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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: tegeus-Cromis - Galefury - Vladhslavh - IMassAcolyte - nooK - Anonymous Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Ideas Antworten: 29 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Hero: Yojimbo Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 9 Monaten, 10 Tagen, 4 Stunden, 17 Minuten
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Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 12:19Hero: Yojimbo
Yojimbo
Edit 1: Now with no lightning!
Edit 2: Now with a teleporting ulti!
Role: Support, damage-dealer
Attack range: 175
Damage: 42 - 49 (80 - 87 at level 20)
HP: 525 (1350 at level 20)
MP: 255 (750 at level 20)
Move speed: Average
Strength: 17 +1.74 per level (50 at level 20)
Agility (Primary Attribute): 17 + 2 per level (55 at level 20)
Intelligence: 17 +1.74 per level (50 at level 20)
Skill 1: Soul Spark
Type: Building block skill, active self-buff
The Yojimbo draws out his inner strength and gives it physical form. Creates a Soul Spark that grants 4 bonus movement speed and 12% bonus attack speed. Soul Sparks last until used up by other spells. Cooldown decreases with level.
Can be auto-casted.
'I give as I will and I take as I will. I slash the leopard with my teeth; my spirit smashes mountains.'
Level 1 - 1 maximum.
Level 2 - 2 maximum.
Level 3 - 3 maximum.
Level 4 - 4 maximum.
Level 5 - 5 maximum.
[Notes: Okay, so I left 'Soul Spark' in, as it sounds quite fitting and does not, I think, impinge too much on the lightning-based caster you have in mind. Anyhoo: the bonus maxes out at +60% attack speed and 20 movespeed. This is not a whole lot considering that his starting and final agility values are simply pathetic, as bad as a strength hero's. On the other hand, it does out-do Ronin's Death poem in every way except for requiring mana. This is actually very reasonable--Soul Spark isn't imba, it's Death Poem that's a terrible skill and needs a huge buff.
Can be auto-cast, but will never have 0 cooldown at any level; perhaps 2 seconds at level 5. Will use the Orb of Lightning animation or something similar, as originally stated. No casting animation.]
Skill 2: Line of Division
Type: Active, ground-targetting move speed buff/slow
The Yojimbo empowers his sword with a single Soul Spark, then projects this energy out in a line, helping his allies out of danger and crippling his foes. All allied units touched by the line will gain a movespeed bonus, while all enemy units touched will be slowed. One Soul Spark will be consumed upon casting.
Level 1 - 8% bonus, 9% slow.
Level 2 - 10% bonus, 12% slow.
Level 3 - 12% bonus, 15% slow.
Level 4 - 14% bonus, 18% slow.
Level 5 - 16% bonus, 21% slow.
[Notes: Hopefully this does not seem like a filler ability, nooK? :wink: Good for rescue and good for chasing. A 37% MS gain over your opponent, with no damage, may seem like a raw deal for 5 stat points, but remember it is an AOE buff/slow (though you may have difficulty making full use of the AOE, due to it being a line). Also, a combined speed boost and slow is always more useful than a similar percentage pure slow or pure speed boost, as anyone who has used Grave Chill or Spectral Dagger will tell you. Oh, and since the Yojimbo is casting the ability, he will naturally be one of the units touched by the line. Will use the Spell animation.]
Skill 3: Path of Duty
Type: Active, ally-targetting rescue/escape/ganking skill
Conscious of the terms of his contract, the Yojimbo throws himself between an ally and the enemy, harnessing the energies created by his Soul Spark technique to travel a great distance in a single jump. Must be cast on an ally. One Soul Spark will be consumed upon casting.
Level 1 - 620 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 0.5 seconds.
Level 2 - 740 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 1 second.
Level 3 - 860 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 1.5 seconds.
Level 4 - 980 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 2 seconds.
Level 5 - 1100 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 2.5 seconds.
[Notes: Will move the hero to the position of the target, then basically cast a weak version of Berserker's Call (explanation for nooK, who does not play DotA: that means that for the duration, affected units will be ordered to attack the Yojimbo many many times per second, so that they cannot do anything else till the time is up). 'An ally' can be either a creep or a hero; nevertheless not a reliable chasing skill by design. Will use the Spell Slam animation.]
Ultimate: Omnipresence
Type: Active, ground-targetting teleport/area stun
'I was hired to protect a lord, but these towers are his eyes, and those soldiers, his fists. If the body of my lord is everywhere, what choice have I but to be everywhere, too?'
