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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: tegeus-Cromis - nooK - Kouenzan - Metal Sonic - Galefury - roxas_kh2 - Viziroth - Shadow Phoenix - Omerta - Lyncor - Forbidden - Skirn - hanzel2m - Reaper - Anton - wizard.dark - RoboFerret - Kai Okarian - A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - SketchOfNight - Menthol.Love - Andriejj - Lord.DarthVader - BD Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Balance Issues Antworten: 255 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Item Balance Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 11 Monaten, 19 Tagen, 16 Stunden, 17 Minuten
Alle Beiträge und Antworten zu "Item Balance"
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 12.05.2006, 18:21Item Balance
Let me first establish a baseline for item costs in Samurai Legends. I will be using Helmet of the Dragon (assuming that +5/+5 and not +6/+6 is the bonus) and Wakizashi/Shamsir as the de facto 'balanced' items of the game in terms of cost vs effectiveness. In the case of overpowered items, I will usually recommend an increase in price; in the case of underpowered items, I will instead usually recommend an increase in effectiveness. This is because I feel that as it now stands, SL already has quite a low effectiveness/inventory space density, and I would not like to see it lowered further.
I apologise in advance for the repeated comparisons to DotA that I will be making; I feel it is useful as whatever else may be said about it, DotA is certainly the custom map that has been through the most balancing based on the greatest amount of (and highest level) player input. Every item has been buffed/nerfed/rebuffed/renerfed at least a couple of times and a certain equilibrium has been reached.
Overpowered items
Skywalker Boots
Issues: The huuuge, long duration speed boost is worth more than 1200 gold and 5 honour. The difference this item makes is so great that with many heroes, it is practically impossible to get kills without it, and later in the game, when more people have it, it becomes impossible to escape getting killed without it.
My suggestion: Tweak the speed boost. Decrease the duration by a lot--I'm thinking halving it--so it is less of an uber chase/escape item, but decrease the cooldown by almost (almost!) as much to compensate. Basically, it should be used more, but do less.
Price-wise, I think it should cost more gold, but less honour, say, 700 gold and 3 honour for the recipe. This would keep the overall cost about the same (though of course it is hard to compare gold cost with honour cost) while causing players to buy this item later, as honour can come very quickly if you are lucky/have a noob opponent, but the rate of amassing gold is much more stable. This in turn would make Skywalker Boots more of a tactical choice and less of a no-brainer.
Also, introduce another, non-stacking recipe item that boosts MS by a different amount (ideally a lower one that is in effect all the time) and has another bonus. I have DotA's Treads vs Travel in mind here. Give players a choice.
Latona
Issues: Blink is the most versatile skill in any game. In DotA, where items in general are more effective for their cost than SL, Kelen's DoE gives Blink and nothing but Blink for 2150; here you are practically giving it away with an item that costs less gold, comes in two smallish bits and gives a useful bonus on the side. There is no reason at all for any hero not to buy it.
My suggestion: This sounds a bit drastic, but I would suggest increasing the gold cost of the recipe to 2200, so people actually have to think about whether to get Latona instead of just spamming it thoughtlessly. Of course, this would be a horrible blow to int heroes (currently just the Warlord); to make up for it, lower the recipe cost of the Blade of Life and Death by 500.
Health potions
Issues: Cheap instant refill = impossible to balance. As it is now, any hero with a health potion will defeat/be able to escape from any hero who does not. Huh?
My suggestion: Take a leaf from DotA's book--have health pots give rejuvenation that stops on taking damage. Pots should help you stay in the lane or heal up before a push, not (at early levels) almost double your HP in a fight!
Jadeblade
Issues: It is basically a Helmet of the Dragon and 3 Shamshirs combined. That would give a gold cost of 2900, but remember that inventory slots are valuable. In this case, an additional 400 gold and 10 honour saves you an astounding 3 inventory slots. That is just too good a deal. If there was gold loss for deaths, it would probably be okay, but since there isn't there is no risk involved in saving up the 2300 gold for the recipe.
My suggestion: Jadeblade has the feel of an 'ultimate' item; I suggest running with that. Increase the bonuses it gives, but increase the price even more. Slot in an extra item, making Jadeblade something to build towards. I'm thinking +20 dmg, +7 Str and +7 Agi, and have it be made from Master Katana and Helmet of the Dragon, with a recipe that has a cheap gold cost but a suitably high honour cost (13-15?). The item combination is a little weird in terms of flavour, maybe, but honestly a pair of boots and a mask turning into a better pair of boots doesn't make much sense either. :P It comes with the territory.
Ninja-To
Issues: Mildly unbalanced in that it is too good on Agi heroes compared to the Wakizashi, giving +8 dmg and +3% IAS.
My suggestion: Simple--remove the +3 Agi, substitute +10% IAS, making it equally beneficial on all heroes. Increase the cost to 1200.
Underpowered items
Zanbato
Issues: Oh. Em. Eff. Gee. 7000 gold, 15 honour gives you. . . +10 all stats?? No offence, but what were you smoking? On an Agi or Str hero, I would almost rather have a single Jadeblade than a Zanbato. +20 dmg, +5% IAS and +125 HP or +10 dmg, +10% IAS and +250 HP? One has twice as much damage, the other twice as much HP and IAS. It's quite a tough fight, and this between a 3300 gold, 10 honour item vs a 700 gold, 15 honour item. Jadeblade is, as I mentioned, slightly overpowered, but nevertheless something's very wrong.
My suggestion: Keep the price, but give a big, big buff to the bonuses. This doesn't need to take the form of stats only, but could include a powerful active ability. I (the player) am sacrificing Blink and 10% Lifesteal by purchasing the recipe for this thing; make it worthwhile! For example: +12 all stats, active ability - deal 500% normal damage on next attack made within 5 seconds.
All armour items
Issues: The damage reduction you've given to +armour is really, really weak. Simple as that. The spell reduction on some of them sounds useful, but it is sad for spell reduction to be the best thing about armour items. Besides, it's unclear which skills are attack type Spells and which actually are attack type Hero or whatever, so the player can't really tell how much use he's getting from the spell reduction aspect of it.
Maybe you're unconvinced as to the current uselessness of armour. Look at it this way: on a lvl 20 Yari Samurai with no other items, a top-of-the-line suit of Samurai Armour grants an additional 13% damage reduction, which works out to 260 effective HP. A Nine Headed Dragon will provide 250 HP as well as 10 damage, for the same gold price and 4 honour less. That's absurd.
My suggestion: Armour in general should become more effective before any attempt at balancing armour items can be made. Of course this should be taken into consideration when buffing overall hero damage in the next version.
All regen items
Issues: Simply put, regen is poor. No one needs regen with fountains so easily accessible, potions so potent and the regen available (1 HP/sec, 3 HP/sec, 25% MP regen) is unimpressive.
My suggestion: Fix the potions and fountain location. I've mentioned this elsewhere.
All non-health consumables
Issues: They don't stack. At all. Everyone wants spell shield or instant mana or the ability to resurrect friendly creeps, but after the early game, no one wants to sacrifice one slot to do so once.
My suggestion: Let consumables stack infinitely in most cases--if people want to buy enough mana pots to last the whole game in one shot, that's their business--and let them stack with a cap in special cases. Basically, if you want to prevent overuse, increase cooldowns, don't prevent stacking.
If you do this, price tweaks of varying degrees will be necessary, of course.
Silverblade and Blade of the Seven Storms
Issues: Agi heroes don't benefit that much from Silverblade's +7% IAS (from Agi) due to their already relatively high attack speed, and Str and Int heroes don't benefit much for the obvious reason of their not getting damage from +Agi. It's pretty much just a stepping stone to Seven Storms, which is bad in itself, but even worse is the fact that Seven Swords is really not that useful. 6 second Silence is very powerful in a fast-paced game where battles are usually decided in even less time than that (cough, DotA), but battles in Samurai Legends usually involve a lot of feinting and chasing; if someone silences you, you can usually afford to just run away and fight him 6 seconds later, or if you see he's saving his Silence, you'll just make your fight-or-flight decision at a higher HP threshhold than you would otherwise. It's not useless, but it's too too situational. Very weak compared to 30% Lifesteal or Blink.
My suggestion: Instead of Silence, give it a powerful Purge! Simple as that. It would be more flavourful, too. Think about it.
Kobun
Issues: One big one--Poison means no Lifesteal, means a bad choice in the long run while being not cheap enough to get early.
My suggestion: Strangely enough, I don't suggest changing the Kobun at all. Instead, make Lifesteal a 0 radius aura so you can have both. This would also allow Lifesteal to stack with the Lifesteal from the Yari's ult, which only makes sense--the only strength hero currently in the game (soon to be one of two) should get the full benefit from the only two dedicated strength items. Increase the cost of the two Dragon swords to balance it.
If that doesn't fly with you, at least up the dmg/second for the Kobun's poison, or make it able to kill. (But please don't go with this option just because it sounds safer. :P) Otherwise it is simply not viable lategame, and we all know SL will go to the lategame.
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I'm sorry to say I won't be able to reply to your replies (ha) for the next two weeks due to the overseas exercise I mentioned earlier, but in the meantime I hope this post will be helpful to you in some way. :)
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 12.05.2006, 20:18
Wow =)
First one thing:
I hate making items, this is the most boring part of map making in my opinion and I hate it :P
So donīt blame me for imbalanced items :P
So now weīre going to change this -> here we go..
Skywalker Boots:
Duration was 45 seconds, thatīs way too long. Changed it to 20 seconds and even considering to make it shorter. Also changed the cost to 700 gold and 3 honor like you suggested.
Latona:
Set gold cost to 2000. Donīt know if I will make more changes.
Health potions:
Really donīt know about this. The way it currently works is like in ToB -> purchaseables are often more effective than permanent expensive items. Potion of Health, Anti-magic and Scroll of Negation are very good. īPotion of Health is the anti gangbang no.1 .
You are used to the other kind of gameplay -> Dota -> Buying imba items, and nearly useless purchaseables. Hope I can combine the best aspects of this two possibilities into SL.
Jadeblade:
Taking your suggestions into consideration ;)
Ninja-to:
Perfect suggestion, nothing more to say ;)
Will comment on the others tomorrow...
Re: Item Balance
Kouenzan - 15.05.2006, 06:25
you hate making item idea?? let me do it! :)
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 27.05.2006, 23:22
Quote: Health potions:
Really donīt know about this. The way it currently works is like in ToB -> purchaseables are often more effective than permanent expensive items. Potion of Health, Anti-magic and Scroll of Negation are very good. īPotion of Health is the anti gangbang no.1 .
Yes, and that's exactly the problem! One might as well not bother attacking/ambushing/ganging a hero once you see he has a single health pot in his inventory. That sucks.
Quote: You are used to the other kind of gameplay -> Dota -> Buying imba items, and nearly useless purchaseables.
DotA items are not imba; they are almost perfectly balanced against each other IMHO. That items determine hero power is not imba, it is just a different sort of gameplay.
And consumables are so far from useless it isn't funny. Health and mana pots are indispensable items--they just aren't for use during a fight.
Anyway, please realise that I am not complaining that consumables are overpowered per se. My problem is that they give so much early game survivability that they make the early game less interesting, while hogging so much inventory space that they very rarely appear at all in the late game. To solve the first problem, I suggest tweaking the health pot to heal, say, X% of max hitpoints OR the current fixed value, whichever is lower. To solve the second problem, I suggest allowing consumables to stack, but with very significant cooldowns.
Quote: Hope I can combine the best aspects of this two possibilities into SL.
I hope so too. :)
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 29.05.2006, 14:27
Here`s a idea i came up with. I remove the hp and mana pot from the normal shop and place instead non-combat comsumables there.
But by building a Shrine of Merchants the old pots will still be available, this would tweak the shrine and those powerful comsumables wouldn`t be buyable from start.
Also I think I will lower the regeneration rate of the fountains once again.
What do you think?
