Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

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  • Qualität des Beitrags: 0 Sterne
  • Beteiligte Poster: Paul - Pathfinder - ssg keay - MUCKS
  • Forum: - Aero Part Identify Board -
  • aus dem Unterforum: Berichte über Flugzeugbergungen / Reports of aircraft recoveries
  • Antworten: 13
  • Forum gestartet am: Donnerstag 15.02.2007
  • Sprache: englisch
  • Link zum Originaltopic: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...
  • Letzte Antwort: vor 12 Jahren, 10 Monaten, 14 Tagen, 18 Stunden, 33 Minuten
  • Alle Beiträge und Antworten zu "Recovery Lancaster JBB221..."

    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    Paul - 30.03.2010, 14:04

    Recovery Lancaster JBB221...
    http://www.hr-online.de/website/fernsehen/sendungen/video_archiv5300.jsp?key=standard_document_38875987&jmpage=1&type=v&r=2&rubrik=5300&t=20100322&y=2010&jm=5&mediakey=fs/hessenschau/20100322_1930_grabungen_nach_bomber



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    Pathfinder - 31.03.2010, 01:09


    Hi all,

    thank you very much Paul for this link!
    I´m shocked about the method of excavation!! This is absolutely unprofessional and ragged!!

    I´m also shocked that here was searched for human remains of the crew member.


    Regards
    Nils



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    ssg keay - 26.04.2010, 14:00


    Nils, entschuldigung? Die Bergung war sehr gut unternommen worden und auch ausgefuehrt. Und warum bist du schockiert das dort fuer menschliche ueberreste gesucht wurde? Danny



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    Pathfinder - 26.04.2010, 15:25


    Hallo Danny,

    das was in dem Video zu sehen ist, ist beim besten Willen nicht als "Bergung" geschweige denn als "Grabung" zu bezeichnen.

    Meine Kritik bezieht sich nicht auf das Ziel, sondern auf die Art und Weise wie nach den Überresten der Besatzung gesucht wurde. Auf dem Video sind unzählige Personen zu sehen die, jeder für sich, laienhaft, planlos und unter absolut chaotischen und unkoordinierten Voraussetzungen, nach menschlichen Überresten der Besatzung suchen. Das was man in diesem Bericht sieht ist eher als "Goldgräberrausch" oder "Goldgräberstimmung" bezeichnen...

    Aus diesem Grund erhalten in Schleswig-Holstein weder Laien noch Privatpersonen eine Such- oder Grabungsgenehmigung. Dieser Filmbericht ist ein sehr gutes Beispiel für diese Begründung.

    Wie Anfangs zu erwähnt kritisiere ich nicht die Zielsetzung, sondern die Durchführung der "Bergung". Es ist von Laien nicht zu erwarten das diese über qualifizierte Kenntnisse verfügen um menschliche Überreste zu bergen. Diese Aufgabe muß durch Fachpersonal durchgeführt werden.

    An einer sach- und fachkundigen Ausgrabung und / oder Bergung sollten unter anderem folgende Voraussetzungen beachtet werden (entsprechende behördliche und zivilrechtliche Genehmigungen werden vorausgesetzt):


    1. Grabungsteam
    Bei dem Grabungsteam sollte es sich um Personen handeln die mit der Materie vertraut sind und entsprechende Sach- und Fachkenntnisse für das zu erwartende Fundgut vorweisen können. Das Grabungsteam untersteht der sach- und fachkundigen Führung und Anleitung eines Grabungsleiters.

    2. Grabungsfläche
    Befindet sich eine Grabungsfläche in einen Waldgebiet und läßt dieses den Einsatz von Großgerät (Bagger) nicht zu, muß die zu untersuchende Fläche zunächst räumlich eingegrenzt und markiert werden. Die Grabungsfläche ist dann mit leichtem Grabungsgerät (Handkelle und Schaufel) flächendeckend in mehreren Arbeitsschritten als Planum freizulegen. Die Lage der freigegten Fundstücke sind einzumessen, zu kennzeichnen und ggf. auf einem Grabungsplan einzuzeichnen.


    Das ist meine persönliche Meinung, begründet aus meiner langjährigen Durchführung der Luftfahrtarchäologie und meiner beruflichen Tätigkeit beim Archäologischen Landesamt.