Teleports the Yojimbo to any area of the map that you have sight of, dealing damage to nearby enemies and stunning them for 2 seconds. 1 second casting delay. Two Soul Sparks will be consumed upon casting.
Level 1 - 150 damage 60 second cooldown.
Level 2 - 175 damage, 50 second cooldown.
Level 3 - 200 damage, 40 second cooldown.
Level 4 - 225 damage, 30 second cooldown.
Level 5 - 250 damage, 20 second cooldown.
[Notes: There, your almost-global teleport ulti. :P Okay, so it is still a damage ulti, but 1) that is not the main thing about it and 2) it's a damage ulti with a difference. ;) Anyway: during the one second delay, the Pillar of Fire charge-up animation will show on the point you target as well as the point you are currently standing on, so there will be some warning. If it still seems a bit powerful, remember that the Yojimbo is quite poorly-equipped to kill heroes by himself. Will use the Attack Slam animation, half on your start point (the jumping in the air bit) and half at the destination (the landing bit), at which point the stomp animation will go off.]
-
Quote: Removed Skill 2: Empowering Thunder
Type: Active area buff
Years spent as a bodyguard have taught the Yojimbo to use his Soul Sparks to aid his employers in escaping their enemies. Any Soul Sparks in effect will rotate rapidly around the hero, giving their bonuses to allies within a 450 radius and increasing the Yojimbo's move speed by 15 and attack speed by 25%. One Soul Spark will be consumed at the end of the spell's duration.
Level 1 - 4 second duration.
Level 2 - 8 second duration.
Level 3 - 12 second duration.
Level 4 - 16 second duration.
Level 5 - 20 second duration.
[Notes: The Yojimbo does not have to stick around for his allies to retain the bonus; once given, it stays until the duration is up. Will use the Lightning Shield animation. No casting animation.]
Quote: Removed Ultimate: Blade of the Heavens
Type: Active single-target/area nuke
As a hired sword, the Yojimbo expends only as much energy as is required to finish the job. When needed, however, he is able to unleash all his stored power in a single devastating attack. After a short delay, deals a large amount of damage to the target and shockwave damage to all enemies in a line. All Soul Sparks will be consumed once the spell has finished casting.
'My sword leans against the sky.
With its polished blade I'll behead
The Buddha and all of his saints.
Let the lightning strike where it will.'
Level 1 - 150 target damage, 20 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 2 - 200 target damage, 30 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 3 - 250 target damage, 40 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 4 - 300 target damage, 50 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 5 - 350 target damage, 60 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
[Notes: Casting range equal to the Yojimbo's normal attack range. Basically, the Yojimbo will disable the target for, say, 0.5 seconds--I reiterate, the target will be invulnerable during this short period, but the Yojimbo will not--while showing the Spell animation, then deal it a single attack while casting a modified Shockwave on it (minus the projectile; in other words, just the ground ripple effect). The primary target will also take the Shockwave damage, of course, which I guess would entail having the Shockwave start from somewhere behind the Yojimbo. Will use the Spell animation followed by the Attack Slam animation.]
-
Flavour text, revised flavour text and replacement icons to come.
This hero owes a lot to Kouenzan's idea, for which many thanks.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 12:31Re: Hero: Yojimbo
From the other thread:
Galefury wrote: The ultimate is a lot like Ronin's ulti, though, being an unavoidable stunning single target nuke. Ronin's has longer disabling and lower damage, though, and the added aoe damage make it different enough I think.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: The stun is actually very short, as is the channelling period. It's just there so the primary target cannot cancel your channelling before you cast the spell, while allowing his teammates to do so. If there was no channelling period, the spell would be too easy to use; if there was no primary target stun to go with it, it would be too difficult without an anti-magic pot.
Galefury wrote: Well, Ronin's ulti also has just 2s stun, during the rest of the spell the enemy is invunerable. And a channel shorter than 2s would make it extremely hard to disable the hero before striking. Channeling shouldn't be less than 1.5s for the ulti I think. 1.5 would be quite hard to cancel with reaction time of .5s and 1s left for casting and hitting with the stun. Pretty much only Ninja Ensnare and item silence with hotkey would be suitable I think, the other stuff takes too long to cast. It's an ultimate, though, so the channeling shouldn't be too long.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Good points. 1.75 seconds is about right, I think, with some suitably flashy 'power-up' type effect to announce to the enemy, 'I am about to pwn your ass, you'd better disable me quick.'
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Vladhslavh - 06.06.2006, 17:13
i said that before in the Ikazuchi topic, but well... lets say it again in the right topic at this time^^
IMO Human Shield can be renamed to sense of the duty...