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 29.05.2006, 17:31
That's a novel idea, one I hadn't thought of. I like it. :D Let me check if I understand you correctly, though. Basically, the old health and mana pots will be replaced by DotA-style, regen-over-time health and mana pots, but instand health and mana pots (with more impressive names, I take it :P) will be available once you build a Shrine of Merchants? That's great. I assume you will continue to be able to get free regen-over-time health and mana pots from the Shrine.
You haven't addressed the issue of stacking, though. Let consumables stack into a single slot! Pretty please? :cry:
On another note, while you're introducing new (non-consumable) items to the game, perhaps some of them could find a home in the Shrine of Merchants? A good item (or upgrader) or two that can only be bought from the Shrine of Merchants would make players really have to think when choosing between Shrines, not to mention increasing the 'legendary' appeal of those items.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 29.05.2006, 20:17
Quote: That's a novel idea, one I hadn't thought of. I like it. Let me check if I understand you correctly, though. Basically, the old health and mana pots will be replaced by DotA-style, regen-over-time health and mana pots, but instand health and mana pots (with more impressive names, I take it ) will be available once you build a Shrine of Merchants? That's great. I assume you will continue to be able to get free regen-over-time health and mana pots from the Shrine.
Exactly, donīt know if the "strong" instant pots should be for free or cost a little bit.
Quote: You haven't addressed the issue of stacking, though. Let consumables stack into a single slot! Pretty please?
Each "regen-over-time" item will have 3 charges.
Quote: On another note, while you're introducing new (non-consumable) items to the game, perhaps some of them could find a home in the Shrine of Merchants? A good item (or upgrader) or two that can only be bought from the Shrine of Merchants would make players really have to think when choosing between Shrines, not to mention increasing the 'legendary' appeal of those items.
Donīt know if I can get this in for the next version, there ere already so many things to do, but further versions will include more items of course.
EDIT: Please suggest names, descriptions and values for the 2 over-time-regen items.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 29.05.2006, 20:29
Quote: Exactly, donīt know if the "strong" instant pots should be for free or cost a little bit.
I think they should have a cost--perhaps equal to the normal cost of the regen pots?
Quote: Each "regen-over-time" item will have 3 charges.
But why not let all consumables stack, with appropriate caps? I still don't get it.
Quote: Donīt know if I can get this in for the next version, there ere already so many things to do, but further versions will include more items of course.
Understandable. I just meant that when you do add more items, one or two of them could go in the Shrine of Merchants.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 29.05.2006, 20:37
Quote: But why not let all consumables stack, with appropriate caps? I still don't get it.
Just donīt like the feel of having 10 stacked pots in my inventar. Also gameplay-wise there is no big difference I think, you just have to use sometimes your merc to transfer items and I like that :)
Quote: EDIT: Please suggest names, descriptions and values for the 2 over-time-regen items.
More important to me now ;)
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 00:20
Quote: Just donīt like the feel of having 10 stacked pots in my inventar. Also gameplay-wise there is no big difference I think, you just have to use sometimes your merc to transfer items and I like that
Fair enough, I guess. Will the other consumables also be stackable to 3 charges, then?
Quote: EDIT: Please suggest names, descriptions and values for the 2 over-time-regen items.
Elixir of Life for health, Elixir of Wisdom for mana. No need to get all fancy. :P Description and values can stay exactly as they are in the Healing Potion and Mana Potion now, I think. Perhaps just make the Elixir of Wisdom cost 100 gold, as in truth the instant health boost is more valuable than the mana boost.
Re: Item Balance
Kouenzan - 30.05.2006, 12:08
Quote: On another note, while you're introducing new (non-consumable) items to the game, perhaps some of them could find a home in the Shrine of Merchants? A good item (or upgrader) or two that can only be bought from the Shrine of Merchants would make players really have to think when choosing between Shrines, not to mention increasing the 'legendary' appeal of those items.
ohhh i have an idea, backpack?? when clicked, it will display the consumable items in a window. buyable at shrine of merchant :P just my idea? whatcha think???
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 30.05.2006, 17:42
Quote: Fair enough, I guess. Will the other consumables also be stackable to 3 charges, then?
Donīt think so. The other consumables are for special occasions only, to make an ambush with ninjas, too revive your army during a siege, or to give you spell immunity. If those would be stackable/have charges they would become imba I think, everybody would spam anti-magic for example.
Another note on the over-time-regen items: The health-over-time item can be instantly used, it doesnīt require targeting your own hero like in Dota because that sucks :P
Quote: ohhh i have an idea, backpack?? when clicked, it will display the consumable items in a window. buyable at shrine of merchant just my idea? whatcha think???
Don`t think I will include an backpack, because then there are 6 item slots for weapons, armor,... item whore ;)
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 17:59
Quote: Donīt think so. The other consumables are for special occasions only, to make an ambush with ninjas, too revive your army during a siege, or to give you spell immunity. If those would be stackable/have charges they would become imba I think, everybody would spam anti-magic for example.
But as it is no one uses them, because late game that slot represents another Jadeblade. Also, you can ill afford to keep going back to base to buy more potions when you or your opponents are pushing, which is all the time in the late game. The only thing I see people using late game is the Health Pot, and that's because it is pretty much broken at the moment.
I think a better solution is to allow them to stack, but give them long cooldowns and/or make them quite expensive. You might also consider removing/altering some of them; Anti-Magic Potion, for instance, I consider inherently problematic due to the incredible power of one-button magic immunity. Look at the problems balancing BKB in DotA. Why not turn it into a Scroll of Silence instead? Same purpose (preventing people from casting spells at you), more skill required to use it well. More interesting, and I don't think there would be a balance problem stacking that.
Come on, at least let them stack to 2. Just 2!
Quote: Another note on the over-time-regen items: The health-over-time item can be instantly used, it doesnīt require targeting your own hero like in Dota because that sucks
Hurrah for that! It would also ensure that it wouldn't muscle in on the Scroll of Healing's territory, and that's good.
Quote: Don`t think I will include an backpack, because then there are 6 item slots for weapons, armor,... item whore
I agree.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 30.05.2006, 18:05
What yo you think of removing blink from Latona and make it only available on Fujin?
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 19:22
The only problem I see with that is that it would give Intelligence heroes not much reason to buy Fujin. :shock: The Warlord does not particularly need Blink, and I imagine the Onmyoji will not have a whole lot of use for it either. (Do you usually see DotA's Blink Dagger used by Lich or Tinker? I thought not.) They would probably just stack Latonas--I assume it would now be +7 Int and no ability, similar to Silverblade--leaving Fujin an item used only by Str and Agi heroes and the Kunoichi. . . .
Now that I think about it, it occurs to me that the problem is poor matching of item abilities to stat items. I suggest moving Blink to Blade of the Seven Storms and Silence to Fujin. This way, Agi heroes will continue to have a good reason to get Seven Storms, Intelligence heroes will continue to have a good reason to get Fujin (Silence--or Purge, if you follow my earlier suggestion--has pretty much the same utility on all heroes), and no one will be able to spam Blink for such a low gold and honour cost. If you follow this route, I suggest you make Dragon's Fury/Nine-Headed Dragon work the same way, too (+7 Strength on the former, +10 Strength and Lifesteal on the latter).
I'm sorry that most of my suggestions seem to be so drastic, but sometimes the best solution is drastic. :P
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 30.05.2006, 19:51
Hm dagger is useful for all kinds of heroes, I`m currently thinking of creating a new blink item and giving Latona/Fujin an ability for INT heroes.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 20:28
That would work too. :P Yes, Dagger is good on all heroes, but less so on most Intelligence heroes, which Fujin/Latona is meant for. Hence the mismatch.
I await this new ability with interest. :)
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 30.05.2006, 20:34
Quote: I await this new ability with interest.
Just suggest something :P
Also the new blink item needs a name + description.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 21:10
I actually think Blink and Seven Storms would be a good fit, but okay.
How about Purge for Fujin? It's a good thematic match (dispelling magic is something magic users should be able to do) and would be good on the Warlord (who tends to spend a lot of time chasing or being chased, in my experience :P) and the Kunoichi. Or, Purge for Seven Storms and Silence for Fujin--Silence would be useful on the Warlord so you don't get disabled while chasing a Teppoed foe, and double Silence on the Kunoichi would be great.
Not very original, but I think item abilities ought to be relatively simple and flexible where possible.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 30.05.2006, 21:36
I thought about Devour for Latona and Fujin, would allow to take anitmagic away to cast their spells.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 30.05.2006, 21:55
Sorry, could you rephrase? I don't think I get your meaning.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 30.05.2006, 23:08
Sry mixed something up.
I think I give Dispel (hope it`s the correct name) to Latona and Fujin, which allows the INT casters to remove anti-magic and other buffs.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 31.05.2006, 03:49
So it would basically be a Purge without the slow?
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 31.05.2006, 13:08
It removes all buffs in AoE.
Also I will add reincarnation to Zanbato, to improve it a lot.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 31.05.2006, 14:35
Quote: It removes all buffs in AoE.
Okay, that's cool then. Would it remove Oni from from the Yari? How about things like Slow (I guess not)?
Quote: Also I will add reincarnation to Zanbato, to improve it a lot.
Wow, that really is a huge buff. I assume it will be unlimited charges, loooong cooldown (like the ladder skill, or Skeleton King's)? Will the stats remain the same?
Re: Item Balance
Kouenzan - 31.05.2006, 14:53
hey about my backpack??
5 weapons/armors and 1 item for backpack (no stat add, just extra slots FOR CONSUMABLE items :D)
when you purchase consumable items, it will go automatically to backpack.
it will solve stacking :P
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 31.05.2006, 17:21
5 weapons is too much iny my opinion and I also donīt feel like adding an backpack with restrictions and all that stuff there are more important things to do/fix.
Re: Item Balance
Metal Sonic - 02.06.2006, 00:44
Woo, quite the suggestions flying around! :) I can do up a description for that new item if you want, if you have a name in mind, I'd like to hear it too, otherwise I can come up with another one :)
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 02.06.2006, 13:22
Yes would be great if you could do the name and descriptions for the blink item Metal :)
Re: Item Balance
Metal Sonic - 03.06.2006, 18:21
Ok, here's a description I came up with:
Ooarashi Dokujin (Storm dagger)
Born from the eye of a fierce storm, this magical dagger allows the wielder to fade in and out of existance in the blink of an eye, making it the favoured weapon of great assasins.
Not great I think, but I'm not sure what else to come up with right now. :o
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 03.06.2006, 20:43
Itīs fine, just need a icon now ;)
Re: Item Balance
Galefury - 05.06.2006, 12:51
Blink on Warlord is useful for the ulti. Teppu, blink, ulti.
Dispel would be nice on Latona. Making slows (like Purge) or stuns available to all heros via items creates balance problems. Things like 3 stunners getting Purge item and first permastunning then permaslowing then permastunning again...
Reincarnation would be quite a buff. Be careful with it. If it respawns you in base its lame and stupid, if it respawns you where you are its hard to balance.
Blink on a seperate item is nice.
Also maybe add another "ultimate item" like the Jadeblade that can be acquired by fusing the 3 ultimate statboosters together (not the middle ones like it is now). Give it some nice on use ability, the stat boosts from the 3 items, and another passive ability to make up for losing silence, blink (or dispel) and maybe lifesteal. I'm thinking some strong summon (with an ability of its own, dont know what it should be, though) as on use ability, and a percentage movespeed boost as added passive. Keep the lifesteal then, though.
Suggestion for the summon: flying Black Dragon with very fast movespeed (significantly faster than heros with boots!) and raise dead, as skeletons or reanimated, I'm not sure. Reanimated might be too strong, though, with the cavalry having priority due to higher HP. Would be quite versatile for herokilling, harassing and sieging. Shouldn't have too high HP because hes flying. Attack should be high, though. Maybe give him a very very short 100% bash for breaking channeling, too, to make partially up for losing silence.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 06.06.2006, 18:11
Quote: Dispel would be nice on Latona. Making slows (like Purge) or stuns available to all heros via items creates balance problems. Things like 3 stunners getting Purge item and first permastunning then permaslowing then permastunning again...
Yes that`s why I don`t want to add it.
Quote: Reincarnation would be quite a buff. Be careful with it. If it respawns you in base its lame and stupid, if it respawns you where you are its hard to balance.
