelevant, unless you mean to say that you are at the same time unable to pwn with No Dachi. Which would be rather sad.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 14.01.2007, 04:55
It's possible, Tegeus, that you have not fought against a truly fearsome Yari player.
Those guys are MEAN. They just... destroy you. If you don't oppose them, they siege you to death. If you oppose them, they out-lane you by not dying where you do. If they go hunting with an ally... well, you'd better hope that they don't shatter every bone in your body. It just hurts.
What's more, a Yari is extremely useful in team ganks. Whirl does a LOT of damage, and the push-back factor gives you a whole lot of extra distance to kill them along before they can even think about getting away. Whirl also has defensive uses, where the Yari can save a team-mate's life by smacking away the attacker as the wounded ally runs. No Dachi mostly just deals insane damage on them, and can surround (Not that well)/escape/block with his ult. He's more of a solo hero than a teamwork-based one.
No-Dachi is nasty, yes, but.. a lot of the reason for it is because he's easier to play than Yari, so the average ND you face is more deadly than the average Yari. Yari is just... so much more of a skill based hero than ND is, really.
ND also needs a nerf, whereas Yari does not - a difficulty-to-use increase, and an endgame DPS nerf. I'm taking that into account in my build.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 14.01.2007, 10:50
The fault i see in said statement:
Quote: It seems to me that the No Dachi is strictly better than the Yari in such a line-up. Stacked with Helmets, he'll be the toughest hero and the most physically damaging
That saddens me, a hero cant be "Better" cause you stack items. That doesnt make the Dachi better, that makes item stacking better. Which is very different.
Stacking items doesnt = skill.
And as Lyncor says, Dachi in his current state isnt finished, hes still over powered and unpolished as Onmyoji is (Though hes pretty much sorted now, yay!)
So yes, makes sense a imba hero is maybe better than a fair balanced one.
Especially since ive seen Reaper as Yari, and having played alot of the cheese that is Dachi, know how easy he is to pwn with. While Yari yes does take much more skill.
Anyway, on the whole i disagree. :)
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Skirn - 14.01.2007, 12:54
Heh, hate to join the bandwagon but it's true.
I based the 4v4 lineup I gave based on the assumption that all 4 players are only above average instead exceptional. Lyncor, Shadow, and Reaper are assuming it's a game with exceptional players (Which is completly possible now adays.)
With that, I would entirely agree with them. Yari would beat No-Dachi in the rooster without a single question for a wide variety of reasons. The main three however are this.
1: Yari's nuke is more then just a nuke. Whirl can be used so much more devastating then Rising Dragon can. Sure, you need to get into melee range, but with some skill, you can use this to throw them into other nukes, creeps, traps, and even stop them from chasing one of your friendly heroes.
2: Laning for Yari comes much more naturally then with No-Dachi. For No-Dachi, who needs to get into melee range and actually put himself on the 'Going to get hit' places to attack towers and units (Unless he's using Blaze, in which case he's still in range, just circling with flames.) Yari has a spear and Sha'Technique to do his bidding. That 200 range does let a Yari who knows what he's doing kill the creeps without ever taking a hit himself. Being able to do this let's him reach the towers with a large army without himself being hindered. Something a lot of people seriously underestimate in private games-- For reason number 3.
3: If a No-Dachi dies to a 4-way gank, or a sudden burst of nukes, it's actually understandable. If timed correctly, they can get him while order is down, and stuns/slows can give them enough time to easily finish the No-Dachi before he has a chance to escape.
If the Yari dies, he frakked up. Battlerage and Oni when used properly can literally make this thing survive when 4 people are trying (And I mean 4 skilled people really TRYING) to kill him. This survivability is a godsend in skilled games, where honor starvation is key.