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 19:22
Or it could just be named Human Shield, thanks. :?
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 19:28
Sense of Duty > Human Shield.
OK, it's only duty by contract, but still, Human Shield sounds weird.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 19:39
Okay, okay. Path of Duty. How about that?
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
IMassAcolyte - 06.06.2006, 21:08
Great hero. Over all the balance is great. A body guard would make a GREAT addition to the map.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Vladhslavh - 07.06.2006, 14:20
path of duty is fine.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 19:42
Thanks, Mass. :) Glad you like it.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
nooK - 09.06.2006, 12:29
Quote: Skill 1: Soul Spark
Type: Building block skill, active self-buff
The Yojimbo draws out his inner strength and gives it physical form. Creates a Soul Spark that grants 4 bonus movement speed and 6% bonus attack speed. Soul Sparks last until used up by other spells. Cooldown decreases with level.
Can be auto-casted.
'I give as I will and I take as I will. I slash the leopard with my teeth; my spirit smashes mountains.'
Level 1 - 1 maximum.
Level 2 - 2 maximum.
Level 3 - 3 maximum.
Level 4 - 4 maximum.
Level 5 - 5 maximum.
[Notes: The bonus maxes out at +30% attack speed and 20 movespeed. This is not a whole lot, which is intentional because 1) once cast it is basically a passive, and so should not be too good and 2) skill 2 will apply this bonus to allies in an AOE, so the figure must be enough to have a significant effect on creeps but not be too powerful on allied heroes. Can be auto-cast, but will never have 0 cooldown at any level; perhaps 2 seconds at level 5. Will use the Orb of Lightning animation or something similar, as originally stated. No casting animation.]
Great as basis for this hero.
Quote: Skill 2: Empowering Thunder
Type: Active area buff
Years spent as a bodyguard have taught the Yojimbo to use his Soul Sparks to aid his employers in escaping their enemies. Any Soul Sparks in effect will rotate rapidly around the hero, giving their bonuses to allies within a 450 radius and increasing the Yojimbo's move speed by 15 and attack speed by 25%. One Soul Spark will be consumed at the end of the spell's duration.
Level 1 - 4 second duration.
Level 2 - 8 second duration.
Level 3 - 12 second duration.
Level 4 - 16 second duration.
Level 5 - 20 second duration.
[Notes: The Yojimbo does not have to stick around for his allies to retain the bonus; once given, it stays until the duration is up. Will use the Lightning Shield animation. No casting animation.]
Don`t find this one so great, seems like a filler ability.
Quote: Skill 3: Path of Duty
Type: Active, ally-targetting rescue/escape/ganking skill
Conscious of the terms of his contract, the Yojimbo throws himself between an ally and the enemy, harnessing the energies created by his Soul Spark technique to travel a great distance in a single jump. Must be cast on an ally. One Soul Spark will be consumed upon casting.
Level 1 - 620 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 0.5 seconds.
Level 2 - 740 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 1 second.
Level 3 - 860 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 1.5 seconds.
Level 4 - 980 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 2 seconds.
Level 5 - 1100 cast range. Enemies within a 250 radius will be forced to attack the hero for 2.5 seconds.
[Notes: Will move the hero to the position of the target, then basically cast a weak version of Berserker's Call. 'An ally' can be either a creep or a hero; nevertheless not a reliable chasing skill by design. Will use the Spell Slam animation.]
Great skill, this is what makes this hero :)
Imagince how cool it could be to save an nearly dead ally, by giving him the one or two seconds more he needs to escape. Very good skill!
Quote: Ultimate: Blade of the Heavens
Type: Active single-target/area nuke
As a hired sword, the Yojimbo expends only as much energy as is required to finish the job. When needed, however, he is able to unleash all his stored power in a single devastating attack. When used, channels for a short time, stunning the primary target, then deals a large amount of damage to the target and lightning damage to all enemies in a cone. All Soul Sparks will be consumed once the spell has finished casting.
'My sword leans against the sky.
With its polished blade I'll behead
The Buddha and all of his saints.
Let the lightning strike where it will.'
Level 1 - 200 target damage, 20 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 2 - 250 target damage, 30 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 3 - 300 target damage, 40 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 4 - 350 target damage, 50 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
Level 5 - 400 target damage, 60 lightning damage per Soul Spark.
[Notes: Casting range equal to the Yojimbo's normal attack range. Basically, the Yojimbo will disable the target while channelling, then deal it a single attack while casting a modified Forked Lightning on it. The primary target will also take the lightning damage, of course. Will use the spell animation followed by the attack slam animation.]