Respawns you where you died, the cooldown will be very high, also the item is very expensive so i`t should be fine.
Quote: Blink on a seperate item is nice.
Yes will be much better.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 20:47
Galefury: Quote: Blink on Warlord is useful for the ulti. Teppu, blink, ulti.
My point was that Blink is less important to him than almost all the other heroes, not that it is useless. Blink is universally useful; everyone knows that.
Quote: Dispel would be nice on Latona. Making slows (like Purge) or stuns available to all heros via items creates balance problems. Things like 3 stunners getting Purge item and first permastunning then permaslowing then permastunning again...
Yet you do not see people massing Diffusal Blade in DotA; I wonder why?
My only problem with Dispel as Latona's ability is that it is already cheaply available in the form of Scroll of Negation. Take it out and I would have no quarrel with the idea.
Quote: Reincarnation would be quite a buff. Be careful with it. If it respawns you in base its lame and stupid, if it respawns you where you are its hard to balance.
What's so hard to balance about that? If anything it is easier to balance, in that if you can kill someone once, you can often kill him another time.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 07.06.2006, 13:28
Oni leech will stack with Dragonīs Fury/9 Headed Dragon.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 17:26
Do you mean this will be the case in the new version, or that it is already the case in 0.7? If it is already the case, my apologies; something must be wrong with my eyes. :P
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 07.06.2006, 18:05
In the next version.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 18:48
Cool.
Re: Item Balance
Galefury - 08.06.2006, 00:34
How is blink less important to the warlord, he has a slow, not that high hp, and an ulti that needs him to be close to the enemy. Slowers or stunners with blink are nice, because blink + slow or stun lets the rest of the team catch up. The other points are self explanatory I think.
Dispel on Latona wouldn't be charged and give other bonuses. A scroll of negation with only one charge is pretty much a waste of the item slot. Especially with the AMS potion not being used too much at the moment.
Reincarnation with full HP and Mana is very very powerful. How about the enemy could only kill you because you were alone, low on hp or low on mana? Also it effectively doubles sieging duration by doubling your HP.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 01:31
Galefury: Quote: How is blink less important to the warlord, he has a slow, not that high hp, and an ulti that needs him to be close to the enemy.
1) Teppo alone is enough for him to land his ulti.
2) Teppo plus Skywalker Boots is enough for him to kill just by chasing, barring an opponent who also has Skywalker Boots ready.
3) Teppo alone is enough for him to escape a single opponent.
4) Teppo plus heal is enough for him to escape two or even three opponents.
5) Teppo plus heal plus Skywalker Boots is enough for him to escape anything.
Compare this with the case of the Yari Samurai and Yumi Samurai, who have low movespeeds and no chasing skills, or the Shinobi, who has one catch-up skill but no slow or stun, or the Ronin who has two good stuns but a chase skill that is, as of now, very poor. The only hero who needs Blink less than the Warlord is the Ninja.
Quote: Slowers or stunners with blink are nice, because blink + slow or stun lets the rest of the team catch up.
With the long range of Teppo, one wonders why you need to catch up in the first place. I mean, certainly you'll find yourself in this sort of situation occasionally, but it is hardly common.
Quote: Dispel on Latona wouldn't be charged and give other bonuses.
If you are trying to say that DotA players do not spam Diffusal Blade because it is charged, I think you must never have played a hero who uses a Diffusal --> Manta build before, or you would know that it is actually quite difficult to use up all 10 charges in a typical game.
Quote: A scroll of negation with only one charge is pretty much a waste of the item slot. Especially with the AMS potion not being used too much at the moment.
It appears you have never bought Scroll of Negation before, either, or you would know that it comes with 3 charges.
Quote: Reincarnation with full HP and Mana is very very powerful. How about the enemy could only kill you because you were alone, low on hp or low on mana? Also it effectively doubles sieging duration by doubling your HP.
Aaaaand it appears you have never played against or using the Skeleton King before, either, or you would know that 90% of the time you end up dead when you have Reincarnation ready, the rest of your team is either also dead or retreating, and the whole enemy team gather around your corpse to wait for you to get back up.
Re: Item Balance
Galefury - 08.06.2006, 02:15
The only thing you're completely right about is Teppo being imba.
Catching up with only Teppo is impossible if the enemy is already out of sight. Blink to bring you into range, Teppo to slow him down. Positioning yourself for ulti on one hero is easy with teppo, doing it against multiple heros is not. It's not necessarily a good idea to blink into the middle of enemy heros anyway, though.
I didn't mean Latona vs Diffusal Blade, I meant Latona vs Scroll of Negation. Infinite charges of Dispel and an Int bonus might be worth the item slot late game, Scroll of Negation might not.
I never bought a SoN, because the description says it has ONE charge. Also I have never seen an enemy using anti magic potion, the only thing I would deem absolutely necessary to dispel (not saying dispel would be useless in general, just not useful enough to sacrifice an item slot for one charge of it). Those two things caused me to just ignore the Scroll. Which means I thought it was like the description said, one charge of aoe dispel.
I used SK 2 or 3 times, and reinc saved me a few times. More often than not actually. Either because help arrived, or because I only got killed because my HP were low at the time. I played with people who know what they're doing, against pubs, though. So that doesn't say too much. I'm a dota nub, though, which kind of compensates for the good team.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 02:40
Galefury: Quote: Catching up with only Teppo is impossible if the enemy is already out of sight. Blink to bring you into range, Teppo to slow him down.
Yeah, sure, but how did he get out of sight in the first place? It happens, I know (like when you're arriving on the scene late), but like I said, it's not that common. Basically, without Blink, you are only missing out on killing targets of opportunity; if you really set out to kill someone, by BSing or if he unwisely decides to fight you, you will do fine with just Teppo, Dragon Souls and your normal attacks (Skywalker Boots seal the deal). This is not the case for some other heroes, who actually need Blink to kill reliably (Shinobi), or to kill at all (Yari).
Quote: I didn't mean Latona vs Diffusal Blade, I meant Latona vs Scroll of Negation. Infinite charges of Dispel and an Int bonus might be worth the item slot late game, Scroll of Negation might not.
I dunno, man. Do you really need more than 3 charges of spell negation for a single defence or push?
You shouldn't take the Int bonus into consideration, as all we are examining is what would be a good active to put on Latona.
Quote: I never bought a SoN, because the description says it has ONE charge. Also I have never seen an enemy using anti magic potion, the only thing I would deem absolutely necessary to dispel (not saying dispel would be useless in general, just not useful enough to sacrifice an item slot for one charge of it). Those two things caused me to just ignore the Scroll. Which means I thought it was like the description said, one charge of aoe dispel.
If dispelling buffs is generally not needed, why do you think it would be a good idea to put that ability on Latona?
Quote: I used SK 2 or 3 times, and reinc saved me a few times. More often than not actually. Either because help arrived, or because I only got killed because my HP were low at the time. I played with people who know what they're doing, against pubs, though. So that doesn't say too much. I'm a dota nub, though, which kind of compensates for the good team.
Well, if you plan to wander about on your own, and your teammates are on the ball enough to save you when you die, sure, Reincarnation can be useful. However, in a team battle--which is all the fighting that will happen late game, given decent teams--everyone will simply ignore you in favour of other targets. They will only target you when everyone else is dead or has retreated and you are, for some reason, still hanging around. In that situation, Reincarnation will do you no good (unless, for instance, you have BKB and Boots of Travel/a Scroll of Town Portal to get away once you revive).
It's not that on-the-spot Reincarnation is useless; far from it. It is just nowhere near as good/difficult to balance as you think it is.
Re: Item Balance
Galefury - 08.06.2006, 03:27
tegeus-Cromis wrote: You shouldn't take the Int bonus into consideration, as all we are examining is what would be a good active to put on Latona.
Were talking about Latona, right? It has an int bonus, which needs to be taken into consideration. Also remember, by using dispel with the scrolls you are sacrificing money. On Latona it wouldn't be charged, which means you can use it without any worries.
ToB example: Wands of Negation vs. the Warlock's Devour Magic skill. I don't use wons against summons for example, while Devour Magic is a very nice counter to Summons. Spamming all 3 charges of wons with no cooldown on summons would do more damage to them than a casting of Devour, but it is almost never done, because it simply isn't worth the money and losing the ability to dispel (by using up all charges).
Quote:
(not saying dispel would be useless in general, just not useful enough to sacrifice an item slot for one charge of it).
With 3 charges it can be quite worthwile, especially if the imbaboots speed boost is dispellable. I don't know if it is, though.
About SK: It was more during mid game when reincarnation saved me, not during the big team battle phase. Going with someone to kill some enemy hero, then going back to some lane to push a little. Trying to leech some HP back, then getting attacked by one or two heros.
Also, as you said, one of the aspects of having reincarnation is that it makes you less of a target. The gameplay and psychological aspects of having reincarnation is what makes it hard to balance, not just the obvious use of saving ones ass.
1. Chasing and sieging, you can be much more agressive if you know that even if you get killed, it doesn't really matter much.
2. Double life bar and a free mana refill when you most need it.
3. Getting targeted less, adding even more of a survival boost to a skill which already makes you survive dying.
4. And really least important IMO: more of a chance of surviving ganks or surprise attacks in unfortunate moments.
The stuff involving suiciding (or accepting the possiblity of an action being suicide) are not really an issue with SK, because even tanks like SK die quite quickly when focused on. But in SL, where hero killing is pretty hard, and getting away is pretty easy, reincarnation is a very very powerful tool to have. Giving a skill which is usually an ultimate as item ability is always problematic.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 04:05
Galefury: Quote: Were talking about Latona, right? It has an int bonus, which needs to be taken into consideration.
No, it does not. We are not 'talking about Latona'; we are talking about what active ability would be a good fit for Latona's status as an Int item.
Quote: Also remember, by using dispel with the scrolls you are sacrificing money. On Latona it wouldn't be charged, which means you can use it without any worries.
Yeah, because 67 gold per charge really hurts.
Quote: With 3 charges it can be quite worthwile, especially if the imbaboots speed boost is dispellable. I don't know if it is, though.
It certainly is 3 charges right now, and nooK has given no indication that this will change, so I don't see a need to discuss it as if it had anything other than 3 charges.
I honestly have never tried that either, but I assume it would.
Quote: About SK: It was more during mid game when reincarnation saved me, not during the big team battle phase. Going with someone to kill some enemy hero, then going back to some lane to push a little. Trying to leech some HP back, then getting attacked by one or two heros.
I certainly would never attack an SK (in a gank or otherwise) if I were not confident of killing him twice in a very short amount of time. Perhaps your opponents were noobs.
Quote: Also, as you said, one of the aspects of having reincarnation is that it makes you less of a target. The gameplay and psychological aspects of having reincarnation is what makes it hard to balance, not just the obvious use of saving ones ass.
You might as well argue that Nine-Headed Dragon is hard to balance because it gives you more HP, making you less of a target, or that the Katana is hard to balance, giving you more damage and making you more of a target.
Quote: 1. Chasing and sieging, you can be much more agressive if you know that even if you get killed, it doesn't really matter much.
2. Double life bar and a free mana refill when you most need it.
3. Getting targeted less, adding even more of a survival boost to a skill which already makes you survive dying.
4. And really least important IMO: more of a chance of surviving ganks or surprise attacks in unfortunate moments.
. . . .
I dunno man, what were you expecting? You pretty much just listed all the reasons why someone would want to buy the item in the first place. It is exactly what you are paying good money for. I don't see what about that is hard to balance at all.
Quote: The stuff involving suiciding (or accepting the possiblity of an action being suicide) are not really an issue with SK, because even tanks like SK die quite quickly when focused on.
I am not sure what you are driving at, but perhaps you overlook the fact that if a tank gets focused on first and dies, it means he has done his job.
Quote: But in SL, where hero killing is pretty hard, and getting away is pretty easy, reincarnation is a very very powerful tool to have.
nooK has indicated that this will change somewhat in the next version, with higher hero damage all around. Of course, it remains to be seen how much effect this will really have.