That said, I'd like noted, in a one on one, with both players of equal skill, I think the No-Dachi would win against the Yari. But that's not the only thing to be looked at, now is it?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
nooK - 14.01.2007, 13:08
Quote: And as Lyncor says, Dachi in his current state isnt finished, hes still over powered and unpolished as Onmyoji is (Though hes pretty much sorted now, yay!)
overpowered/imba != unpolished
Balance wise both heroes will be changed for 0.87, but no polishing.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
wizard.dark - 31.01.2007, 21:24
the best line up....considering what you want to be done id say:
Warlord(duh)lol obviously u cant exclude him,used right can be perfect pusher and a pro hero killer.
Yari, simply irretating late game and a good hero killer he can absorb damage while been in a zerg.
Yumi,staying back and firing with her ultimate and strafe she can help push while staying safe with traps.
No dachi,simply because he has very nice damage overall he can proly take out a hero by a fountain so he could keep your party safe during a zerg.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Anton - 01.02.2007, 01:55
i do not like 4vs 4 because it is allot more individual based...and i like sl because it is a game that requires team work.
but the line up that i think would be the best would be:
-ninja
-warlord
-no-dichi
-yari
why:because all of these heroes (except the ninja) can lane very well, and the ninja can kill huge pushes with flying daggers. also all of these heroes can hero kill quite well and together (espeshily with the ninja) they can kill heroes easy (in the hands of a good hero), also the ninja is your most frail hero and a good ninja just doesn't die unless against a huge gank or a good ronin/ninja, this means that it will not be hard to starve the other team of honor. so basically you have a team of all-rounders and the ninja to get you honor. sounds effective to me. and havening so many pushing heroes will help allot end game. also yari + warlord pushing a lane is something to be feared and respected.
p.s. as much as i wanted to put the yumi in there she is to frail and will be the target of to many ganks and most likely the source of most of the other teams honor, it is the same story with the omny, and i didn't put the ronin in for the same reason, while he is a awsum hero killer, in the wrong hands he just dies so fast. the shinobi could be switched with the no-dichi but i would not recommend this unless the person is far better with the shinobi.
p.s. i assume we are talking about the most recent version because if you mean 0.7 then it would be so different. for 0.7 i would have:
-yumi
-ninja
-warlord
-shinobi
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Yui - 01.02.2007, 08:44
Mmmm, lets see here, Yari, Ninja, Warlord, Yari
Warlord can just constantly keep everyone uber while killing stuff himself, Yari = Ichiban for tanking, ninja is a great HK'er and PvE because of his AOE and slow, and yumi for siege.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Flargen_Blargen - 03.02.2007, 05:47wat i think
1.ninja
2.ronin
3.warlord
4.yumi
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 04.02.2007, 23:33
Heh, this is a really late reply, but oh well:
Shadow Phoenix: Quote: That saddens me, a hero cant be "Better" cause you stack items. That doesnt make the Dachi better, that makes item stacking better. Which is very different.
This would be a valid point if item stacking were equally effective on all heroes.
This is not the case.
Quote: Stacking items doesnt = skill.
1) How is this relevant to a comparison of No Dachi and Yari?
2) I am sure you'll agree that buying stupid, ineffective items displays lack of skill. Therefore, knowing what an effective item build is = a display of skill, albeit of a very foundational sort.
Quote: So yes, makes sense a imba hero is maybe better than a fair balanced one.
Especially since ive seen Reaper as Yari, and having played alot of the cheese that is Dachi, know how easy he is to pwn with. While Yari yes does take much more skill.
Anyway, on the whole i disagree.
I say: No Dachi is strictly better than the Yari.
You say: No Dachi is overpowered. No Dachi is not yet balanced. No Dachi is easy to pwn with.
Then you say: I disagree with you.
Huh?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
wizard.dark - 05.02.2007, 03:32
That last "conversation" you had with yourself totaly makes the whole post look stupid.
No dachi isnt powerfull...there is no such thing as powerfull hero.
All heros are classified in theyr own way such as Yari=tank warlord=healer,hero killer,pusher (anything you want him to be :D) yumi=strict sieger ronin=hero killer and so on and so forth....
