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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Metal Sonic - Anonymous - Kouenzan - nooK - Galefury - tegeus-Cromis - IMassAcolyte - Vladhslavh Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Ideas Antworten: 39 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu) Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 5 Monaten, 14 Tagen, 5 Stunden, 21 Minuten
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Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 05.06.2006, 02:09Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Shikaku (Assasin)
Role: Glass Cannon/Disruption
Starting HP: 325
Starting MP: 450
Movespeed: 310
Damage: Low-medium
Stats: 26 Agility (2.25 pl), 16 strength (1.25 pl), 15 intelligence (1.75 pl)
The master of slowing! She's a quick disruption hero with fairly mana-heavy abilities that relies on disabling enemies and heaving damaging to get the job done.
NOTE- All units hit by any of the 3 basic spells will be buffed with the "Satetsu", which has no direct effects and expires after 30 seconds/ 10 on heroes.
2 different skills here, take your pick.
Option One:
Sunaarashi (sandstorm)
Nuke/Summon-ish
Channeling
Creates a slow-moving uncontrollable sandstorm that slows enemies in the AoE, reduces their vision by half and deals damage per second.
Level 1- Mana cost 100, 10 dps, 20% slow, lasts 8 seconds
Level 2- Mana cost 115, 15 dps, 20% slow, lasts 10 seconds
Level 3- Mana cost 130, 20 dps, 20% slow, lasts 12 seconds
Level 4- Mana cost 145, 25 dps, 20% slow, lasts 14 seconds
Level 5- Mana cost 160, 30 dps, 20% slow, lasts 16 seconds
The super-nuke! Pretty mana heavy as it progresses, and probably horribly imbalanced, but I like it. It's very much a disabler with the slow and the vision impairing. Cooldown negotiable.
Option Two:
Didn't feel like putting in skill form right now, sorry :P
Activatable brilliance aura with low range. Boosts mana regen by 60-100-130-170-200% but reduces movespeed by 30-30-25-25-20%. AOE should be small and constant, about half as big as fountain of healing range. That way it is primarily used to recover her mana when there is no need to move around much, and allies can also use her as a kind of mana battery if they go close enough. Having more mana and one less active skill to spend it on will allow her to use her two other spells more frequently and reduce the need for item whoring a bit.
Quicksand
Disrupter
Creates a quicksand patch at target location, sucking in all nearby units for a short amount of time. (Is escapable)
Level 1- Mana cost 60, 30% slow, lasts 5 seconds, 20 sec. cooldown
Level 2- Mana cost 60, small patch, lasts 8 seconds, 17 sec. cooldown
Level 3- Mana cost 60, 40% slow , lasts 11 seconds, 14 sec. cooldown
Level 4- Mana cost 60, 50% slow, lasts 14 seconds, 11 sec. cooldown
Level 5- Mana cost 60, 60% slow , lasts 17 seconds, 8 sec. cooldown
Combo along with Sandstorm allows for some heavy damaging and slowing. Perfect for maknig a quick escape too. Now more spammable!
Aka Akki (Dirt Devil)
Delayed Line Damage
I think I'll keep this the same for now, it's balanced enough for me.
The Satetsu Odoriko blinks to a target point, leaving a sand cloud behind, which dissapears after X seconds, creating a blast of sand in the direction of the blink.
Level 1- 125 damage, Mana cost 80, 2.5 second delay, 15 second cooldown
Level 2- 150 damage, Mana cost 80, 2 second delay, 15 second cooldown
Level 3- 175 damage, Mana cost 100, 1.5 second delay, 12 second cooldown
Level 4- 200 damage, Mana cost 100, 1 second delay, 12 second cooldown
Level 5- 225 damage, Mana cost 135, 0.5 second delay, 9 second cooldown
I realise there's a bit of a spike at the last level, but by now you should be getting some good regeneration, and I don't want it too spammable. I think this ability is fairly nice, just blink through a line of enemies, run away and watch the damage. =)
Ultimate: Sands of Time
Delayed Damage
Creates a Sand Timer at target location which counts down from 10 seconds, heavily damaging all units with the Satetsu buff. Mana cost is 150 on all levels.
Level 1- 150 damage, 650 AOE. Max 2 timers
Level 2- 150 damage, 750 AOE. Max 2 timers
Level 3- 175 damage, 750 AOE. Max 3 timers
Level 4- 175 damage, 850 AOE. Max 3 timers
Level 5- 200 damage, 850 AOE. Max 4 timers
Deals 600 to all units affected with the Satetsu buff.
Updated! Now, unlike nearly all other ultimates, it isn't a super-powerful long-cooldown spell, but an easily spammable spell that works with all your other abilities. It's very unique in that aspect I think, and much more balanced now. Thanks Tegeus!