Quote: Giving a skill which is usually an ultimate as item ability is always problematic.
It's not appropriate to make this comparison here, as Reincarnation is not an ultimate in SL; in fact it is not currently in SL at all. The balance in any custom map is determined by the relative strength of a thing to other things in that custom map, not the relative strength of a thing to a similar thing that exists in what is essentially a whole other game.
Besides, Radiance, Dagon and Diffusal Blade give watered down versions of other skills that exist as ultimates in DotA, yet I am not aware that there have been any great difficulties in balancing them.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 08.06.2006, 10:26
Yes, please take in mind that there are several changes (terrain, allowing backstabbing, higher base damage, more damage for sha techique, more speed up for airy charge-> ronin`s abilities will need a higher mana cost, else he will be imba) which will allow to kill heroes more quickly.
Also I will always try to make the best items, like Zanbato and Jadeblade a bit too expensive, a good team will always go for shrines or other items instead of buying such items.
Don`t know if I mentioned already, Ring of Regeneration will give 2 extra hp/s, and Ring of Life 4 hp/s.in the next version, just a sidenote.
Re: Item Balance
Galefury - 08.06.2006, 11:09
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Galefury: Quote: Were talking about Latona, right? It has an int bonus, which needs to be taken into consideration.
No, it does not. We are not 'talking about Latona'; we are talking about what active ability would be a good fit for Latona's status as an Int item.
What did I just say? And what did you just say? The same damn thing. Quit misreading what I'm writing.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: Also remember, by using dispel with the scrolls you are sacrificing money. On Latona it wouldn't be charged, which means you can use it without any worries.
Yeah, because 67 gold per charge really hurts.
It drains money quickly when spammed.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: With 3 charges it can be quite worthwile, especially if the imbaboots speed boost is dispellable. I don't know if it is, though.
It certainly is 3 charges right now, and nooK has given no indication that this will change, so I don't see a need to discuss it as if it had anything other than 3 charges.
I honestly have never tried that either, but I assume it would.
I was explaining why I thought the item was useless and never bought it, not saying it should have only one charge or something.In fact said that it was a good item with 3 charges, and could be quite useful. If speedboost is dispellable depends on what it's based on. Might be, might not be. Should be, though.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: About SK: It was more during mid game when reincarnation saved me, not during the big team battle phase. Going with someone to kill some enemy hero, then going back to some lane to push a little. Trying to leech some HP back, then getting attacked by one or two heros.
I certainly would never attack an SK (in a gank or otherwise) if I were not confident of killing him twice in a very short amount of time. Perhaps your opponents were noobs.
They were somewhat nooby, yes. Like me.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: Also, as you said, one of the aspects of having reincarnation is that it makes you less of a target. The gameplay and psychological aspects of having reincarnation is what makes it hard to balance, not just the obvious use of saving ones ass.
You might as well argue that Nine-Headed Dragon is hard to balance because it gives you more HP, making you less of a target, or that the Katana is hard to balance, giving you more damage and making you more of a target.
If you read the list below, Reincarnation has 4 powerful effects. The items you mentioned are much less overloaded.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: 1. Chasing and sieging, you can be much more agressive if you know that even if you get killed, it doesn't really matter much.
2. Double life bar and a free mana refill when you most need it.
3. Getting targeted less, adding even more of a survival boost to a skill which already makes you survive dying.
4. And really least important IMO: more of a chance of surviving ganks or surprise attacks in unfortunate moments.
. . . .
I dunno man, what were you expecting? You pretty much just listed all the reasons why someone would want to buy the item in the first place. It is exactly what you are paying good money for. I don't see what about that is hard to balance at all.
Yes, there are 4 very powerful effects, which all need to be considered when setting the money cost, and which can easily be under- or overestimated. If it is added it should definitely have a very high honor cost, like about 15 (for the recipe, not in total). That means that if you can buy it, you're winning anyway, which would be ok imo.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: The stuff involving suiciding (or accepting the possiblity of an action being suicide) are not really an issue with SK, because even tanks like SK die quite quickly when focused on.
I am not sure what you are driving at, but perhaps you overlook the fact that if a tank gets focused on first and dies, it means he has done his job.
Quit misinterpreting my posts please kthx? This was just meant as a counterexample to the slow hero killing in SL. If you will die 90% of the times you suicide with Reinc (like in dota), uses of reincarnation 1 and the double life bar aspect of 2 are pretty much gone, because yes, in dota it is usually true that if they could take down one lifebar they will take down the second one. Also, suiciding is not necessarily something you would do early in the battle and get killed first for. It's more of a last resort issue, which makes what you said even less related to anything I wrote in my whole post.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: But in SL, where hero killing is pretty hard, and getting away is pretty easy, reincarnation is a very very powerful tool to have.
nooK has indicated that this will change somewhat in the next version, with higher hero damage all around. Of course, it remains to be seen how much effect this will really have.
Well yes. No disagreement here, but I doubt hero-killing will become as easy as in dota.
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Quote: Giving a skill which is usually an ultimate as item ability is always problematic.
It's not appropriate to make this comparison here, as Reincarnation is not an ultimate in SL; in fact it is not currently in SL at all. The balance in any custom map is determined by the relative strength of a thing to other things in that custom map, not the relative strength of a thing to a similar thing that exists in what is essentially a whole other game.
Besides, Radiance, Dagon and Diffusal Blade give watered down versions of other skills that exist as ultimates in DotA, yet I am not aware that there have been any great difficulties in balancing them.
Finger of death and Reincarnation are ultimates on a totally different level. Finger of death is quite similar to any normal nuke, just with higher damage. Reincarnation is a totally different thing than any other skill in the game. Feedback and Purge are both skills of normal units btw, so I don't get where you're coming from with that Diffusal Blade. Actually I know no AOS where reincarnation in its original form, as on the spot revival, is anything other than an ultimate. Now I'm sure if you look long enough you can find one, but I have never played one.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 08.06.2006, 16:04
nooK: Quote: Yes, please take in mind that there are several changes (terrain, allowing backstabbing, higher base damage, more damage for sha techique, more speed up for airy charge-> ronin`s abilities will need a higher mana cost, else he will be imba) which will allow to kill heroes more quickly.
Cool, but I hope you will not increase the mana cost by too much. He is quite underpowered now, and I doubt turning one weak skill into a useful skill will push him all the way to the other end of the spectrum.
Quote: Also I will always try to make the best items, like Zanbato and Jadeblade a bit too expensive, a good team will always go for shrines or other items instead of buying such items.
1) Zanbato is already crazy expensive.
2) Isn't this a little extreme? The idea is to make every item cost just the right amount for the benefits they give, not make them so overpriced no good player would ever buy them. . . .
Quote: Don`t know if I mentioned already, Ring of Regeneration will give 2 extra hp/s, and Ring of Life 4 hp/s.in the next version, just a sidenote.
Good idea.
Galefury: Quote: What did I just say? And what did you just say? The same damn thing. Quit misreading what I'm writing.
You said: You have to consider Latona's Int bonus when assessing the usefulness of Dispel.
I said: You should not consider Latona's Int bonus when assessing the usefulness of Dispel; instead you should consider the usefulness of Dispel on an item intended for Int heroes.
The same thing? Whatever, man.
Quote: It drains money quickly when spammed.
Says the guy who has never used it in his life.
Quote: I was explaining why I thought the item was useless and never bought it, not saying it should have only one charge or something.In fact said that it was a good item with 3 charges, and could be quite useful. If speedboost is dispellable depends on what it's based on. Might be, might not be. Should be, though.
I am far from interested in your opinions on whether or not a purely theoretical 1 charge Scroll of Negation, which no one has proposed, would be worth buying. My point was that giving Dispel to a rather expensive permanent item would be underpowered when you can already obtain Dispel at a mere 67 gold per charge. Save your rebuttals which are no rebuttals at all.
Quote: If you read the list below, Reincarnation has 4 powerful effects. The items you mentioned are much less overloaded.
They are, at the moment, also much less expensive. Zanbato costs a total of 7000 gold and 14 honour, while a Nine-Headed Dragon costs 4000 gold, 6 honour, and Katana costs only 2500 gold.
Besides, you are once again dodging the point. No one disagrees that Reincarnation is a more powerful ability than 30% Lifesteal (usually) or +15 damage. That, however, is not what you claimed. You claimed that an item that gives Reincarnation is hard to balance, i.e., inherently problematic. You give no proof of this. There is plenty of proof to the contrary, however, scattered across half a dozen custom maps and WC3 itself.
Quote: Yes, there are 4 very powerful effects, which all need to be considered when setting the money cost, and which can easily be under- or overestimated.
Easily under- or over-estimated by who? To anyone who is even semi-proficient in any AOS, the 4 reasons you listed should have been obvious beyond belief and did not even require listing. When I read them, I certainly wondered that you bothered to type them out. I am sure nooK is just as aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Reincarnation as I am.
Quote: If it is added it should definitely have a very high honor cost, like about 15 (for the recipe, not in total). That means that if you can buy it, you're winning anyway, which would be ok imo.
Great, let's put in items that have no earthly use at all. You're a genius.
Quote: Quit misinterpreting my posts please kthx?
Quit throwing out red herrings and contradicting yourself and perhaps I will be able to do so.
Quote: This was just meant as a counterexample to the slow hero killing in SL. If you will die 90% of the times you suicide with Reinc (like in dota), uses of reincarnation 1 and the double life bar aspect of 2 are pretty much gone, because yes, in dota it is usually true that if they could take down one lifebar they will take down the second one.
You are being disingenuous. You said, 'I used SK 2 or 3 times, and reinc saved me a few times. More often than not actually. Either because help arrived, or because I only got killed because my HP were low at the time.' Clearly you intended this to support your argument that on-the-spot Reincarnation is too powerful, not as a counter-example at all. I was the one who pointed out that this would not be the case if your opponents were half decent, in which case they would never set out to kill you if they were not confident of killing you twice. You seemed somewhat surprised to hear this at the time; now you are pretending that this was your point all along. Quit it.
Quote: Also, suiciding is not necessarily something you would do early in the battle and get killed first for. It's more of a last resort issue, which makes what you said even less related to anything I wrote in my whole post.
Clearly you haven't the foggiest idea how to play DotA. Suiciding is not a last resort if you are using a Strength hero (or someone like Medusa) and you go for a tank build; it is the first resort. Tanks exist to trick or force the enemy into attacking them rather than the Agi heroes or Int heroes who are there to deal the real damage. Simple as that.
Please do not speak of things you know nothing about.
Quote: Well yes. No disagreement here, but I doubt hero-killing will become as easy as in dota.
Probably not, but I think three heroes should be up to the task of killing a single enemy straggler twice.
Quote: Finger of death and Reincarnation are ultimates on a totally different level. Finger of death is quite similar to any normal nuke, just with higher damage. Reincarnation is a totally different thing than any other skill in the game.
I'm sorry I interpreted 'Giving a skill which is usually an ultimate as item ability is always problematic' to mean 'Giving a skill which is usually an ultimate as item ability is always problematic'. It seems that some part of your thought has lost its way in the process of making the journery from your head to the screen, as is so often the case.
Quote: Feedback and Purge are both skills of normal units btw, so I don't get where you're coming from with that Diffusal Blade.
Purge is Medusa's ulti, as I'm sure you know already, being something of an authority on DotA (right?).
Quote: Actually I know no AOS where reincarnation in its original form, as on the spot revival, is anything other than an ultimate. Now I'm sure if you look long enough you can find one, but I have never played one.
You don't need to look for an AOS. Ankh of Reincarnation exists in plain old WC3. Plus, it doesn't matter what Reincarnation is on other maps. This is not one of those other maps. You need to assess its strength relative to the balance of SL.
Most importantly, you seem entirely unable to grasp the idea that on-the-spot Reincarnation is inferior to Reincarnation that teleports you to base. On-the-spot Reincarnation is easy to counter; Aegis-style Reincarnation cannot be countered (except by killing the hero repeatedly in a series of different encounters, and that is so only because Aegis is currently a charged item). On-the-spot Reincarnation is easier to balance, not harder.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 09.06.2006, 12:41
Stop flamming each other, this discussion is useless.