No dachi,he is just overpowered he can do anything any time any where and the worse thing i cant realy clasify him.The only down side to no dachi is that he cant really save people like alot of heros can (yumi,ronin,warlord,yari,ninja,shinobi) well other then the order...which is prety hard.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Anton - 05.02.2007, 04:41
ok, its like this: the no-dachi is an hero that is easy to use. its like an easy ninja. he has a lot of damage and to much 'tanky' ness. could you imagine using the ninja and all his skills being easy to use... i cant, but the no-dachi is something like that with some tanky ness added in.
the main problem of the no-dachi is not his power or damge but that he is too easy to learn how to use well. also while he does not have a stun skill he has a blink strike skill (with no delay on normal attacking after the skill), and he also has a critical strike which means you can just click on a hero (no aim required), teleport to the hero and deal up to 500 damage when you combine it with the immediate swing of the sword afterward. whats more, the skill itself is way too hard to avoid for a skill that needs no skill to use. i think the amount of time in the air should be a lot longer so you can react in time to use counter-type skills to evade the damage.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 06.02.2007, 05:58
I incline to agree with Anton, about the No-Dachi anyway.
Onmy and Dachi have the same problem as the two new heros to SL. They are EASY chars to use, its alot of point and click. They dont have skill related skills.
Putting more air time in Rising Dragon would be great. it reminds me of the move "Jump" that a Dragoon can do in the earlier final fantasy games. If you add in more air time then the enemy can use escape skills or anti magic, and also they can lead the Dachi into their towers or towards their heroes, making it a skill where you have to really think before you use it. And perhaps a one second delay after using it would be good, or something.
And im not gonna get started on Onmy, though i think its alot better now with the 0.9 changes, so thanks for listening to the peoples nooK, keep up the good work, we all appreciate it :D
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 08.02.2007, 21:57
wizard.dark: Quote: That last "conversation" you had with yourself totaly makes the whole post look stupid.
Your name makes you look stupid.
^Both that statement and yours are purely matters of opinion. Both are irrelevant to the discussion.
Quote: No dachi isnt powerfull...there is no such thing as powerfull hero. . . .
No dachi,he is just overpowered
Nice one there, Sherlock. :roll:
-
I agree that adding air-time to Rising Dragon would be a good idea. In addition to what's been mentioned, it would also reduce its power in a pitched battle, since a long enough air-time would mean that you almost could have just walked to your target anyway. It would make it more of a pure nuke skill and less of an omgpwn mobility skill, though it would still be useful for chasing.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Anton - 09.02.2007, 01:17
theres no need to pick apart words to try and prove a point. it just look kinda childish.
all where saying is that the more powerful skills require very little skill on the no-dachi, which is the case with other heroes such ass the ronins Flying death and the yumis strafe. its not just click and garenteed damage. in other words a good player can doge most heroes powerful damaging skills but with the no-dachi there is not allot you can do except stun him. also it dose not help that all of the no-dachi's skills (except his ulti) are awsum.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 09.02.2007, 01:53
Indeed, that why i suggested more air time to stop from just being always blinked striked by Rising Dragon.
And also the 1 second delay after it would stop people from Rising dragon -> Crit, which is nasty cause at the moment the No Dachi can instantly hit after using the skill.
And yes Dachi has skills which are easy to use in every situation.
Blaze = Kill all creep without aiming, just running around.
Crit = Lots of damage, especially if you land one STRAIGHT after Rising which ends up being over 400 damage for a normal skill.