Way too imba, stuns the target then deals 700 damage (target could be already attacked by allies during the stun too)? Even if he survives his teammates can`t save him because they are at low hp too.
Overall a very good hero again, cool bodyguard theme, I love his second skill.
But it would be better if you remove the "lightning parts" of his theme and make them "soul" or anything else, because there will be an caster hero which is all thunder/lightning theme.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 09.06.2006, 13:44
All good points. Will revise accordingly.
Please note, though, that the target would be invulnerable during the stun (sorry for not mentioning that). It's mostly for looks, and to give the target's teammates time to interrupt the ability before it can go off.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Anonymous - 10.06.2006, 15:53
Yup, as many others say too, a good hero. Maybe it's just me, but I have to check. About the stuff it says about beheading buddha, in the Heavenly sword skill, were Japanese that familiar with Chinese Buddhism? Sure they were neighbours and did trade but were they that familiar with Chinese religion? Just checking, probably nothing. Nice hero again.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 10.06.2006, 16:45
Buddhism was huge in Japan, actually. That poem (like almost all the flavour text I've used) is an actual poem (a death poem, incidentally) by a Japanese Zen monk.
Glad you like it. :)
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 11.06.2006, 21:04
So nooK, what do you think of the revision? IMHO the ulti is not imba. Compare:
Blade of the Heavens (or whatever name it will have; I am still thinking):
650 damage to one enemy
300 damage to all enemies in the area around the primary target
Dragon Souls:
500 damage to all enemies in an area
They seem almost equal to me. Remember also that the Yojimbo has no nuke; if you factor in the Teppo that the Warlord can throw in instantaneously, you will see that the Warlord is still superior for instant damage, and he does not have to spend time and mana pumping up his nukes. I am half-convinced that even the 50 primary target damage nerf I did in the last edit may be too much.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
nooK - 14.06.2006, 01:07
I don´t think he should have an damaging ultimate.
Currently nearly all heroes have a damage ultimate:
Ninja - Flying Daggers
Yumi - Rain of Arrows
Ronin - Kaze
Warlord - Dragon Souls
+ Onmyoji - Fujin´s Breath (next version)
My suggestion is to give him just an all over the map teleport, so he can quickly join in for pushes or defend expos. Of course he then needs an nuke as a normal ability.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 14.06.2006, 02:10
Please no all over the map teleport. It could work with this hero without being too imba I guess, but something else would be better I think.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 14.06.2006, 09:59
What if I took away the AOE aspect of his ulti? Then he would be the only hero with a point damage ulti. :wink:
Actually then he would just play like an agility Axe from DotA, so I guess not. -_-
Hm, if he's going to get a global TP, he probably should be restricted to TPing to friendly units, not just any explored terrain. In which case it will need another effect to merit being an ulti. I will think of something. :)
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 14.06.2006, 10:41
Eh, TP to friendly units is good enough for an ulti. See a good Warden in action in ToB. It will make you cry, at least if you are on the opposing team. Warden's skills work much better with instant TP to friendly units than Yojimbo's (she has Blink with 1s cooldown at level 18, 250 damage Shadowstrike with slow and some damage over time, and Blade Barrier, which is an immolation type skill that also gives magic immunity for the duration. She's pretty much the ultimate chaser and can kill workers and other mercs very easily), but it would still be a very powerful ultimate. Remember that such a skill isn't available from items in SL.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 14.06.2006, 14:43
Uh, Scroll of Teleportation? :P
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 01:37
Changed the ulti. I have to emphasise that the hero will probably not have much luck killing anyone by himself, and that the attack he does upon teleporting is dodgeable due to the animation that shows before he TPs through (1 second may not seem like much, but it is roughly how much warning you get with Flying Death).
Tell me what you think of it.
(On another note, his stats may need tweaking after all this skill substitution. I will think about it.)
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 15.06.2006, 01:55
Well, instant extremely long range movement is extremely powerful, especially with the stun and damage. But since hes available to both teams it's OK I guess...
It gives him extreme sieging power in mid and endgame. A poorly guarded expansion that suddenly has to deal with an additional hero is pretty much doomed.
At least the short cooldown is kind of countered by the 2 SS cost.
I guess we will see how it works out.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 02:37
Quote: Well, instant extremely long range movement is extremely powerful, especially with the stun and damage. But since hes available to both teams it's OK I guess...
Eh, it would be bad for him to be an obligatory pick just because of that.