This is actually the first hero I've ever designed, I'm sure it's horribly unbalanced, but if it made it into SL my dream would come true. =)
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Anonymous - 05.06.2006, 09:02
you're right, it's too imbalance! :P try to reduce the duration and increase some cooldown
but the theme, sandy sandy great! (what black_stan model are you going to use??)
Sunaarashi = instead of 10/15sec etc. make it 8/10/12/14/16 (the level 5 can make a 900 whoooping dmage :P)
Hayaisando = the duration is horrible :P uhh at least make it 10/13/16/19/21 the cooldown is ok
Aka Akki = it's fine, not imba :P
Sands of Time = duration too high and cooldown also. :P
overall, its imba (as you said) but the concept and synergies are great. imagine, lots of elite archer with this hero! hahaha so fun to play!
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Kouenzan - 05.06.2006, 09:06
oh man i forgot to log-in! :D
the guy above me, that's me :P
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 05.06.2006, 12:46
Yay, someone lieks her! :P
I'm modifying Black_Stan's Kunoichi model with different weapon, animations (Warden, has everything I need, blink animation, channel, spell) and a new skin.
I'll update the hero after school to be more user friendly (I'll bold abilties and stuff), and add icons for the hero, and my a picture of the model, along with your suggestions. Thanks!
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 05.06.2006, 21:03
Ok, it's been updated, I'd appreciate some comments and perhaps icon suggestions (I'll probably make my own or modify them). Tell me if the stats are getting better too.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
nooK - 06.06.2006, 00:26
Ok here we go.
Quote: Sunaarashi (sandstorm)
Nuke/Summon-ish
Channeling(?)
Creates a slow-moving uncontrollable sandstorm that slows enemies in the AoE, reduces their vision by half and deals damage per second.
Level 1- Mana cost 100, 10 dps, 20% slow, lasts 8 seconds
Level 2- Mana cost 125, 15 dps, 20% slow, lasts 10 seconds
Level 3- Mana cost 150, 20 dps, 20% slow, lasts 12 seconds
Level 4- Mana cost 175, 25 dps, 20% slow, lasts 14 seconds
Level 5- Mana cost 200, 30 dps, 20% slow, lasts 16 seconds
The super-nuke! Pretty mana heavy as it progresses, and probably horribly imbalanced, but I like it. It's very much a disabler with the slow and the vision impairing. Cooldown negotiable.
Strange ability, 30 damage per second isn´t very much and won´t hurt hard, in contrast a vision reducing spell as a normal ability is kind of hard for the enemy heroes -> half of the game only half vision...
Hayaisando (Quicksand, couldn't find exact word so I combined quick and sand )
Disrupter
Quote: Creates a quicksand patch at target location, sucking in all nearby units for a short amount of time. (Is escapable)
Level 1- Mana cost 60, small patch, lasts 10 seconds, 20 sec. cooldown
Level 2- Mana cost 60, small patch, lasts 13 seconds, 25 sec. cooldown
Level 3- Mana cost 60, medium patch, lasts 16 seconds, 30 sec. cooldown
Level 4- Mana cost 60, medium patch, lasts 19 seconds, 35 sec. cooldown
Level 5- Mana cost 60, large patch, lasts 22 seconds, 40 sec. cooldown
Combo along with Sandstorm allows for some heavy damaging and slowing. Perfect for maknig a quick escape too.
Good idea, I like it.
Quote: Aka Akki (Dirt Devil)
Delayed Line Damage
The Satetsu Odoriko blinks to a target point, leaving a sand cloud behind, which dissapears after X seconds, creating a blast of sand in the direction of the blink, dealing 175 damage.
Level 1- Mana cost 80, 2.5 second delay, 15 second cooldown
Level 2- Mana cost 80, 2 second delay, 15 second cooldown
Level 3- Mana cost 100, 1.5 second delay, 12 second cooldown
Level 4- Mana cost 100, 1 second delay, 12 second cooldown
Level 5- Mana cost 135, 0.5 second delay, 9 second cooldown
I realise there's a bit of a spike at the last level, but by now you should be getting some good regeneration, and I don't want it too spammable. I think this ability is fairly nice, just blink through a line of enemies, run away and watch the damage. =)
Would need some stats tweaking, for example the dealy should be static I think. Else it`s a good ability.
Quote: Ultimate: Sands of Time
Delayed Damage
Creates a Sand Timer at target location which counts down from X seconds, heavily damaging all units with the Satetsu buff.
Level 1- Mana cost 300, lasts 2 minutes, 2.5 minute cooldown
Level 2- Mana cost 300, lasts 1.75 minutes, 2.25 minute cooldown
Level 3- Mana cost 300, lasts 1.5 minutes, 2 minute cooldown
Level 4- Mana cost 300, lasts 1.25 minutes, 1.75 minute cooldown
Level 5- Mana cost 300, lasts 1 minute, 1.5 minute cooldown
Deals 800 to all units affected with the Satetsu buff.