Reincarnation will be in for Zanbato, leave the balancing to me :P
Re: Item Balance
Galefury - 09.06.2006, 17:20
Stop flaming? Actually I haven't even started. But oh well, I will not start flaming then I guess.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 11.06.2006, 20:38
Okay, there is no way I can not raise (pun intended) this point after the game we had: Scroll of Ghosts is OMGWTFBBQ imba. Summoned ghosts should not be invulnerable. No way. They can be buffed in other ways--most simply, having a significantly reduced scroll price. I think SoG would remain a very good item if it cost 400 and had no invulnerability.
For the curious, the incident I'm refering to was one where I was at full HP, standing in the middle of a bunch of slain enemies, and nooK used Scroll of Ghosts, surrounding and killing me while I watched helplessly. Of course it is skill or luck that allowed him to surround me, but it was ridiculous that I could do absolutely nothing about it once it happened. I imagine this is also why they are soooo good at pushing; I have used them to break bases before, but somehow I never noticed that they were invulnerable. . . .
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 12.06.2006, 01:15
Nah, was such nice imba action ;)
Wonīt be invulnerable next version + price is reduced to 500 gold.
Re: Item Balance
roxas_kh2 - 13.06.2006, 12:10
tegeus-Cromis wrote: That's a novel idea, one I hadn't thought of. I like it. :D Let me check if I understand you correctly, though. Basically, the old health and mana pots will be replaced by DotA-style, regen-over-time health and mana pots, but instand health and mana pots (with more impressive names, I take it :P) will be available once you build a Shrine of Merchants? That's great. I assume you will continue to be able to get free regen-over-time health and mana pots from the Shrine.
You haven't addressed the issue of stacking, though. Let consumables stack into a single slot! Pretty please? :cry:
On another note, while you're introducing new (non-consumable) items to the game, perhaps some of them could find a home in the Shrine of Merchants? A good item (or upgrader) or two that can only be bought from the Shrine of Merchants would make players really have to think when choosing between Shrines, not to mention increasing the 'legendary' appeal of those items.
i agree but getting honour just takes too long!!! and becaue of the healing pots now, it impossible to get honour.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 20.06.2006, 21:29
Should the new pots (3 charges each) have a cooldown?
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 21.06.2006, 07:19
I guess. It is usual for such pots to have a cooldown, but on the other hand, I don't see any real balance issue in not giving them a cooldown (aside from maybe using another charge while the previous one is still in effect, wasting part of the heal? Caveat emptor, I guess), provided the rejuvenation effect takes place over a long enough time.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 23.06.2006, 13:19
Cooldown would add more tactics, you use pot, enemy manages to hit you -> pot wasted, waiting for cooldown.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 23.06.2006, 14:41
Not a big deal either way, IMHO. Whatever you like. :P
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 23.06.2006, 14:44
Made two 10 sec cooldowns on both pots. But they donīt share the same cooldown.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 17.08.2006, 17:52
I unno about this, just tossing it out there. Slow-poison? lol. It could really help a lot. Take kobun change it to slow-poison and up the price, or have an upgrade to the kobun w/ increased dmg and slow poison. Just my suggestions. I unno if its balencing or not, but I heard someone say kobun is useless late game(I disagree Although i do think it's value is decreased late game) and it's hard to get hero kills(which i also disagree with but we can't all be 1337 can we? :D ) so slow would help with that too
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 03.09.2006, 13:42
Hello again,
I apologise if this has already been discussed above (Those posts are HUGE) so i will keep it brief.
Having played the 0.8 beta i feel that Zanbato's reincarnation is not a good idea. I believe that the map Samurai Legends would be ruined by putting reincarnation in.
It takes away from two heros fighting a fantastic battle to the death only to JUST win and still have to run away cause they're about to reincarnate. It defeats the purpose of being the victor, whats the point of defeating your opponent if you must still run away and not be able to continue the path to their base and victory?
I dont think theres anyway you could really balance reincarnation, alot of people are not going to like it.
It would also make a very good player even more powerful and since Samurai Legends is still a new map and its hard to get newbies to stay in a game as it is, i dont think this will turn out well.
Thank you for listening to my thoughts.
Samurai Legends for the win! Gracias aimgos.
Re: Item Balance
Omerta - 03.09.2006, 14:08
I don't like Zanbato much either, but it's reincarnation is somewhat evened out by the huge cost to make it.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 03.09.2006, 14:16
Hola,
I realise Zanbato costs ALOT. But a player that would be able to amass that much honour and gold would have to be very, very skilled. Or have alot of teamwork, two qualities that already make a very powerful team, but giving them reincarnation i think tips the balance and ruins the "honour" if you will, of the game.
But I will respect any decision of nooK and others who help decide how the map goes.
I will just have to get good enough to kill a enemy outright TWICE :P
Gracias, Mac
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 03.09.2006, 14:30
Look at the cost! 7000 gold +honor is really much.
Also the cooldown is very high (240 sec in B10, it will be 300sec in B11), so 5 minutes cooldown...
Also you can just gather around where the hero died and kill him easily a second time if there are some heroes around.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 03.09.2006, 15:30
To be honest, I die less than once every 5 minutes. Much less.
When I had Zanbato, I never died again. Not properly, anyway.
Is it possible to change the reincarnation so that the bearer comes back with full life, but only 1/4 mana? Or half health, half mana? Or some other variant?
The fun that it takes away from the enemy team is mostly due to the fact that you come back lean, mean, fully healed and ready to go. After a battle where most people are injured and depleted, a fully refreshed Ronin or Ninja (Or just about any other hero, actually) can easily take down an enemy hero. If they're good enough to have the honour for Zanbato? Make that 2-3 kills.
Perhaps I'm being a bit extreme in my illustration, but yeah - to make the res balanced, perhaps the player upon resurrecting needs to visit the fountain again to be truly useful. I'm quite liking the full health/one quarter mana idea.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 03.09.2006, 23:25
Been a while since you talked with Cromis about altering or removing anti magic potion. Anyway ever considered making anti magic potion work like a 1 shot spell shield instead of anti magic shield? I'm well aware of its origin from ToB and that its easily dispelled. But still, I do see Cromis point. Especially vs. all the pubbies who don't know that it can be dispelled, it's slightly imba. A 1 shot spell shield would only protect you from a single targeting spell such as Kaze or Teppo, while still making you vulnerable to spells like Flying Death. Just a suggestion to back up cromis abit, but personally I am used to and very familiar with the existing anti magic potion, also quite satisfied with it.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 03.09.2006, 23:36
As far as I know cromis never suggested a change for the anti magic potion. His suggestion was for Shikigami, the new "block" spell.
And unless ToB, anti magic potions only work for 15 sec at a cost of 90gold. I think it`s fine.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 03.09.2006, 23:42
Actually he did, long ago. Tegeus-Cromis: Quote: You might also consider removing/altering some of them; Anti-Magic Potion, for instance, I consider inherently problematic due to the incredible power of one-button magic immunity. Look at the problems balancing BKB in DotA. Why not turn it into a Scroll of Silence instead? Same purpose (preventing people from casting spells at you), more skill required to use it well. More interesting, and I don't think there would be a balance problem stacking that.
It was written on the very first page of this topic so I'm not surprised you didn't remember it.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 04.09.2006, 06:00
Me again :P
Still about Zanbato, lol. 7k isnt THAT hard to get, in most games i give Lyncor about 1k in the first 15-20 mins, and thats BEFORE we get our many shrines of wealth :wink:
I think Lyncor is onto something with the modified HP/Mana idea.
Though i disagree with his full health 1/4 mana idea. After an all out hero brawl or a amazing one on one both/all the heros would have used almost all their mana, difference being the victor would be at (Most likely) very low health. If the hero ressurects he basically gets a full heal and can keep pushing ahead.
The point of killing a hero is so you can have a period of time where the enemy is down a hero (and just so you can say you owned him, hehe) But the item eliminates that.
The only way res would be fair if the only thing you could gain from it was a 50/50 chance you'd get a second chance to run home and survive. You shouldnt come back with full life cause it's almost a sure thing you'll get home or even be able to just continue down the lane.
As most veteran SL players would most likely agree, half health is when you start thinking "Oh shit, i should maybe think about running" So, why not make Zanbato bring you back with enough mana to use like one skill (for the purpose of getting the hell outta there) and half health so you have a chance (Not a 100% one) to run home and avoid the respawn time.
In my opinion i believe that would be fair.
I thank you for listening to my opinion and in no way wish to cause frustration with my constant badgering :wink:
We all rock and everyone is cool :D
Samurai Legends for the win!
Mac.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 04.09.2006, 14:33
So half health and 1/4 mana? That sounds pretty fair.
Zanbato will still be uber, believe me. Just having that extra health/mana is plenty worth the 7k, and honour.
...plus, it DOES add +10 to all stats. That's just groovy.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 05.09.2006, 16:49
1/2 health is too little, and 1/4 mana is badly calibrated. I would suggest 2/3 health and a fixed amount of mana, pegged to the highest mana cost stun/escape skill in SL.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 05.09.2006, 17:03
Detectin reincarnation is kinda tricky. 600sec cooldown for B11 :P
Re: Item Balance
Omerta - 05.09.2006, 17:04
tegeus-Cromis wrote: 1/2 health is too little, and 1/4 mana is badly calibrated. I would suggest 2/3 health and a fixed amount of mana, pegged to the highest mana cost stun/escape skill in SL.
Seems good in my opinion, but I think I'd also increase the honor cost a bit.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 05.09.2006, 23:59
I personally disagree. I feel that if you're in a situation when you recarnate and 1/2th health and 1/4th mana isn't going to get you out of it, then you shouldn't be able to get out of it. Recarn shouldn't be a way to avoid death when being ganked by a bunch of people, it should be more of a useful thing that let's you risk your neck a bit more. More so when you think of how that +10 to every stat gives you 250 more health and I believe 150 mana (Might be wrong on the mana.)
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 06.09.2006, 11:40
If a hero reincarnating with 2/3 HP and enough mana for one spell is able to escape a three-man gank, I think that would indicate that heroes are still not lethal enough, not that reincarnation is too good.
Please don't bring the +10 to all stats into the equation. Each point of those stats was already obtained at an obscene gold and honour cost; none of it comes from the Zanbato recipe.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 06.09.2006, 12:18
...
Im siding with Skirn on this one, i think he hit the nail right on the head
Quote: Skirn:
I feel that if you're in a situation when you recarnate and 1/2th health and 1/4th mana isn't going to get you out of it, then you shouldn't be able to get out of it. Recarn shouldn't be a way to avoid death
It shouldnt matter how lethal the enemy heros are, because we all play the game. And we all know that at the end of a huge battle or one on one, you are ususally out of mana.
So even if you sit there waiting for the hero to res, if you're waiting by yourself you will most likely have less than 2/3 hp and 1/4 mana and would lose when he ressurects. And if you had a few heros waiting, they would most likely be damaged and also fighting off creep so when the hero ressurected *bang* he uses his escape skill and just runs off happily while the injured enemy heros cannot chase cause they're too damaged and cant use skills cause they're depleted.
All of us know, its half hp or under that we usually run from a situation that is dangerous. We shouldnt be encouraging continued assault of the enemy once you ressurect, the only thing you should be able to do after ressurecting is run and heal and be happy you deprived the enemy of 6 honour and putting your team down a hero for a minute or two.
We have a fantastic quality map here, res is a very dangerous aspect to add without causing too much friction. And especially as we're still trying to make it huge, on USEast anyway.
Just a few thoughts..
Thanks for listening,
Mac.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 06.09.2006, 16:53
Max hp can be increased with bonus str. How much would be maximum possibility to increase str and via that hp with items that give bonus str? Thinking about something like a Yari with alot of str->hp and ressurection could become very strong, but there's also the thing that no one who has any skills or brains will waste very much gold on str boosting items. That sounds reasonable. Adding reincarnation is not a bad idea, as long as it has it's limits. 2/3 Hp upon reincarnation? don't know. Maybe I would go for 1/2.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 07.09.2006, 06:55
Perhaps not a fraction of HP, but instead a fixed amount?