Quote: It gives him extreme sieging power in mid and endgame. A poorly guarded expansion that suddenly has to deal with an additional hero is pretty much doomed.
Dude, anyone can buy a Scroll of Teleportation and present exactly the same problem. :P
Quote: At least the short cooldown is kind of countered by the 2 SS cost.
That's the idea.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
nooK - 15.06.2006, 02:42
Well done, I really like the new ultimate, it fits the bodyguard theme very well. And I don´t think it´s imba the damage is quite low (which is good) and there is a warning. Allows great teamwork :)
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 03:02
Cool. :) I'm glad to hear I have not been cutting him up in vain. :P One thing I like about the ulti is that there is a slight chance that you could use it to finish off an opponent who thinks he has got away. Very unlikely and quite unimportant, but can you imagine how awesome it will be when you manage to pull it off?
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 15.06.2006, 11:55
It's not that unlikely if there are some differences in terrain hight are added. But I guess it depends on the aoe. Also Scroll of Teleportation = 1 teleport. Bought at base. So usually people will carry it around mostly for saving themselves from certain death or for getting into battle quickly after death.
The ulti = 1 Teleport every 20s. Which basically means that wherever 1 hero is, there can be 2 a second later, pretty much always. Also 1s delay isn't that much, which means he isn't unkillable, but extremely hard to kill. I think you have no idea how powerful such a skill is. But well, maybe it won't be too imba with this hero, as I said.
And it would make him a forced pick, I'm pretty sure.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 17:11
Quote: It's not that unlikely if there are some differences in terrain hight are added. But I guess it depends on the aoe.
AOE like Ronin's. It would be difficult because of the charge-up animation of doom that tells enemies 'I am going to TP here; step in the circle if you wish to die.'
Quote: Also Scroll of Teleportation = 1 teleport. Bought at base. So usually people will carry it around mostly for saving themselves from certain death or for getting into battle quickly after death.
Personally, I don't think I've ever bought a TP scroll for this purpose. I only use it to save a rax/tower or to join a push.
Quote: The ulti = 1 Teleport every 20s. Which basically means that wherever 1 hero is, there can be 2 a second later, pretty much always.
That's a good point. I think perhaps I should keep the cooldown at level 5 high and abandon the cool but impractical notion of using Omnipresence as a finisher. :P If the cooldown were 40 seconds, I do not think this would be such a problem. What's your opinion?
Quote: Also 1s delay isn't that much, which means he isn't unkillable, but extremely hard to kill.
No harder than a Ninja (3 instant escape mechanisms ffs) or Shinobi (800 range impaling blink).
Quote: I think you have no idea how powerful such a skill is.
I may not have played ToB, but it is not like I have never seen a good Furion or Spectre before. I know it can get out of hand; I also know it can be balanced.
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
Galefury - 15.06.2006, 20:12
40s would be OK I guess, keeping the damage and stun wouldn't be much of a problem then either. With 20s it could just be used as a regular stun when the enemy cant run away (or even when he can, it's not like Flying Death doesn't have a warning time...). With 40s you would probably think twice about using the ulti just for that secondary effect.
Warden's instant movement (to friendly units) has 15s cooldown and she has 1s cooldown Blink. Quite a bit more extreme mobility I think. Her ulti was going to be replaced in the next version, but that will unfortunately never happen. :(
Also I don't think he would be easier to kill than Shinobi. With Shinobi you can at least Blink after him or catch him with Skywalkers. And stunning someone out of a 1s cast time is generally just luck. Not sure if it should be increased, though. We will see it it when/if the hero is implemented I guess. *g*
BTW no point in overanalysing this post, I'm not attacking you or something. That I split my posts into paragraphs is not an invitation to quote each one. ;)
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 20:34
It was actually my intention that you could use it as an expensive normal stun, but then you pointed out that a 20 second cooldown lets you be any place, any time. So sadly it's potential as a normal stun will have to be sacrificed, I think.
Yes, I did have a look at ToB Warden in singleplayer, and it did seem quite extreme.
I suppose you could catch Shinobi with Latona/Skywalker, but you must consider the quite short cooldown of Way of Death and its high penetration into impassible areas, which you cannot duplicate with Latona blink.
I know you're not attacking me; it just seems natural to me to to reply to everything point by point, with quotes. I have managed to avoid quoting this time, as you can see. :P
Re: Hero: Yojimbo
tegeus-Cromis - 10.07.2006, 01:09
Edited to give Soul Spark a major attack speed buff; this is because I removed the other skill that would amplify the effects of Soul Spark.
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