Nice idea with the Satetsu buff, I really like it, but the ability works strange. It lats 2-1 minutes? So you have to cast it at a certain point and then 2-1 minutes after casting your enemies should be still around there?
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 01:24
The spells are all quite good cool by themselves. Could be made to look really great and and would probably work well ingame. But the synergy is just way too powerful. 2 area slows, 2 mass nukes, an ulti to deal even more damage (would be kinda hard to use though) and Blink for great mobility on top of that? Ouch...
And yes, I know she's fragile and has low mana compared to her spells. That can be quite easily fixed with items, though. Nine Headed Dragon (that lifedrain and strength boost sword) and 2 or 3 mana boosters, perfect. Maybe even Latona (or it's replacement) for doubleblink and ultimate mobility (and thus immortality unless properly permastunned in the hands of a good player).
Either the numbers on the spells would need to be nerfed beyond recognition, which would suck, or you would have to replace a skill. Probably the Sandstorm, because it has slow and damage in a nice package, removing both problems at once if replaced.
I'll comment on the single skills now, assuming the following replacement for sandstorm:
Cant come up with a name: Activatable brilliance aura with low range. Boosts mana regen by 60-100-130-170-200% but reduces movespeed by 30-30-25-25-20%. AOE should be small and constant, about half as big as fountain of healing range. That way it is primarily used to recover her mana when there is no need to move around much, and allies can also use her as a kind of mana battery if they go close enough. Having more mana and one less active skill to spend it on will allow her to use her two other spells more frequently and reduce the need for item whoring a bit.
Quicksand: Just call it Quicksand. Leave the area the same at all levels, but raise duration and reduce cooldown. Small area = useless, large area = overpowered if the slow is significant. Duration would be nice at 5-8-11-14-17, cooldown 20-17-14-11-8. Making it pull towards the middle would be great if it can be implemented well, but I'm afraid that would be quite impossible. Just making it slow more and more the closer to the middle of the patch someone is to the middle of the patch, or the longer he stays it it would be quite cool though. Also even though in this version there can be 2 patches at the same time the slow shouldn't stack. If there is a variable slow maximum should be about 70%, minimum about 20% IMO.
Aka Akki: I like it a lot. The long delay at the beginning balances the constant damage which is quite high early on. Later on it is basically instant blink-through damage, hard to use and not very potent, but allowing for nice mobility. With the removal of the other nuke this would be too low, though. A solution would be adding multiple bursts during level progression or lowering the cooldown. Lowering cooldown would emphasize the blink aspect a bit too much though, imo. With the cooldown increased to more nuke-like proportions and her being very fragile I think Adding a skill that allows for a mid-range jump for 3 seconds after the blink would be nice. It would eliminate the absolute need to get Latona with her. This could be explained by her sprinting, burrowing, or whatever through the sand, building up momentum, then using that momentum to jump. Just add a skill that allows a jump of about half the range of the original blink. Jump could be like Ronin, but lower in the air and faster, and of course without the stun.
New stats could be:
1: 175 damage per burst, 1 burst, 15 seconds cd, 2.5 seconds delay
2: 175 damage per burst 1 burst, 15 seconds cd, allows for a short range jump after the blink for 3 seconds, 1.5 seconds delay
3: 175 damage per burst, 2 bursts, 14 seconds cd, 1.5 seconds delay, 1s for second burst
4: 175 damage per burst, 2 bursts, 14 seconds cd, allows for a mid range jump after the blink for 3 seconds, 0.5 seconds delay, 1 second for second burst
5: 175 damage per burst, 3 bursts, 13 seconds cd, 0.5 seconds delay, 1 second for second burst, 0.5 seconds after that for the third burst.
The amount of stats looks intimidating, but I think it would work pretty nicely ingame. Level 5 would also look damn cool, especially if the second and third burst would travel faster than the first one, third burst being the fastest.
Sands of Time: Fine I think. Damage can be tweaked. Make the duration lower, though, making the skill more predictable for the user. The cooldown is fine I think.
This would be an overall better skillset I think, reducing her huge dependancy on items a bit by giving her more mana, less to spend it on and a way to escape after blinking. Overall quite a complicated skillset, but it would work I think. It's also a wonderful theme.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 10:25
Skill 1: Nice, but what's with the increasing mana costs? I do not know of any other spell in SL that becomes more expensive as it is levelled up. Is there any compelling reason for this one to be different? Also, I do not think the duration should increase; 16 seconds is crazy for pushing for a non-channelling damage spell. Increase the DPS and projectile speed instead.
Skill 2: Meh. This skill doesn't seem to have a reason for existing other than to augment skill 1. I don't like that.
Skill 3: Imba and overly complex. Keep delay, mana cost and cooldown constant throughout the levels; instead scale the damage and cast range with level. Cooldown should stay high or he will be too good a chaser.