Order = Yeeaahh.. i like it just cause its cool. But i must admit it does suck, which is fair enough since his other skills make him pwn so hard
Current Rising Dragon = Blink Strike, instant damage, not interruptible (Unless someone uses anti magic with lighting reflexes) I dont have a num pad on my lappy damnit.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 09.02.2007, 03:36
Well the fact is, you shouldn't need an -item- to counter a -regular skill-. There should be skill-based counters for it - such as counter jumping (Currently only possible when you frankly get lucky and happen to jump at the same time - yet works on most other skills), using Shadow to evade (Works on FD - why not on RD?), using Dragonsoul to mess up the path (Largely luck based, but actually works on Flying Death and I think on Flying Daggers), using Whirl to smack them the hell away (Works on Airy Charge, Flying Daggers, Strafe, Dragonsouls)....
....the list goes on and on, but not a single one effectively counters Rising Dragon except Shikigami and Old Man's Friend - which to be honest aren't really skill based abilities much at all in terms of their countering. They're just manual reflex dodges, all that you need to do is press the button. Other counters require you to press the button and then aim it in order to successfully pull off the counter.
Rising Dragon needs to spend longer in the air so that it's possible to visually counter it with skill-based counters. Perhaps some kind of movement clause would also be nice - if you're moving at an insane speed (Aka, skywalker running) then it should miss you. Heck, you try hitting someone with any other skills besides Airy Charge when they're skywalker running - it's extremely difficult, if not impossible with ones like Shuriken and Flying Death. With RD, it's child's play - all you need is to be in range and boom, instant damage and free hit at the end where you have a chance to crit.
When I'm killed by a Ronin using Flying Death, I feel like I've messed up - that he's out-skilled me.
When I'm killed with a No Dachi using Rising Dragon, I feel cheated.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 09.02.2007, 04:50
Anton: Quote: theres no need to pick apart words to try and prove a point. it just look kinda childish.
Pointing out that someone has blatantly contradicted himself is hardly 'picking apart words'.
Lyncor: I think it is right that RD should be guaranteed, point and click damage--it is a single target telenuke, after all. FD and others are AOE, and being harder to use is simply the price you pay for that..
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 09.02.2007, 05:05
So you think it's -right- that in a game based on the premise that the main attacks of heroes are based on skill, the main attack for this hero is not?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 09.02.2007, 11:52
The only reason this is his 'main attack' is that his other actives are not easily applied to a hero vs hero battle. Ninja's Net, Warlord's Teppo and Ronin's Airy Charge are all also ranged, homing, single-target skills, and they are all good in their way. Is that somehow okay just because each of those heroes has one or more other good hero vs hero actives?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
wizard.dark - 09.02.2007, 16:00
Dunno wat the hell your talking about i can do just fine with no dachi a whole game using NO other skill then rising dragon and geting most kills+no deaths.That skill needs to be nerfed point blank.
Btw Onmyojis lance is now actualy dodgable and now needs a buff lmao.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Forbidden - 09.02.2007, 16:25
Are you saying it's a bad thing the lance is dodgeable? :?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
wizard.dark - 09.02.2007, 18:15
not at all,im saying now that its finaly dodgable its a very low damage nuke.
I mean when i see him use it on yari i can practicly see his health go up (from health restoration ofcaurse)instead of down because it does such low damage ><.Im very happy that its dodgable now but i think that damage should be slightly increased.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 09.02.2007, 18:15
tegeus-Cromis wrote: The only reason this is his 'main attack' is that his other actives are not easily applied to a hero vs hero battle. Ninja's Net, Warlord's Teppo and Ronin's Airy Charge are all also ranged, homing, single-target skills, and they are all good in their way. Is that somehow okay just because each of those heroes has one or more other good hero vs hero actives?
Airy Charge takes long enough that you can easily counter it, if you have the ability and skill to do so.
Ninja's Net can be countered with Negation/Dispel, you can use a multitude of skills to move around and/or be useful while in it... it is by NO means unavoidable.
Warlord's Teppo can be counter-jumped by a skilled Ronin, and if hit by it the slow can be countered with Skywalkers or 'movement skill'.
Rising Dragon, however, is pretty much guaranteed full effect.
How is crit not easily applied to hero battles?