    Gruß
    Nils



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    ssg keay - 27.04.2010, 15:37


    E-mail mir deine Nummer...hier im Forum lass ich mich nicht darueber aus. Danny
    aviation.archaeologist@gmail.com

    Und Nils, vergesse bitte nicht wer mehr Erfahrung hat.



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    Pathfinder - 27.04.2010, 17:07


    Danny,

    sehr bedauerlich das du dich zu der Kritik hier nicht äußern möchtest. Deine Meinung wäre für viele Mitglieder von Interesse.

    Wenn diese "Bergung" das Resultat deiner Erfahrung ist...



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    MUCKS - 29.04.2010, 22:44


    Hi Nils and Danny.
    Sorry I can not read or speak German,so cannot follow this thread.
    Paul maybe you can fill me in on whats it 's all about,the only thing I can gain is some group are digging a crash site on a Lancaster.??????????
    Regards.

    Martin



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    Pathfinder - 30.04.2010, 12:33


    I will try to translate or tell what´s going on on this thread;

    Danny is a US soldier and lives in germany. He has excavated some downed aircrafts in germany.

    I have criticised the procedure because of the kind of digging in the TV report, not the purpose. The kind of digging is absolutely not correct, because a lot of laypeople dig here very amateurish a lot of holes. You must know that here was searched for the remains of the killed crew member of this aircraft. The kind of excavation is a impertinence! Here is no system and no control what they doing. This is a job for professionals. It is absolutely not ok when a lot of peoples dig anywhere on the crash site and dont know what they do. What you can see on the report is shit!

    I work at the archaeological state office and I know how a crash site, with the remains of human relicts, must be excavated.
    It is no problem (when the leader know what he do and the excavating is perfect organized and authorised) that civil people dig a crashs site. But please not in this kind what the report show...

    Danny wrote in his last posting, I should give him my email address, because I will not to answer here my criticism. I has answer that is very regrettable that he will not answer here, because it is on interest for a lot of people and member.

    Danny had try some times to receive a permission to search and dig crash sites in our state Schleswig-Holstein (the north state of Germany), but our archaeological state office give him never a permission. Here we do this job self and make it professional.

    I have written in the posting how to search and dig for human remains. So the crash site must be uncovered schematically by hand, complete from one end to the other to built a flat surface (planum) a this in some intervals. It is absolutely shit when a lot of peoples dig a lot of holes on the crash site. It is a different to dig only the remains of a downed aircraft, or to dig a crash site with human relicts...


    Hope to wrote this in a plain english...

    Regards
    Nils



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    MUCKS - 01.05.2010, 00:54


    Hi Nils.
    Thankyou for your explanation,and just to say I totally agree with you.If there are human remains ,this site must be treated with the highest of respect.

    Best regards.

    Martin



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    ssg keay - 04.05.2010, 14:37


    Mucks, for your information. The families of three of the missing crew were present, as was German Graves registration etc. The dig was done professionally and with the supervision of folks who have conducted numerous and might I remind everyone successful recovery operations. The families and German VdK (Graves registration) were very impressed and the results though meager, were considered a success.
    Here are some issues to remember. Most of these digs are conducted over a long weekend, as did this dig. We all have day time jobs and do this on a volunteer basis out of our own pocket. I have worked Roman archaeological sites and have studied this field in college and still am working on that degree, though I have a bachelors in history, with focus on WW2 airwar. The team had two other gentlemen there who had recovered aircraft and missing crew before, so by no means inexperienced like Nils wants to make it sound.
    Nils, I believe you should not comment on hand of a video that shows people digging all over the place like you said. The site was searched and marked by our team and German EOD the day prior to the dig commencing. All signals that contained human remains or the area of the plane where the four men where sitting in, were marked for excavation. These sites were marked according to relevance and significance. Any site already determined to contain human remains were assigned one of the three team leaders. The other people that were according to Nils were digging everywhere, were in fact digging the outer perimiter and marking all finds by location to the cockpit area to develop a clear picture of events.
    Nils thinks because he now works as a hobby digger for the Archaeological Department in his state, that his methods are above reproach and the only ones that are valid. Nils, do you travel 300-400km to look for the dead? I do! Do you have the time to spend weeks on a site right around the corner from where you live? I don't! I am an active duty soldier that works his ass off to keep damn terrorists out and people safe. At the same time I have been involved in the recovery of four MIAs, prior to the brandau Lancaster, plus we reported six more MIAs to JPAC in Hawaii. Currently we are working a site in cooperation with the VdK holding the possible remains of 40 German soldiers.
    If you criticize my methods, then you must of course also ctiicize the VdK and men like Erwin Kowalke: http://www.welt.de/print-wams/article127857/Auf_der_Suche_nach_den_letzten_Opfern_des_Krieges.html or men like Julius Erasmus: http://www.welt.de/print-wams/article117323/Aus_Respekt_vor_den_Toten.html or all the other men that recover MIAs for the VdK, or these guys that recover Germans and Russians alike: http://www.vbgo.de/index.php?cccpage=schicksale&set_z_schicksal=1 Or how about JPAC? Are they all amateurs like me and not a seasoned professional like you Nils?
    Recovering MIAs (missing personnel) does not require a GPS or cataloging every single part. You have to use knowledge of the wreck, combined with a clue what has happened to the plane and crew. The families don't care that part x was found at location xyz. They care that the remains are recovered expediently and with the utmost respect.
    We held a memorial service the day prior to the dig and we allowed the families not only to be present, but to actively assist and support. For the families this was a climactic experience.
    If you need me to Nils, I will translate this all into German and post it that way too.
    Thanks, Danny
    Mucks and anyone else that feels concerned, i will gladly post a message from the families here and I can ask the VdK for an evaluation of the dig. I believe archaeologists have limited use at a crash site. They are not trained or knowledgable about aircraft wrecks and human forensics.