Ulti: I like the idea, but the mechanics are whack. It barely improves with level at all; a 1 minute delay is not any easier to time than a 2 minute delay. 800 damage at all levels is insane; basically, at the point when you first learn it, it's a one-hit KO on everyone in the area if and when you do get lucky. NO WAI. It will also be very good for pushing, as you can just pop in before you intend to push and drop the timer, so that once you push, you cast a sandstorm and a few seconds later, all the enemy creeps and any enemy heroes in the area are dead.
I suggest decreasing the delay, cooldown and damage, making the spell more controllable. And damage should definitely scale with level.
A nice idea overall. But dude, let's not spam supposedly Japanese names for everything without good reason.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 06.06.2006, 20:55
nooK:
Quote: Strange ability, 30 damage per second isn´t very much and won´t hurt hard, in contrast a vision reducing spell as a normal ability is kind of hard for the enemy heroes -> half of the game only half vision...
Vision only lasts while you're being affected by the spell. And remember, the AoE damage affects all units in the AoE, so it can hurt enoguh to do soem damage.
Quote: Would need some stats tweaking, for example the dealy should be static I think. Else it`s a good ability.
Static as in the delay should be the same on all levels?
Quote: Nice idea with the Satetsu buff, I really like it, but the ability works strange. It lats 2-1 minutes? So you have to cast it at a certain point and then 2-1 minutes after casting your enemies should be still around there?
I added the long delay to try and balance it, basicly. :P I suppsoe I could keep lower the duratino to 30 seconds and nerf cooldown and mana cost each level, that would balance it much better IMO.
Quote: The spells are all quite good cool by themselves. Could be made to look really great and and would probably work well ingame. But the synergy is just way too powerful. 2 area slows, 2 mass nukes, an ulti to deal even more damage (would be kinda hard to use though) and Blink for great mobility on top of that? Ouch...
And yes, I know she's fragile and has low mana compared to her spells. That can be quite easily fixed with items, though. Nine Headed Dragon (that lifedrain and strength boost sword) and 2 or 3 mana boosters, perfect. Maybe even Latona (or it's replacement) for doubleblink and ultimate mobility (and thus immortality unless properly permastunned in the hands of a good player).
Either the numbers on the spells would need to be nerfed beyond recognition, which would suck, or you would have to replace a skill. Probably the Sandstorm, because it has slow and damage in a nice package, removing both problems at once if replaced.
Hmm, I agree with most of that, but I really like Sandstorm. Perhaps nerf it slightly (remove the slow, edit a few things), remember, it is a channeling too, so you are completely vulnerable while using it and it can be cancelled by a stun. I do like your repalcement though, I'll see about adding it in.
Quote: Quicksand: Just call it Quicksand. Leave the area the same at all levels, but raise duration and reduce cooldown. Small area = useless, large area = overpowered if the slow is significant. Duration would be nice at 5-8-11-14-17, cooldown 20-17-14-11-8. Making it pull towards the middle would be great if it can be implemented well, but I'm afraid that would be quite impossible. Just making it slow more and more the closer to the middle of the patch someone is to the middle of the patch, or the longer he stays it it would be quite cool though. Also even though in this version there can be 2 patches at the same time the slow shouldn't stack. If there is a variable slow maximum should be about 70%, minimum about 20% IMO.
Sounds good. I AM pretty sure the pull is possible too, I think I've seen it done before.
Quote: Aka Akki: I like it a lot. The long delay at the beginning balances the constant damage which is quite high early on. Later on it is basically instant blink-through damage, hard to use and not very potent, but allowing for nice mobility. With the removal of the other nuke this would be too low, though. A solution would be adding multiple bursts during level progression or lowering the cooldown. Lowering cooldown would emphasize the blink aspect a bit too much though, imo. With the cooldown increased to more nuke-like proportions and her being very fragile I think Adding a skill that allows for a mid-range jump for 3 seconds after the blink would be nice. It would eliminate the absolute need to get Latona with her. This could be explained by her sprinting, burrowing, or whatever through the sand, building up momentum, then using that momentum to jump. Just add a skill that allows a jump of about half the range of the original blink. Jump could be like Ronin, but lower in the air and faster, and of course without the stun.
I like this alot, I'll see to changing it.
Quote: Nice, but what's with the increasing mana costs? I do not know of any other spell in SL that becomes more expensive as it is levelled up. Is there any compelling reason for this one to be different? Also, I do not think the duration should increase; 16 seconds is crazy for pushing for a non-channelling damage spell. Increase the DPS and projectile speed instead.
Consider this spell as good as gone. :wink:
Quote: Skill 2: Meh. This skill doesn't seem to have a reason for existing other than to augment skill 1. I don't like that.
It can be used for multiple things, escaping, disrupting, think, an enemy hero is closing in and you're easily outmatched, so you can cast this on him and perhaps even Aka through him and get away again, I'm sure palyers will find ways to use it.