There's a difference between 'good' and 'too easy to use'. Perhaps Teppo -should- be a little slower to cast so that it's more counterable? The issue here is Rising Dragon, and the No Dachi in general. He's not a skill-based hero, and that makes him stick out like a sore thumb.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
wizard.dark - 09.02.2007, 19:07
to bad theres really no way to make it a skill ability because it cant target ground cause we cant forge it into an aoe all the sudden wanting to keep it single target nuke.Perhaps increasing cool down might make it more reasonable cause it is prety spammable at this point and can easely be used over 5 times while chasing somone down.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 10.02.2007, 04:45
Well you could use my suggestion and wizard's combined, and increase the air time -and- cooldown.
Essentially what I'm getting at here is that it needs to be not-that-useful unless you KNOW WHEN TO USE IT, because otherwise they will COUNTER YOU. Currently you just spam it and usually win, because there's nothing people can do about it besides stunlock you - which, in SL, is difficult to achieve in itself on a Str hero.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 10.02.2007, 07:10
Look, I am not arguing that RD is balanced. It isn't, it's too strong (one of the reasons I argued that the No Dachi is strictly superior to the Yari atm). But I disagree that the solution to this is adding all kinds of complications like a casting delay, 1 second where you can't attack after using it, etc. Limit nerfs to sensible air-time, damage, cooldown, mana cost, or range nerfs and I am all for it (as I stated in an earlier post).
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 10.02.2007, 10:47
So you'd be for adding 1-2 extra seconds to the air-time?
The loss of control for a small amount of time afterward is simply to prevent the 'auto-slash' that occurs after a Rising Dragon, which significantly boosts the damage of the nuke (Well into the imba levels). Airy Charge has one - I think RD should too.
And yes, the cooldown needs to be increased.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 11.02.2007, 07:01
I don't see a problem with the auto-slash. Just lower the RD damage to compensate. That's better than just preventing attacks after RD, because it makes RD weaker in the early game, when your normal attack does not deal very much and you probably haven't maxed crit.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 11.02.2007, 10:53
Interesting idea, severely dropping the nuke damage to compensate. I like it.
I'll work on some damage readings when I find a moment :)
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Forbidden - 11.02.2007, 12:18
To me it sounds like giving Leto Atreides or Warden from ToB critical strike. Those two move around like mad with their skills. This idea makes Rising seem like a blink with minimal damage. I imagine it could be pretty nasty to give someone like Leto Critical strike.
It would have to be real damn accurately calculated to make it effective, since No-Dachi can only target units with Rising Dragon and it has longer cooldown than Wardens blink or Letos Prana Bindu.
It's also pretty random that you deal either 70 damage from a normal attack or 200 damage with a critical. Didn't we all agree that randomness does not equal skill?