Enough that wont be killed by a normal skill but not enough to survive an ultimate?
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 07.09.2006, 08:26
Reincarnation that doesn't even give you enough HP to survive one ultimate (Kaze = GG??) or two normal skills is worthless. Instead, a percentage-based amount of health plus a cap to how much that can be would be better, if indeed such a thing is necessary.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 07.09.2006, 16:04
Perhaps being revived with around 750 health and 200 mana would be good.
Reasons:
-750 health is enough to escape with, in that it will survive an ultimate being used. However, in most cases, it is well within the 'run away' point - or close enough to it. A well-coordinated assault with at least 2 heroes will still be able to take down the reincarnated hero, provided they have plenty of mana left. However, most of the time when you kill a hero, your skills are cooling down and your mana reserves are low. Therein lies a bit of the balance to my thinking - you're not likely to be hit with 2 ultimates, as they were probably used to kill you. The attackers will have to use their mastery of smaller skills, with perhaps a single saved-up ultimate, to kill the reincarnated hero.
Besides, having to use a bit of skill to get away adds more teamplay to it. Ever thought of yelling to your team "Quick, I'm gonna revive - cover my escape!"? Good players can cover other players with most heroes.
At the same time, if the reincarnated hero stays and tries to 'own' with only 750 health, chances are they won't get too far. Another reason for this is...
-200 mana. This is enough for 2-3 smaller skills, or one ultimate (150) and a low mana cost skill. It's enough to run away with, provided you're decent with your character, but it's not enough to stay and 'own' with. Keep in mind that you might still have your boots, antimagic potions, healing potions, mana potions or other such 'escape' items available!
In terms of the cooldown on the item... if the change I'm proposing is put into place, I would suggest a cooldown of 5 mins (300 sec). The reason for this is that having the 750/200 revive would make getting away upon reincarnation more difficult, and thus sometimes you might die anyway against a well-coordinated enemy assault without allied backup. Plus, the 'I can resurrect and kill you all, 'cause I'm fresh out of the fountain!' aspect is gone.
Another thing to remember - you still get +10 stats. That's frakking cool, even without reincarnation. Heck, I'd pay the 7k/10 honour for the recincarnation alone - having that passive bonus makes the item plain badass. 8)
Re: Item Balance
hanzel2m - 06.12.2006, 08:08
well I have got some ideas for the items
idk if this has been said, coz I didn't scroll through 6 pages of ideas xD
anyways, as for items, they are a bit too weak imo, you should have an item that will increase the stats slightly higher, because it's kidna hard to buy stuff, a 1200 gold only gets you 7 Agi???
cmon, that much gold will give you better items in DotA
and as for Honour points, I actually hate this thing :p
and I think they are quite hard to acquire :(
because you can only get them by Killing towers and buildings, or Killing heros
But you decided not to make an Ai version, then how can we acquire it quicker??
so My suggestion is to try these several things
maybe give 2 honor pts each time you get 50 kills?
or give 2 honor pts if you level up?
and the iems are quite hard to get because of these honor points
you should make the price cheaper or make the weapons need less honor pts
because the creeps also give less money too, which makes it quite hard to do things
thanks :D
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 06.12.2006, 10:48
Quote: cmon, that much gold will give you better items in DotA
Who cares? They are different maps. SL isn't meant to be as item/farming driven as DotA is.
Quote: and as for Honour points, I actually hate this thing :p
and I think they are quite hard to acquire
because you can only get them by Killing towers and buildings, or Killing heros
If you aren't killing heroes and you aren't killing towers, what the hell are you doing? This is an AOS, you know.
Quote: But you decided not to make an Ai version, then how can we acquire it quicker??
l2pkthx
Re: Item Balance
Omerta - 06.12.2006, 11:58
hanzel2m wrote:
and as for Honour points, I actually hate this thing :p
and I think they are quite hard to acquire :(
because you can only get them by Killing towers and buildings, or Killing heros
But you decided not to make an Ai version, then how can we acquire it quicker??
so My suggestion is to try these several things
maybe give 2 honor pts each time you get 50 kills?
or give 2 honor pts if you level up?
- Skilled players don't have trouble gathering honor which means that things are fine. Play more and try to improve your skills. (or if you play single player, change to multiplayer. Map isn't meant for playing alone)
- If I remember right, Kouenzan or Aray had suggested getting honor from spawn kills.
Getting honor from level up wouldn't work. If the honor that was gained by whole team was summed up, it would be far too much. One honor per every 5 levels, for example, might work but I still don't really support it atm.
Re: Item Balance
hanzel2m - 06.12.2006, 21:17
well I just want to ask this, Why did Nook Decided not to make the AI version?
I mean well Multiplayer, Lots of my friends don't want to play, since the game is on it's early stage.
well I just played it again, and I found this item, that increases your damage by 15, and str and agi by 5 and atk speed by !0%
idk what that item is called xD
but it cost 3500 and 10 Honor pts???
Isn't that a bit too expensive?? In DotA you get Sacred Relic, which incerases your dmg by 60 -____-
Cmon, don't you think that item is a waste, you even need 10 honor pts T_T
I know that they are a totally diffeernt map, but We need to get the item Balanced, because, it's kinda impossible to get your dmg +100
I also noticed this, it's harder killing the towers here, even when I'm level 20, maybe it's because the items, they don't give as much stats
Armor.. I think the armors are too high, or no? I never atcually see the armor in DotA, but I think Ronin's Armor could get up to 18 in here if i'm not wrong, but for some strange reason, it's still quite easy to get our hp reduced, idk if the creeps have higher attacks here?
I am Killing towes, but the towers are already quite hard to destory, and I just notice this, I think the creeps spawns just too fast, which makes it hard to kill a tower because they all are attacking that tower at the same time, while in DotA, I think it's easier to destory the towers, idk why
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 07.12.2006, 04:33
Please think, and learn the game, before posting.
Re: Item Balance
hanzel2m - 07.12.2006, 05:32
Idid think, and already learn it :p
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 07.12.2006, 12:29
Wow, I haven't flamed in a long time, but this time there is really no other way to say it:
Dude, STFU.
You only play SINGLE-PLAYER. No, you have NOT learned the map, and will not learn it in a million years playing an AOS SINGLE-PLAYER. Use some commonfuckingsense, please, and choose one of the following options:
1) Continue playing SL single-player and stop posting on the forums.
2) Switch to a map that actually makes sense to play single-player, and stop posting on the forums.
3) Play SL as it is actually meant to be played. Come back and post after.
What you're doing now is just a waste of your time and ours, and gives DotA an unjustified bad name. (Do you play that single-player, too? It is to laff.)
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 08.12.2006, 01:16
And umm, this isn't an item based game...items are only minor boosts to give you a slight upper hand agaist some1 of the same skill. And if your good enough the items are extremely effective, and if you play multi like AoS's are suposed to be played you get more than enough resourses.
and one more thing....EH-HEM...
THIS IS NOT DOTA!!!
so please don't compare them...thank you
Re: Item Balance
Reaper - 13.01.2007, 17:15
I'm sorry, it's 4am here and I was just browsing over the forum and I came across this. I haven't laughed so hard in a while... I mean, that really got me going there. I have to hand it to you, that is some amusing stuff right there.
Oh and can I just say: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 14.01.2007, 11:06
My god.. i knew that hansel guy had started saying really stupid stuff. But i never came back and saw the rest of this..
*is full of shock and marvels at the stupidy that is evident in humanity*
...
....
.....
I just dont believe it..
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 17.01.2007, 02:28
We really should make my Not DotA post sticky ;) lol
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 18.01.2007, 04:37
you no what realy iritates me about this. that established forum members come on and "flame" some silly pub/nubie (not noob, theres IS a diference) that may have played SL a small amount of times, for sayign somethign we find sily and inpractical, because they dont no ney better. i see this in soooooo many threeds and it realy makes me sad. someone recomends somthgin silly that would change this game and imidately the get "flamed" and told to get stufed or other nice things. and yes i no the things they say are anoying but god dam why are we always puting down the new ppl that dont no eny better. have you ever thowt it mite be more productive to try and explan to them in a positive way that this map is diferent from all otheres out there and requires more than just : farming, grabing all the awsum uber items then killing everything by your self (like in so many other games). also we where all new to this map once, i can remember back in the 0.7 days when no one new how to play yari and not suck, but that was a while ago. and basicly what im tryign to say is we need to nurture the new talent that is coming to SL not "flame" it when they say silly/ stupid things, and maybe just be civil with each other
to all you new to the forums: this map requires team work, skillful use of abilitys and development of stratergys. there is no one way to win SL. there is no 1 bild that wins everythign at SL. every charictor works in adiferent way and has diferent strenghths and wecknesses and can be palyed in diferent ways. items and items costs are iralivent to good players and the cost of items and what they give can not be compaired to othere maps. this map is diferent, we like it and if you dont like it then why are you plzaying it? :)
p.s. i made shure i had read all the forums before i started posting and i dont post often because most of the time i dont fell i need to repeat what my clan members have already said.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 01.02.2007, 17:37
Oh,i hope i dont get in trouble for this.
The reincarnation sword(As most players who played this game already proly know)has a glitch where u drop it and pick it back up and its refreshed :D
I was just wondering is nook gona fix that?
I wont lie i have won games that way but never when the situation was hopeless only when i needed to speed up the process for some reason :P
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 02.02.2007, 00:27
:o this is a major expolt if you can do that. i personly think that reincarnation is to powerfull on this map, and needs to be something elce. and if this is so you hav no reson 2 die if you expolyt this.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 02.02.2007, 01:44
I never did think that blade fit anyway. Reincarnation on this map is just too good. And especially with that bug >.< We need something to replace reincarn. Like...A fire breath? Or avatar?
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 02.02.2007, 02:34
Dunno what you are talking bout fire breath,but avatar actualy sounds cool.As an a blade that gives you strength to fight on however you can still chase down a hero and eventualy kill him :lol:
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 02.02.2007, 15:31
Dudes... :shock: ...slam avatar blade on Yari: let me spell it out I-M-B-A.
Even more max hp, bonus damage and to top it all off...MAGIC IMMUNITY. Damn if thats not imba then nothing is.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 02.02.2007, 16:14
u can remove spell immune, or turn into spell resist. then again, you always can just make the blade the slightly weaker combanation of the other blades (and 3 less stats of each and still have thir abilities)
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 02.02.2007, 16:47
Wow good point bout yari.But i was thinking just add extra health just like yaris special.No spell imunity,it would basicly be a life savior....maybe add alitle armor to :D
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 02.02.2007, 20:36
Oh thanks for finding this exploit wizard, thanks a lot :)
Zanbato will be undroppable next version.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 03.02.2007, 02:11
no problem personaly i used it once when i discovered it and we were winning so i just used it to speed up the process:P
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 03.02.2007, 03:24
The reincarnation on Zanbato is still the most imba thing in the game by a long streak. It doesn't fit, in the slightest.
Why not change it to activatible antimagic? Antimagic RULES, so it's worth it on the ultimate weapon. It means you get +10 to all stats, which is pure uber in itself, as well as the ability to hit antimagic as if you had a potion. Make sure that it shares a cooldown with the antimagic pots, so that you can't get 20sec of straight antimagic, 'cause that would just be stupid. The cooldown should be about 60 seconds, I reckon. That's about once per fight.
The imba of Zanbato is so bad that I've often considered having a policy of 'Don't buy Zanbato or I'll custom kick'. Yes, you can get antimagic on a potion, but does a potion give you +10 to all stats? No, it does not.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 03.02.2007, 14:59
I like the anti magic idea,it would save u the space for other items or the money for more important things.But i think it should be customized as an avatar maybe taking away everything but anti magic.Making hero biger would defenatly let people notice that he just got tougher and it would distinquish between the anti magic pot so people know that the person is not using the anti magic pot.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 03.02.2007, 17:56
10 second long avatar with no other buffs but the antimagic?