Quote: Skill 3: Imba and overly complex. Keep delay, mana cost and cooldown constant throughout the levels; instead scale the damage and cast range with level. Cooldown should stay high or he will be too good a chaser.
Complex? You blink and a few seconds later a wave of damage flies in your direction. I'm looknig at Gale's ideas now, so it will be nerfed.
Quote: Ulti: I like the idea, but the mechanics are whack. It barely improves with level at all; a 1 minute delay is not any easier to time than a 2 minute delay. 800 damage at all levels is insane; basically, at the point when you first learn it, it's a one-hit KO on everyone in the area if and when you do get lucky. NO WAI. It will also be very good for pushing, as you can just pop in before you intend to push and drop the timer, so that once you push, you cast a sandstorm and a few seconds later, all the enemy creeps and any enemy heroes in the area are dead.
I'm keepnig the damage for now, but nerfing everything else.
Thanks for all the comments, more are welcome!
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 21:21
Metal Sonic: Quote: Consider this spell as good as gone.
Aw, but I liked it. :( It just needs tweaking IMHO.
Quote: It can be used for multiple things, escaping, disrupting, think, an enemy hero is closing in and you're easily outmatched, so you can cast this on him and perhaps even Aka through him and get away again, I'm sure palyers will find ways to use it.
But you stated that the quicksand is escapable (i.e. does not disable/stun like Blackhole, for example), in which case you can just escape with Aka Akki anyway.
Quote: Complex? You blink and a few seconds later a wave of damage flies in your direction. I'm looknig at Gale's ideas now, so it will be nerfed.
Complex in that you are changing a lot of variables with level when you really only need to change range and damage.
Quote: I'm keepnig the damage for now, but nerfing everything else.
800 damage is 800 damage whatever else you nerf. I don't see how you could nerf the rest of that stuff anyway; increasing the mana cost, duration and cooldown will be a pain, but it will do nothing at all to address the core problem of this skill.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 06.06.2006, 21:36
Hmm, well, my first impression was that you didn't like it :( I'll add the other as an option though, and nerf some things.
And yes, quicksand is escapable, but you will be signifigantly slowed by it, and you'll most likely be outran by anyone else while in it. (I'm working on a SFX for it now too, looking cool :P)
The last skill will be nerfed, damage or not, but do you think 500-600 would be more suitable?
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Galefury - 06.06.2006, 21:53
Dragon Souls does 500 with about 60s cooldown. Maybe use that as a balancing benchmark, because imo Dragon Souls is pretty balanced.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 06.06.2006, 21:58
Alright, tweaked stuff some more and added a pic of the model. The damage is changed to 600 now too, and the cooldown on lvl. 5 is 90 seconds, so I think it's quite a bit better.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 22:04
Quote: Hmm, well, my first impression was that you didn't like it
I liked the idea, just not the specifics.
Quote: And yes, quicksand is escapable, but you will be signifigantly slowed by it, and you'll most likely be outran by anyone else while in it.
The point is, if you are able to cast Quicksand, you are equally able to cast Aka Akki, unless Quicksand is cooling down.
Upon further consideration, though, I suppose Quicksand, though really underwhelming on its own, is useful enough in combination to be worth keeping. You can consider my criticism taken back. :P
Quote: The last skill will be nerfed, damage or not, but do you think 500-600 would be more suitable?
I think 800 at max level is actually okay; it is 800 from level 1-5 that is problematic. I would suggest 400/500/600/700/800 as a simple and reasonable damage progression, that is if you are hell-bent on retaining the super-long countdown.
A better option, IMHO, would be to reduce the damage significantly, but make it easier to time, essentially breaking that big damage up into smaller parcels. Like so:
Sands of Time
Creates a Sand Timer at target location which counts down from 10 seconds, damaging all units with the Satetsu buff when the time is up.
Level 1- 150 damage, 650 AOE. 2 timers max.
Level 2- 175 damage, 750 AOE. 2 timers max.
Level 3- 175 damage, 750 AOE. 3 timers max.
Level 4- 200 damage, 850 AOE. 3 timers max.
Level 5- 200 damage, 850 AOE. 4 timers max.
This would make Sands of Time--both in its use and in the countering of its use--more skill-based and less luck-based. The cooldown should be very quick, of course.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 06.06.2006, 22:33
Hmm, I like that! I'll add it right away.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 22:38
Cool, glad you like it. I think this new version would have lots more uses; the backstab potential alone is tremendous.
On another note, could the hero class be brought a little more down to earth? If it's to have a Japanese name, I think it ought to be kept simple. Preferably no Naruto, too. :P The elemental theme of the hero does not need to be in the class, I think; I would suggest just Shikaku (assassin).
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 06.06.2006, 22:46
Hehe, it is a bit over-the-top, you're right :P Shikaku is interesting, espeically she is an assasin in a different way, not the usually clad-in-black ninja that sneaks up on you. :P I'll use, thanks!