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    Pathfinder - 04.05.2010, 18:05


    Thans for your comment Danny.

    At first, I not works as a "hobby digger" for the Archaeological Department in my state, I works here since three years at the Archaeological Department ;)
    My hobby is to locate the crash sites and try to clear the fates of the crew member. The excavations I do with the Archaeological Department.

    I have only criticised how you dig for human remains. That what I can see on the report is not correct. And this has nothing to do with your purpose to clear some fates. Our purpose is the same.

    When you study the history of WW2 you not learn how to excavate a archaelogical location, certainly not human remains - I have learned this and do this since three years.

    I know the problem to locate and clear the fates and I have the same problem to pay all the costs from my own pocket. Sadly nobody, no organisation or departement will and can help and support with money...

    At last, I think you should try to visit a archaeological excavating to see and learn how to dig correctly to human remains. The killed crew member lie not in a grave or hole in the ground, their remains are scattered on the crash site. To find all of this remains you must search under archaeological requirements and aspects.

    Regards
    Nils



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    MUCKS - 05.05.2010, 23:38


    Hi Nils and Danny.
    I thank you both for your time in responce to my email on this thread ,and to both of you to explain to me the way a dig should be carried out to recover possible human remains.
    I will make no comment as this is not in my domaine,but thank you both once again.
    My very best regards to you both.

    Martin



    Re: Recovery Lancaster JBB221...

    ssg keay - 13.05.2010, 10:46


    Nils, ok.....I have learned the archaeological way. I worked Roman sites for the Landesmuseum Koeln/Bonn. When looking for MIAs in this type scenario, we dig the main sites that could contain remains first, i.e. cockpit as all four MIAs were in a 2 meter radius from there. You see several teams digging the main impact area of the cockpit and fuselage. All the dirt was screened (Schuettelsiebe) which guarantees any bones/remains will be found. On the outer perimiter we had THW and other volunteers mark and dig signals, while our experts determined where the parts uncovered sat on the plane. This weekend we will hopefully finalize the site and be able to turn over all remains to the CWGC. We will never find all the remains. A lot were burried in a collective grave and since have been burried in Duernbach under the name of Aley. Wartime records state clearly that a box was found with chunks of human remains. In the box was Aley's dog tag and thus remains were burried as Aley, though the report cleary states that there remains from more then one person in the box. Also, we know for a fact that animals have over the last 60 years taken their toll on remains. We had an eye-witness tell us his labrador a few years back came out of the woods with a human bone, which the dog had unearthed. We are not trying to find four skeletons, we are looking for enough to satisfy British requirments for an identification and burial in Durnbach and for the families to know that everything possible has been done to show their loved ones the respect and effort they deserve.
    Nils, I am sorry if I sounded pissed off, which I was. I have known you long enough to know you have a good heart and I was dissapointed that you judged this recovery without #1, being there yourself, #2 talking to me prior to your negative reply to Paul, who by the way is a good friend of ours.
    Mucks, thanks for remaining neutral and your comments reflect your professional attitude.

    Danny



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