As long as it shares a cooldown with the antimagic potion, I like it. It would definitely look cool :D
Gigantical Yari! AAAAGH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! XD
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 04.02.2007, 10:29
yeah that would be kewl xD And I sure as heck would run from that O.O
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 04.02.2007, 16:33
Ya it will share a cool down however it will last a bit longer then anti magic to give people who dont care for items that much more of a purpse to use it.
Another idea i have for this anti magic is that it cant be dispelled by the anti magic sword :D that way ul feel much safer using this shield then the other one.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 05.02.2007, 02:21
10 seconds is ages, dude. You don't want people to be able to antimagic for a whole fight - it's a counter, or escape ability. It's not a tank-up-so-I'm-unstoppable ability.
If you want the antimagic on Zanbato to be longer than on the potion, then decrease the duration of the potion a little.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 07.02.2007, 14:05
Finally, the imba-ness of Zanbato has been addressed, this solution is perfect. I hate the reincarnation so.. so very much.
nooK i hope you will consider this idea for it will make the map THAT much better than it already is, enough said.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 09.02.2007, 15:51
Great idea, but as a side-note, I would suggest creating an Avatar-like ability (spell immuntiy, increased size) with triggers rather than basing it on ladder Avatar. Ladder Avatar is notoriously buggy when used in custom maps.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 09.02.2007, 18:08
Fair enough. I just reckon the size change would be hillarious.
Imagine a mega-size Ronin jumping at you, or a Yumi walking up to strafe you with what looks like a handheld siege weapon. You'd pee your pants. :lol:
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 09.02.2007, 18:13
Itd be a fair warning that your opponent is on steroids and u proly dont want to mess with that.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 09.02.2007, 20:42
I still say spell immunity would be extremely powerful on a Yari. Too powerful. Making him bigger would scare me too though.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 10.02.2007, 04:42
Umm.. Forb.. it's not permanent, it's an active use thing - exactly the same as carrying around a whole lot of antimagic potions. Just that, in buying Zanbato, you get +10 stats as well.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 10.02.2007, 14:15
How long would this avatar/magic immunity last then? Already something like 10-15 seconds would make him insane with avatar+anti-magic potion+elixir of life+Oni+Battlerage. You just use all of those in a right order and he can do insane amounts of damage before he has to retreat even with a few heroes attacking him all the time.
More permanent than anti-magic potion. You can't dispel the magic immunity, like you can the anti-magic potion. NooK's choice.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 10.02.2007, 17:25
Umm.. if you'd been reading more carefully you'd see that my suggestion encompasses all that. But I'll restate :)
Zanbato:
+10 stats
Antimagic (Active):
Lasts 10 seconds, just like the antimagic potion. Shares a cooldown with the actual antimagic potion, so you can't use both one after the other. Cooldown is 60 seconds. However, instead of the animation for AMS, have it do the size-growth thing like Avatar.
Essentially, this item allows you to not need to carry AM potions around - and you'll be able to use it just about every fight that warrants it (60s isn't that long). Furthermore, you still get the +10 stats, which in SL is a godlike bonus from an item.
It's worth the money, definitely. In a long game, against skilled opponents, after maxing shrines, I usually get Seven Storms and Fujin - and carry around an antimagic potion. In such a long game, I might splurge on this new Zanbato to give me an extra edge and help turn the tide. Plus, I'll be able to un-ban the item again. :)
To note, if you -really- want to make the AMS on this better, don't increase the duration for Zanbato. Instead, halve the duration on the potion version - 5 seconds will still be plenty enough for the potion to be worth using. Heck, it's the first 2 seconds of use that matter the most anyway - just look at Shikigami.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 11.02.2007, 07:07
Lyncor just pwned your reading comprehension upside down. :P
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 13.03.2007, 01:09
i have two questions for nook:
is it true that there are plans for new items in the next version?
also is ti true that these items will give; thorns aura(on self) and armor, critical strike and damage, and 30% attack speed item?
please tell me this is a horrible horrible rumor....
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 13.03.2007, 06:16
I too would like to have these rumors crushed, i almost slapped the person who said there were gonna be items like that.
I just thought they were stupid, but ive heard more about this and ive become concerned.
I dont, wait, i KNOW that SL doesnt need:
-Blade Mail
-Hyperstone
-Buriza
(And just to save time for people who dont get the reference the items that are apparently going to be as Jeff stated, 30% Thorns on self, 30% Attack Speed and 10% Crit and damage bonus.)
Please reconsider.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 13.03.2007, 13:27
1) What's wrong with damage return? Msot damage is from spells anyway.
2) What's wrong with +attack speed? Maybe not 30% in a single item, but say 10-15%? If you object to that, you ought to object to Ninja-To, right?
3) What's wrong with 10% critical strike (which is almost nothing)? Shall we remove the Katana from the game as well?
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 13.03.2007, 16:06
Yes this "every new item is imba"-thing really annoys me too.
1) You say a 20% damage return is imba? So why does nobody use the immolation aura item?
damage return:
deals to a hero: (80-armor reduction) x 0.20 = ~ 12 dmg every second s = 12 dmg
deals to a spawn: (30-armor reduction) x 0.20 = ~ 5 dmg every second s = 5 dmg
INSANE damage and all these units have to attack you. Also most units attack once every 2s + only works on melee.
now, the immolation item:
deals to a hero: 10 dmg every second = 20 dmg
deals to a spawn: 10 dmg every second = 20 dmg
More damage and guess what? You donīt even have to be attacked by them.
2)Where is 20% or 30% attack speed imba? If you use all your slots for +as items you get a insane +80% attack speed. And you have no boots or potions then...
3)Where is a 10% chance to deal 1.5 damage imba? It means you deal additional 40-50 damage every 10th time you attack. WOW
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 13.03.2007, 16:50
With all this new items...if you rely on melee attacks(which is what you will use this set up for)and not on your spells your not gona get far(unles your yari or dachi...well maybe not new dachi).Not every item that comes out is imba.I think this new items are perfect nice job nook,just up the prices a bit.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 13.03.2007, 19:17
Good to see the man himself is not swayed by the constant cries of imba. Seriously, it will take a hell of a lot more than a couple of new DPS items for SL to stop being spell-based. Even DotA with its +75 damage ggweapons is dominated by spells; what makes you guys think 30% IAS will suddenly make Ronin weaksauce?
Oh, and I forgot to mention this earlier: SP, it's damn funny that you should use, as your examples, three of the worst, least-purchased (outside of pubs) items in DotA.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 13.03.2007, 21:19
All items seem fine to me. Including +30% atck speed. Just make it non-stackable.
I kinda agree with the tegeus:
- If Crypt Lord's Spiked Carapace is not imba, how can an armor of the same type be? Also nooK's comparison vs. the Immolation.
- +20-30% attack speed isn't bad. Ronin gains +100% with lvl 5 Poem. Even if someone can have full hp with +20-30%, how could it make such a big difference?
- 10% Crit strike with 1.5x, and you say "no"? That really isn't much...
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 13.03.2007, 21:55
1. These items are far more powerful than the current ones, in that they give huge % enhancements to your hero. And yes, tegeus, I -do- object to the 10% ninja tos. Always have.
2. Look at the bigger picture. Every time more and more powerful items are added, in a few months, these items will be used as examples of why powerful items are apparently ok and it will lead to even worse ones being put in. Adding these sorts of things is a step in what I firmly believe is the wrong direction for the map. Ask almost any skilled and knowledgeable AoS player why most of the AoS maps out there are crap, and they will tell you: The items are too powerful, usually favouring some heroes over others, and generally making the endgame scene more item (Or level, in the case of some) based than actually based on the player's skill.
The more you add this kind of stuff, the more you detract from the skill and tactical expertise of the players being the real influencer to hero battles and the game as a whole. There is a reason I like Samurai Legends instead of most other AoS maps. The more we head down this path of adding more, generically powerful items... the less I, and most of the players I know, will actually like the map.
3. Using death poem for an example of attack speed not being powerful is retarded (Correction: extremely ignorant and/or careless of thought, apoligies again for poor choice of words) and you know it.
4. At the very least, if you want to add this kind of stuff, please give us a version where you've fixed all the known bugs and balance issues (Such as Zanbato) first. Then, if this is truly the direction you want to take the map in, do it in another version after that.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 13.03.2007, 22:45
Quote: 1. These items are far more powerful than the current ones, in that they give huge % enhancements to your hero. And yes, tegeus, I -do- object to the 10% ninja tos. Always have.
2. Look at the bigger picture. Every time more and more powerful items are added, in a few months, these items will be used as examples of why powerful items are apparently ok and it will lead to even worse ones being put in. Adding these sorts of things is a step in what I firmly believe is the wrong direction for the map. Ask almost any skilled and knowledgeable AoS player why most of the AoS maps out there are crap, and they will tell you: The items are too powerful, usually favouring some heroes over others, and generally making the endgame scene more item (Or level, in the case of some) based than actually based on the player's skill.
The more you add this kind of stuff, the more you detract from the skill and tactical expertise of the players being the real influencer to hero battles and the game as a whole. There is a reason I like Samurai Legends instead of most other AoS maps. The more we head down this path of adding more, generically powerful items... the less I, and most of the players I know, will actually like the map.
3. Using death poem for an example of attack speed not being powerful is retarded and you know it.
4. At the very least, if you want to add this kind of stuff, please give us a version where you've fixed all the known bugs and balance issues (Such as Zanbato) first. Then, if this is truly the direction you want to take the map in, do it in another version after that.
No I don't see how retarded it is, thank you very much. So it's not the exact same thing? Big deal. Btw...I happen to know some retarded people in the real life. I find it goddamn childish that you and so many other people use people who have biological or psychological deficiencies as insults. If my opinions sound stupid, that's different from retarded. Get your facts straight.
Do you have any freaking idea how selfish you sound with "me and the people I know"? Take a wild guess who nooK is making this map for. It's not JUST for you and the people you know. It's nice that you know alot about AoS maps and share your wisdom with us, but the thing is you don't know everything. Neither do I, that's not what I'm claiming. It's not the same in the game as it is when it's written here. If the items don't work they can be removed or remade. I'm not saying these new items are fitting godlikely and neither is anyone else. Give the new items a chance and then analyze them. It hasn't even been discussed yet what these items will cost and require. The costs might even completely outweigh the benefits.
Take another wild guess if nooK is trying his best to fix the bugs and unbalances there are.
What's the point in having items if they're not worth using? It's like having food and not eating it.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 14.03.2007, 00:23
First off, I apoligise for my poor choice of terms. I did not mean to offend by using the word 'retarded', nor did I mean to use it as a derogatory term toward those with mental disabilities. I ask that you take it to simply mean 'extremely ignorant and/or careless of thought'. It's sometimes difficult to, when surrounded by a word used in such a fashion in one's culture, to remember what that word actually means or refers to.
By saying "I and most of the players I know", I am not trying to suggest that the map is designed solely for "me and my friends", as you suggested. Instead, I am simply trying to get across that I'm not alone in my opinions. I would speak only for myself and let everyone else post their opinions on this board, but the truth is that most of the Samurai Legends community on US East do not actually frequent these forums.
Quote: If the items don't work they can be removed or remade. I'm not saying these new items are fitting godlikely and neither is anyone else. Give the new items a chance and then analyze them.
So far, the process of removing or remaking unbalanced items from the game is one that has taken a huge amount of time, stress and hassle. By attempting to stop items which, based on numerical analysis and experience, look like they will be a bad idea.. this process can be prevented before it is necessary in each case. This leaves more time and resources with which to play and spread the map, which is something I'm sure we would all love.
Quote: - If Crypt Lord's Spiked Carapace is not imba, how can an armor of the same type be? Also nooK's comparison vs. the Immolation.
- +20-30% attack speed isn't bad. Ronin gains +100% with lvl 5 Poem. Even if someone can have full hp with +20-30%, how could it make such a big difference?