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 22:50
You're welcome. I like that she plays differently from the other hero-killers in the game. She is more the car bomb type assassin than the poisoned umbrella sort. :P
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 06.06.2006, 22:56
Hehe, that actually made me laugh :P I've never heard it put that way, but it seems to suit her quite well! :wink: Now, to wait until nooK gives the final word... :P
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 00:18
A few things.
Limiting the number of timers by cooldown instead of a set max number is interestin,g but the issue I can see with it is that you can now constantly spam Sands of Time (mana allowing), whereas with a set max number you would have to wait for the first timer you set to go off before you can start placing new ones.
Basically, with the version I proposed, it would work like this:
1) You start setting timers continuously, with next to no cooldown
2) 10 seconds later the first timer goes off (dealing a burst of 800 damage over a few seconds if successful); simultaneously you start setting a new batch of timers
3) 10 seconds later those timers go off, etc.
With your version, it would work like this:
1) You start setting timers continuously, with 1 sec cooldown
2) 10 (or whatever) seconds later, the first timer goes off for 225, then 1 sec later the next one goes off for 225, then 1 sec later the next one, and so on, with no break.
In short, my version would deal 800 damage in, say, 2-3 seconds, then deal no damage for the next 10 seconds. Your version would deal 225 damage per second until such a time as the opponent manages to escape. :shock:
Your version is thus way more powerful. You'll have to factor the fact that it would deal continuous damage (vs. a sudden burst of damage) into either the mana cost or the damage per timer.
You haven't stated the value the timer counts down from, btw. :P
Could you replace the buff name with something else? 'Satetsu' is kind of random now.
I dislike the mana recharge skill. Without the old skill 1, the Shikaku will soon find herself having to rely exclusively on Sands of Time to deal damage (what's 175 in the late game?). I worry this will make her too much of a one-trick pony. With the old skill, she could hold her own as a nuker, too.
Stats-wise, I think she needs a higher strength value. She has under 1k HP at level 20, which is rather extreme (the Kunoichi is just as extreme, but that is the result of a stats-trading skill that pays off handsomely). She could stand to lose some agility, I think, and maybe even some Int--it is about time there was an Agi or Str hero who benefitted from an Int item build.
Lastly, the sword you have on her now looks a bit strange. What is it supposed to be?
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 08.06.2006, 00:42
My bad, I forgot to add the timer limit, sorry. :(
The sword is supposed to be a bit of a scimitar, but the the lack of polies on the upper part made it sort of scquare instead of curved. :P
I'll fix the final skill now, nerf her stats a little. The agi was meant to be extreme, but I'm sure a few ponits down wouldn't hurt.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 00:59
Eh, it's not that someone weilding a foreign weapon is totally implausible or anything, but could she not use a more normal katana? It would be more in keeping with the SL feel. Or if you want something more unusual, why not a historical Japanese weapon? There are plenty to choose from. Sickles, maybe; this hero, though not explicitly ninja, has the feel of one.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 08.06.2006, 01:07
Hmm, well, it was mainly becuase of her being a sand theme, I generally think of Scimitars as the wepaon of choice of those type of peopel. :P What would you think of claws? Black_Stan made a pair of them last year and I was considering adding them on her to see how it looked, I guess now would be a good time to try.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 01:08
Claws would be cool, and more assasin-ish, I think. :P I have not seen Black_Stan's claw models, but I am sure they are great.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 08.06.2006, 01:14
I'm not sure if you've seen them, they we're up at about the end of last summer, but Black_Stan made quite a few attachments (Fans, Katana, shields, claws), and he also made a Kunoichi unit (not hero), and the Ninja, as you see in SL, along with an earlier version of the Ashigaru, and earleir verisons of Date Masasume, Oda Nobunaga (the one in SL), Hattori Hanzou (not sure if he's the one in SL or not), and Yukimura Sanada (the one in SL). THen he went on a spree and removed thme all form Search and put up the new batch of stuff. :P
I'll try the claws now, sorry for that rambling. :P
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 01:35
I see! Is the Ronin model also among that number? I was wondering why I couldn't seem to find him.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 08.06.2006, 01:49
Oh! Yes, he was. I'm surprised Black_Stan never made an updated Ronin though, the model has lots of potential to be even better. Would you like me to send you the model?
I almost forgot, he had originally made a Konoichi hero as well, she used huge fans, had flying animations, and had silver hair. :P
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 01:54
Yes, I would appreciate that. metastasis(at)gmail.com. I am no modeller, but it is nice just to be able to see things in viewer. :P
I think I have seen that Kunoichi model in some map or other.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Galefury - 08.06.2006, 02:59
tegeus-Cromis wrote: I dislike the mana recharge skill. Without the old skill 1, the Shikaku will soon find herself having to rely exclusively on Sands of Time to deal damage (what's 175 in the late game?). I worry this will make her too much of a one-trick pony. With the old skill, she could hold her own as a nuker, too.