This may not necessarily be a bad idea though. I wish to see more before I can judge it. Lync try posting your damage calculations. I wish to see.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 11.02.2007, 14:54
After a few hours of number crunching (You better appreciate this), here we go:
Code: Rising Dragon:
Level 1 - 90
Level 2 - 140
Level 3 - 190
Level 4 - 240
Level 5 - 290
Critical Strike:
Level 1 - 10% / 1.5x = 1.15x raw damage boost
Level 2 - 10% / 2.0x = 1.20x raw damage boost
Level 3 - 15% / 2.0x = 1.30x raw damage boost
Level 4 - 15% / 2.5x = 1.325x raw damage boost
Level 5 - 20% / 2.5x = 1.5x raw damage boost
Attack damage:
Level Damage Str(2.5) Agi(1.6) Crit(1st) Crit(2nd) Crit(3rd) Crit(3rd+Ult)
1 31-36 - 20 str - 18 agi - 46-54 - N/A - N/A - N/A
2 33-38 - 22 str - 19 agi - 50-57 - 50-57 - N/A - N/A
3 36-41 - 25 str - 21 agi - 72-82 - 54-62 - N/A - N/A
4 38-43 - 27 str - 23 agi - 76-86 - 76-86 - N/A - N/A
5 41-46 - 25 str - 24 agi - 82-92 - 82-92 - N/A - N/A
6 43-48 - 32 str - 26 agi - 86-96 - 86-96 - N/A - N/A
7 46-51 - 35 str - 28 agi - 115-102 - 92-102 - N/A - N/A
8 48-53 - 37 str - 29 agi - 120-133 - 120-133 - N/A - N/A
9 51-56 - 40 str - 31 agi - 128-140 - 128-140 - N/A - N/A
10 53-58 - 42 str - 33 agi - 133-145 - 133-145 - N/A - N/A
11 56-61 - 45 str - 35 agi - 140-153 - 140-153 - 84-92 - N/A
12 58-63 - 47 str - 36 agi - 145-158 - 145-158 - 116-126 - N/A
13 61-66 - 50 str - 38 agi - 153-165 - 153-165 - 122-132 - N/A
14 63-68 - 52 str - 40 agi - 158-170 - 158-170 - 158-170 - 95-102
15 66-71 - 55 str - 41 agi - 156-178 - 156-178 - 156-178 - 99-107
16 68-73 - 57 str - 43 agi - 170-183 - 170-183 - 170-183 - 136-146
17 71-76 - 60 str - 45 agi - 178-190 - 178-190 - 178-190 - 142-152
18 73-78 - 62 str - 46 agi - 183-195 - 183-195 - 183-195 - 146-156
19 76-81 - 65 str - 48 agi - 190-203 - 190-203 - 190-203 - 190-203
20 78-83 - 67 str - 50 agi - 195-208 - 195-208 - 195-208 - 195-208
Edit: Clarification:
Crit(1st) = Crit as first skill
Crit(2nd) = Crit as second skill
Crit(3rd) = Crit as third skill
Crit(3rd+ult) = Crit as third skill, getting the ulti as well.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 11.02.2007, 16:13
In light of having the numbers right in front of me, I propose:
Stats:
Code: -Decrease base agility by 8
-Decrease agility progression to 1.5
(Agility would now be 10-40, instead of 18-50. Quite frankly, he attacks too quickly and has too much armour.)
-Decrease base armour to 0
(Armour would change from 3-12 to 2-8, including the agi nerf)
-Decrease base strength by 2
(Strength would now be 18-65, instead of 20-67. This reduces his base damage by 2 and his life by 50.)
(I did not have the time to examine his intel/mana.)
Skills:
Rising Dragon:
Change the damage of Rising Dragon as follows. These values are generated by damage calculations taking into account the free normal attack that he recieves after using the skill. Furthermore, these damage calculations are assuming the air-time modification proposed below.
Code: Damage of Rising Dragon:
Level 1 - 50 damage
Level 2 - 90 damage
Level 3 - 130 damage
Level 4 - 170 damage
Level 5 - 210 damage
As discussed in this topic, the air time of Rising Dragon is too short - making it a skill that is almost uncounterable by other skill-based abilities. This needs to change.
Code: -Increase the air time of Rising Dragon by 1.5 seconds
Additionally, as previously discussed, RD is a tad too spammable. Therefore,
Code: Increase the cooldown of Rising Dragon to be equal to that of Flying Death.
Currently, Shadow (Ninja) does not counter this skill. However, it most definitely should.
Code: -Make it so that the skill will miss if the unit has the 'Shadow' buff on it, which the Ninja receives when he turns invisible.
Lastly, the un-dodgeability of Rising Dragon needs to be addressed. While (Assuming the damage nerf), it is fair that this skill can only be dodged by other skills at a normal running speed, most skills can in fact be countered by Skywalker Boots and Blink. RD also needs to also be counterable by these things. To that end:
Code: -Add a clause into the skill where it will miss if the target's distance from the point of casting increases by a value that requires a movement speed of 400 from the fleeing target to achieve at maximum casting range of the skill.