Slows generally stack (by adding), so double slow is always quite extreme. 30% slow + 30% slow = 60% slow. It can even go down to 100% slow if the movement speed minimum is set to 0. Which means for example quicksand + sandstorm + teppo could add up to at 5s of completely disabled movement.
In general 2 slows on a single hero is a very bad thing, at least if the slows are strong enough to be significant when not stacked. If both skills slowed only slightly it would be OK I guess, but why not just have one skill that properly slows and replace the other one?
I think that with the new spammable damage ultimate either Sandstorm or Quicksand should definitely be replaced. Also I think a countdown of 10 would be too high with an AOE of 850, or even smaller at lower levels.
I have another problem with the ulti: the scare factor during sieges would be way too much. Placing the timers evenly over the countdown around the towers and putting a quicksand and/or sandstorm there too to inflict the status would pretty much lock out the enemy team from defending. If they tried they would take tremendous damage. Not really a big issue in a solo push, but in a big siege (3 pushers vs 3 defenders for example) this could very easily mean the end of that expo. It would also be quite overpowered in defending, for the same reasons. Giving it a 1 minute cooldown and 700 damage would be enough I think, lowering countdown to 7 to compensate a bit. This would keep the scare factor, but the opponents could quickly come back after the threat was gone instead of being locked out for a longer time. Or maybe not changing countdown, but removing the aoe and making it affect everyone on the map with the buff again like in the original idea. Spammable ultimates can be nice, but in this case I don't think it would be a good idea.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 03:16
Galefury: Quote: Slows generally stack (by adding), so double slow is always quite extreme. 30% slow + 30% slow = 60% slow. It can even go down to 100% slow if the movement speed minimum is set to 0. Which means for example quicksand + sandstorm + teppo could add up to at 5s of completely disabled movement.
In general 2 slows on a single hero is a very bad thing, at least if the slows are strong enough to be significant when not stacked. If both skills slowed only slightly it would be OK I guess, but why not just have one skill that properly slows and replace the other one?
Dude, it's no big deal. Put the slow on Quicksand and keep Sandstorm as a pure damage spell. Quite simple.
Quote: Also I think a countdown of 10 would be too high with an AOE of 850, or even smaller at lower levels.
Do you mean 'too low'?
Quote: I have another problem with the ulti: the scare factor during sieges would be way too much. Placing the timers evenly over the countdown around the towers and putting a quicksand and/or sandstorm there too to inflict the status would pretty much lock out the enemy team from defending. If they tried they would take tremendous damage. Not really a big issue in a solo push, but in a big siege (3 pushers vs 3 defenders for example) this could very easily mean the end of that expo. It would also be quite overpowered in defending, for the same reasons. Giving it a 1 minute cooldown and 700 damage would be enough I think, lowering countdown to 7 to compensate a bit. This would keep the scare factor, but the opponents could quickly come back after the threat was gone instead of being locked out for a longer time.
Dust of Appearance ftw.
Also, you can tell if your opponent placed the timers all at once for a big burst of damage or staggered them for continual damage. Just observe the casting animation.
Quote: Or maybe not changing countdown, but removing the aoe and making it affect everyone on the map with the buff again like in the original idea.
I don't think it was ever meant to affect everyone on the map. Am I mistaken, Sonic?
Anyway, that would be a terrible idea. It would make the damage totally inescapable.
Quote: Spammable ultimates can be nice, but in this case I don't think it would be a good idea.
In the version I proposed, the ultimate is not truly spammable; rather it is a single big spell that you cast in little chunks.
I would also suggest that the timer be created on the spot where the Shikkaku is standing. Combined with the short timer I suggested, this would mean she would have to place herself on the front lines to be effective. This would be one of those situations where the best defence is a dead enemy; after all, she is not exactly a tank.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 03:33
Oh, and Metal Sonic: Quote: I think I'll keep this [Aka Akki] the same for now, it's balanced enough for me.
The problem is not that the skill is overpowered; it isn't. The problem is that there is little incentive to get more than one level in it until one has no choice, as successive levels use up more and more of your precious mana, the first level is sufficient for escape, the delay does not make it really difficult to land the damage part of the skill since you have a slow, and the static damage means that the damage quickly becomes irrelevant anyway.
Static damage = bad. Seriously.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Galefury - 08.06.2006, 10:41
What the fuck does dust of appearance have to do with spamming the ulti continously during a siege or defense? This is not about seeing the timers, this is about the enemies taking 200 additional damage for every 2.5 seconds they stay around to defend or attack. That skill is not an ultimate that is delivered in seperate bursts, but a 200 damage 850 AOE nuke with 2.5 seconds cooldown. The only counter to this I can think of is stunlocking and killing the Shikaku while dispelling the killer buff from anyone who has it. Probably not really possible if she was smart and put a Quicksand down first.