(Yes, this last one will require a bit of calculation. However, it -is- necessary.)
If these changes are implemented, the No Dachi Samurai will be a lot more balanced. Furthermore, Rising Dragon will no longer be anywhere near as cheap and lame - for it will require timing on the part of the No Dachi Samurai's player in order to not be successfully countered. Furthermore, due to the agility nerf and slight strength nerf, he will have a more fair damage-to-survivability rating.
If anyone has any questions, and/or wants any clarification about what I mean or why I suggested certain things, please ask.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 11.02.2007, 22:46
The only thing I disagree with is making RD dodgeable simply by moving very quickly. That would make dodging it almost skilless--just use Skywalker or any blink type ability (combined with running, ofc) the moment No Dachi uses FD and he will always miss. No timing required.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 12.02.2007, 00:27
Hmm... any ideas for a replacement for that, then? Or just drop that aspect altogether?
'Cause, well, you can do that for most abilities anyway - shuriken, FD, whirl, dragonsouls, fujin...
Maybe 50% miss chance?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 12.02.2007, 00:38
That might actually be good, cause as per already stated, you can outrun Shuriken, FD and others.
And think about it, in a hero battle you would have to sacrifice your skywalkers, or one of your skills to merely get away instead of use it offensively.
Also, if theres more than one hero in the area, you wouldnt know which one the No-Dachi is targeting. Which means, lets say a 3V3 hero fight, Dachi uses RD, all of the enemy heroes scramble and use their escape skills or try to run to get out of the range, then they are significantly disadvantaged cause they've used their escape skills, at which point the other heroes can jump in.
And personally i dont think blink should even be in this game, if everyone buys it then EVERYONE has an escape skill whereas people who already have one now have two, but thats just me.
And theres also the fact, as Lyncor said, the Dachi would have to wait for the best moment to use it, like just after your enemy has used their escape skill offensively, and also you must take into account that if a Dachi runs up next to you and casts RD, do you really think you could click on your skywalkers, turn and run out of the range in about 2, 2.5 seconds? Doubt it, what Lyncor was meaning if you so had to be using Skywalkers at the time and the Dachi flies up if you were already far enough away you might have a chance to bolt off. a 50% miss chance if they got out of range would be good i think.
All in all i think those calculations are good. Just gotta be careful hes not getting overnerfed.
So at the end of it all, i agree and support the proposed changes.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 12.02.2007, 00:40
Overnerfed is easy to fix :)
And thanks Shadow, and Tegeus.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 12.02.2007, 09:11
Lyncor: Quote: Hmm... any ideas for a replacement for that, then? Or just drop that aspect altogether?
'Cause, well, you can do that for most abilities anyway - shuriken, FD, whirl, dragonsouls, fujin...
Maybe 50% miss chance?
I would suggest just dropping it. Consider, please, that all those abilities have good reasons to be dodgeable--
Shuriken: Spell is on a hero who already has an ensnare, telenuke, and bonus damage WW!
FD: Spell is an AOE nuke and stun. Hero has two other nukes.
Whirl: Spell stops channelling and moves the target (and dodging it is extremely chancey anyway).
Dragonsouls: Spell stops channelling, moves the target, and is AOE.
Fujin's Breath/Frost Lance: Spell is AOE.
Rising Dragon: Spell. . . deals some damage to the target? Wow.
There is no compelling reason for RD to be dodgeable except by teledodging. In the end, it is just a blink strike, and the only hero-killing active the No Dachi has.
50% miss chance doesn't sound good to me, either. What was that about luck != skill? :P
Shadow Phoenix: Quote: And theres also the fact, as Lyncor said, the Dachi would have to wait for the best moment to use it, like just after your enemy has used their escape skill offensively, and also you must take into account that if a Dachi runs up next to you and casts RD, do you really think you could click on your skywalkers, turn and run out of the range in about 2, 2.5 seconds?
1) Against most heroes, No Dachi isn't going to be able to just 'run up next to you' unless you will it or arne't paying attention.
2) 2.5 seconds is longer than you think.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 12.02.2007, 10:09
Hmm... you do make a good point there.
So perhaps drop that clause and do all the rest?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 12.02.2007, 14:08
2.5 seconds actually shorter than you think cause everyone plays the map on fast, what would be 2.5 seconds is closer to just under 2 seconds, and when theres multiple heroes around, and if you're midcast of a spell or stunned, that time will pass quickly.
Again making it about skill, waiting for the best time to pounce so you get the hit. Ill just be happy with more airtime cause itll be cool :P
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 12.02.2007, 16:21
2.5 seconds is the length of FD's stun at lvl 4. It is a damn long time, full-stop.
I reiterate, though, that I'm totally in favour of the air-time increase. Just leave the additional methods of dodging out of it, please. If WoD/FD/whatever-dodging is good enough vs Teppo, Net and so on, it'll be good enough vs RD, too.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 13.02.2007, 01:22
Hmmm perhaps you're right.
But 2.5 seconds while you're standing there stunned is a lot longer than 2.5 seconds when you're doing a cool move and being active.
But that time of 2.5 seconds was taking into account the spin and going up into the air, the air time, and the coming back down and the wee explosion. At the same time this 2.5 seconds isnt what it should be, its just the number we've been using to describe it.
But antimagic and escape skills to escape it is good. Are you still keen for the damage reduction to it?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 13.02.2007, 14:00
Yes, I can definitely see it taking a modest hit to damage. It is a little strong for SL nukes atm.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 13.02.2007, 14:44
Earlier today in a game, a ND used RD on a Shinobi. He way of deathed, WAY away, in response - and it still hit, killing the Shinobi, despite the ND coming down where the Shinobi originally was. It not only looked really gimpy, but both players thought it was complete crap that it just hit anyway.
Any idea how to make WoD counter it?
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Anton - 14.02.2007, 00:58
would shortening the caste range of RD help? so its something very small. maybe the shin should be invincible whilst under ground if he is nt already (like with the ronins Flying Death)
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 14.02.2007, 01:35
Did the RD hit him after he came out of the ground or did the Dachi land where the Shinobi WAS before he WoD'ed and when the Shinobi popped outta the ground suddenly fell down?
If a hero uses an escape skill while Dachi is in the air targeting them it should cancel the Dachi's waypoint and either he just lands where the hero was when they initiated the skill or maybe even some cool animation like the Dachi loses conecntration and falls out of the air, but that would be hard to make work i think so maybe just the first one.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Lyncor - 14.02.2007, 03:48
Essentially, the Shinobi just came out of the ground and died. It was a "wtfilicious" moment, in which things not only seem unfair, they actually look unfair visually - the no dachi came down where the shinobi -was-, but still hit him with a sword from about 700 range away.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 14.02.2007, 11:13
Sounds like this should be reported as a bug.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Shadow Phoenix - 15.02.2007, 11:29
Ive only just noticed..
Your name tegeus, you have a capital "C" for Cromis but a lower case "t" for tegeus..
0_o ...
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
tegeus-Cromis - 15.02.2007, 12:12
Ahaha, yeah. It's the name of a character from some sf/f novel.
Re: Best 4v4 line up?
Forbidden - 15.02.2007, 21:37
Discussing No-Dachi's balance issues is important, but guys/gals, I just want to remind everyone that this topic was Best 4v4 line-up and this was the Strategy section. Maybe you could continue the issues with No-Dachis balance in another topic.
About the topic...what's best is - for me at least - a matter of opinion and I think that there is no single best 4v4 line-up. Another team line-up may be better at sieging and another better at herokilling. Better topic name might be "Your Favourite 4v4 line-up". Anyway that's what I think.
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