Damage being inescapable with the AOE being the whole map? Not at all. Just run away so the hero cant inflict the buff on you anymore, or if she already did, dispel it. As the buff only lasts 10s on heros you should be OK if you run away as soon as you see her place the timer. Also lowering the timer gives the hero less time to place the buff on as many heros as possible.
Removing the slow from Sandstorm would be OK. Quicksand slow shouldn't be too high, though. It is an AOE skill after all. A large area of low slow and a small area of large slow in the middle would be nice.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Kouenzan - 08.06.2006, 10:50
hey how about katar as weapon? it may suit into the assassin theme :)
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 15:32
Galefury: Quote: What the fuck does dust of appearance have to do with spamming the ulti continously during a siege or defense? This is not about seeing the timers, this is about the enemies taking 200 additional damage for every 2.5 seconds they stay around to defend or attack.
What do Sentry Wards have to do with spamming remote mines? This is not about seeing the mines and destroying them--
Oh, wait. It actually is.
Use your common sense, man.
P.S. I have been short with you at times, but you are being downright rude here. Please reconsider.
Quote: That skill is not an ultimate that is delivered in seperate bursts, but a 200 damage 850 AOE nuke with 2.5 seconds cooldown.
In practical terms it is an ultimate delivered in separate bursts, as you will need the timers to go off with little delay in between each timer, or your enemies will simply run away after taking one burst or at most two.
Quote: The only counter to this I can think of is stunlocking and killing the Shikaku while dispelling the killer buff from anyone who has it.
Then you are quite lacking in creativity. Perhaps you need to play more games before handing down your oh-so-authoritative opinion on how almost every idea is inherently broken in some way or other. If I recall, your version of the game is one where Scroll of Negation has one charge, enemy creeps that die to your towers do not give you experience, enemy towers do not give you experience when destroyed, and peasants take a long time to be killed. Possibly in this very special version of the game, your opinions would be correct, but I assure you that in the version everyone else is playing, they are not.
Quote: Probably not really possible if she was smart and put a Quicksand down first.
Because of course no hero in SL has a skill that enables them to attack despite being slowed, like a skill that enables one to blink multiple times while casting Fan of Knives, or a skill that propels one through the air to attack one's opponent, or a skill that causes you to charge at your opponent at great speeds. And of course there are no items in SL that provide Blink, or a huge boost to move speed, or Silence.
Yes, you're quite right. A 60% slow makes it totally impossible to take down or otherwise disable a <1k HP hero.
Quote: Damage being inescapable with the AOE being the whole map? Not at all. Just run away so the hero cant inflict the buff on you anymore, or if she already did, dispel it.
Pray tell, what prevents you from applying these clever tactics to the version of the ulti that I suggested, or the version Metal Sonic has there now? Nothing at all.
Quote: As the buff only lasts 10s on heros you should be OK if you run away as soon as you see her place the timer.
Unless of course she places it out of sight, then Aka Akkis in and casts the buff on you mere seconds before the timer goes off.
Quote: Also lowering the timer gives the hero less time to place the buff on as many heros as possible.
Now you want to lower the timer? Further up on this page you suggested increasing the timer, saying, 'Giving it a 1 minute cooldown and 700 damage would be enough I think, lowering countdown to 7 to compensate a bit.' Perhaps you should settle your internal quarrels before bringing them to other people.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 08.06.2006, 21:01
Whoa. :o I don't think I'll comment on that, just that I think the ulti is fine the way it is now. I'll fix Akki though, the problem you brought up is quite significant.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
IMassAcolyte - 10.06.2006, 22:00
OK I SEE IM LATE TO THIS SUBJECT AND I HAVENT READ THROUGH ALL THE POSTS.
Ok I only have 2 comments on this hero. Let me start off by saying its a very good hero. May be a little unbalanced here and there but good nevertheless.
2: Ok for quick sand: While i was reading it i thought, "what if they make it to the center... and are pulled underground... they'd sufficate!" So i was thinking that if any unit come in contact with, or reaches the middle of the AoE, then they should take a small damage over time.
LIKE I SAID I HAVENT READ ALL THE POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT (actually i didnt even finish the first page :shock: )SO IDK IF THIS WAS ALREADY SUGGESTED OR NOT. :)
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Metal Sonic - 10.06.2006, 22:37
Hmm, that may be a good idea, but I don't really want it to be a damaging ability, Sandstorm is good enoguh for me. :wink:
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
IMassAcolyte - 13.06.2006, 02:27
Well like you said, its escapable... so its not heavy damage done.
Re: Hero : Shikaku (was Satetsu)
Vladhslavh - 14.10.2006, 01:59
GetFangInferno did some nice sand models on wc3sear.ch, could be usefull...
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