Because some heroes are -supposed- to hit more slowly, or to have a sub-standard physical attack - or even are supposed to have a good physical attack but with larger attack-enhancing items, the attack becomes -too- good. For example, Yari's extreme tankiness is balanced because he is a slow, hard hitter. A skilled Yari played is extremely difficult to kill as it is - but because of the way the hero works, it's balanced. If you give a skilled Yari 30% damage return, 30% attack speed bonus and crit as well as 25% lifesteal... good luck killing him. Ever. At the very least, he'll take down a few of your people before he drops - even if those people are extremely good at the game. Now extend this argument to the No Dachi, who's overpowered as it is - or perhaps to Shinobi, who's just as powerful and difficult to kill as Yari in the hands of an expert player. Mess with the specific things that a hero can and can not do (According to design) by adding items and you are likely to have problems.
Before anyone suggests it - no, the solution is -not- to rebalance the heroes to fit the new items. Hero combat in SL has always been about the heroes first and the items second - reversing this will change the entire dynamic of the map, making it more about 'making better builds' than 'skill in using what you have'.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong... but is there a Crypt Lord in Samurai Legends? Some kind of secret hero that I've never heard about? You can't just say that because it's not imba in one game, it won't be in another. What's more the spiked carapace on a Crypt Lord is a -full skill-. If we're going to add items that are equally as good as a hero's full skill, why not toss in a Whirl item? Or perhaps make a Yari able to Flying Death people? I mean hell, if Flying Death isn't imba on a Ronin, surely it won't be bad on a Yumi or Warlord?
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 14.03.2007, 03:44
*reads and almost cries* My frakking god, are we going to go through all this again?!
You say if an item doesnt work it can be remade or taken out?
Look at bloody ZANBATO!! It took MONTHS to get it changed after alot of people hated it before it was made that way and everyone else joined in after it was made! For all the reasons we're using as an argument here, we were RIGHT, remember that.
Now we have THREE items that are conflicting with those same ideals and beliefs about this map. And you're all saying the EXACT same stuff you all said last time, when I must say again, we were right.
Im sorry if im sounding self righteous here but did you ever think we work this hard against this kind of stuff because of how much we LOVE this map and the concept nooK has developed?! From what ive seen KoNL is -the- most involved and dedicated clan to this map.
As well as the hugely successful forum alot of us also spend alot of time outside of the game talking about it in RL, new ideas, general stuff about the map and all sorts.
And, again i refer to the amounts of times ive heard the "The stuff you referred to from Dota are crappy items that dont compare to other items there" Aside from the fact that unfair items are nothing compared to other stuff already makes me disappointed as it is. I need to say this, and PLEASE get it through your head this time.
I USE THEM FOR MERE REFERENCE, THAT IS ALL FOR GODS SAKE! IM NOT DISCUSSING BALANCE OF DOTA ITEMS!!
Hopefully, for like the 5th time around that will stick.
I am sick and tired of going through this same stupidly hard and long process of arguments everytime something like this happens, but because we love this map so much we have to keep doing it. But the clan is suffering because of it, we have to spend so much of our time trying to convince nooK not to do something that will damage his great map he scarcely plays or trying to convince the rest of you against something that will also damage the game.
It takes away from just enjoying the map and trying to spread it and make it famous, which it is slowly doing. Its bringing resentment to the map. And i dont want it to get to a point where KoNL eventually dies because of this crap.
And like Lyncor said, these items on a Yari would be insane. But my example is more defined.
Yari VS Yari, both players of equal or near equal skill. I dont -think- there any any items that would MAKE one player win 90% of the time currently because most of the really good items only last X amount of seconds and the other could just run when he activates it. But if one Yari had 30% Thorns and while Yari does most of his damage in melee attacking that Yari WOULD ALWAYS WIN! Whirl would be the only skill the othe Yari could use to damage the other without taking your own spear in the face for considerable damage everytime you hit him. That is just one example.
We fight so hard because i believe we spend alot more time than alot of you thinking about this map in and out of the game, alot. And i believe we care about this map alot more than some of you too. This map and clan is worth so much to us.
And yes, if you were able to release a version of the map with all bug fixes before you added this new content it would be much appreciated by us so we may hold onto what SL used to be if this is the path you wish to take with the map. That way we will truly have the old legacy to hold onto.
I have prepared one simple line that sums up our thoughts and it cant get any clearer than this.
We dont want items with skills, we want new heroes that require skills"
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 14.03.2007, 05:51
I totally agree with lyn and SP...we don't need these items and they will disrupt the balence. Also, if they don't themselves dissrupt the balence they will lead to adding more powerful items until the balence is disrupted anyway. We have to nip this problem in the butt.
AoS don't need items...I mean look at AotZ one of the best AoS out there.. it has what 3 shops? One for pots, one for your boots, teleport, and basic stat boosters, and then A shop for other items. And noone gets items too much anyway o.O
Sure this game could stop at the map AoM in the process of becoming DotA with items...where the items are pretty big but arn't too big that they completely take away from skill. But still items in that are still too important(even tho it is my 2nd favorite AoS)
I'm already disapointed with items such as jade blade and samurai armor. I don't like items. I practicully go through and entire hour long game with only buying boots and consumables...and maybe a mask or kanji... But I feel that if more powerful items are added I may have to start buying them just to keep up with even noobish players...
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 14.03.2007, 06:34Argue with me, I dare you.
Now, before anyone reads this post they need to read the first sentence right? Let me but blunt.
I am removing any tact I have for this post out of sheer annoyance.
I warned you in advance, after the long rant of symbols used to both slow down your reading and convey my annoyance you will see an enraged Skirn.
$@#&()*(!$&*(@!$@!*$&@!*($&@!*$@!*($&!($@!)$&*@!$&@*($*&!@)$*(!@$&*@)$&*($&*!(@#&*!@#)(*!&!*%^*&(%!@(#^*($!@&$(@!$!)$@@#$!#(@!*#@(!$&*(!$)&*!$&!()$&*!(@$!)$&*!$)(*!$&(*@!$&*(!@*$(&*(@!$&*(@!$&*(@&!*($!
$(@#*$(@!&$*(@!$&*(!$&*(!$&*(!$*!($&@*(!$&*!($&*($*!(@$&*($&@*(!$*!($&@*(!$&*(@!$&*(!$*(!$&*!%&*%@^!*(%!@&($*@!($@!)$!(*$!)$&@!*($&@!($!@*)$&!*($@&!)($*&!$&@*(!$&@!*($*@(!%(&!(*)$%!(*%&!*%&!(*%&!@*(%)?!
Last warning; this is flamebait.
WHAT THE FUCK ARE PEOPLE THINKING?!
No, seriously, I want to know.
Are people thinking that we should make the game all about getting the right items for a hero in order to win a battle instead of how well one uses the hero? You know, like a ton of AoSes out there? Is that really a way to make the AoS which is already catching on in USEast popular?
Or maybe people are thinking these items are actually balanced with the current game, in which case, play the fucking game for 5 fucking minutes and look at the current items, name one even a third as good as the three items that nooK is adding.
Oni Armor becomes required simply because if you try fighting someone who has the armor without it, youll almost always lose, regardless of your hero. Seriously, the first beta test the armor was in I was Ronin facing things like Onmy and Yumi and getting my ass handed to me by my own attacks followed by a swift nuke. The problem with thorns isnt its ability to stop creeps like Immolation, the problem is its able to utterly slaughter any attacking hero. Give a strength hero, or pump up your HP, and you will always win hero battles without much skill.
Oh, let me continue, because that was the timid one of the bunch in my opinion.
30% attack speed, thats not that horrible right? Look at Ninja-tos, and Jade blade, they already give a fraction ofOh right, combining those together. I know! Lets put it on the people who have stuns, let them almost instant gib people before they can even react afterwards! Brilliant! Or, better, lets throw it on a Yumi, whos already devastating with just damage items due to her range
Whats this, hundred damage per hit, and at least 6 arrows hit before you can even get to her? Well, that means blink is required
Unless of course she has skywalkers or a blink of her own, then all the sudden a single Yumi can not only kite heroes, but slaughter them with just her normal attack. Yes, that item is so balanced to the current game.
Oh! But what about critical strike? That seems fine, I mean the Dachi already has it on
Wait, wasnt that getting removed because people bitched so much and Dachis could very easily slaughter people just by RD -> Critical? I think itd be even worse then the 30% attack speed
or worse! Combine the two, get a Yumi whos killing people with critical hits and a ton of arrows, or throw in a Yari who has Oni armor on already, and make him battlerage. 250 damage critical hit with minimal work on a tank? Thats completely fucking balanced, really!
Oh yeah, if you couldnt tell, Im frakking pissed that this is even an argument.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 14.03.2007, 06:39
...skirn....I <3 you....
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 14.03.2007, 08:09
You want to know just how ticked off the possibility of these new items makes me?
Click here to see the results.
Oh, and by the way... that was with Skywalkers, Basic potions, Negation scrolls, Dust and Teleport Scrolls.
SL doesn't need powerful new items.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 14.03.2007, 10:01
I'd be happy with having only consumables ^.^, skywalks could be replaced with a speed pot, maybe add a armor boost scroll or pot, an attack speed berzerk herb or something...yeah that'd be great having only consumables...
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 14.03.2007, 12:33
I <3 you to skern :D
You just said everything I wanted to soooo much but didnt want to have to :)
There is no need for new items in this game. Just balance, thats all we ask for. And this is not that, in any way! :(
These items are so much more powerful than anything in this game and they will break heroes. any of these items by themselves on the yari or shinobi will make them more powerful than any others hero, this is because they rely on there normal attack to do damage, if you gave either of these heroes all of these items then omg no one would ever try to fight them, they would die if they did.
I seriously these items make me sooo sad. nooK I must ask what are you thinking? :( I do u like to have people be sad.
These items will make people hate this map. this will make this map become one of so many AoSes out there that could be so freaking amazing but you have to pic the write items in order to not lose. That makes me sad because I like that we dont have a map where:
The balance for items is getting a item, so if someone one get this you have to get that to fight them regardless of your skill or theres.
i would hate to see that, there is already berserk and passive attack speed items. Theres is already armor items (e.g. samurai armor) and A.O.E. D.P.S. items (immolation). There is already attack damage items (jade blade, which gives attack speed to). There are other things that this map needs besides these items.
So why is there a need for these items?
Did you put them in just because you felt like it?
It would be nice to no what you plan to do before you do it, we really like this map that is why we are posting and trying to explain that this seems soo...well...stupid, no offence meant. Just I dont get why.....
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 14.03.2007, 12:48
1) Learn to read. Oni armor is 20%.
2) Immo item fucking beats Oni armor, read my explanation.
3) You say a Oni Amor Yari wins against one without? Guess what, a Katana Yari wins against one without. A AM Yari wins against one without. Why items if they have no effect at all? What did the other Yari with his money?...
4) The strongest item has always been samurai armor, but noone uses it. It`s been there since the beginning of SL and far more powerful than any other item and nobody ever complained.
5) If you want to own 1on1 with Yari buy a fucking Katana and a Ninja-to and you deal 15+5 dmg +10 as instead of the AWESOME 12 dmg (on level 20 lol) with Oni Armor.
There are much better items than those being added already in the map.
If you donīt like it, don`t play it, I no longer care...
Over and out, bye guys...
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 14.03.2007, 13:13
Heh, nook does have a point about that...but umm, didn't we all also dislike the immolation anyway? And he also does have a point with the katana. Any hero with an item will beat a hero without one. But nook the point they're trying to get across isn't that the item will alow a yari to beat another yari, it's that the yari will beat the other yari by such a wide margin. But the crit? I mean we didn't like the crit on the dachi...an item crit is way stronger than a skill crit no matter the #'s
I myself, have no problem with the currently proposed items(except the crit... I mean we didn't like the crit on the dachi...an item crit is way stronger than a skill crit no matter the #'s), I wouldn't mind them being tweaked a lil to the nerfer side...but all and all no real problem. The problem I see is that items gradually get greater and greater until the point where we actually do get dota items, and I'm sure none of us want to see that...
So my problem isn't with the actual items currently being put in...It's what they may do to the future of the map...if you gradually put in items stronger than the current ones, you'll base new items off of them which will be stronger and by consequnce much stronger than the previous. This cycle will continue to the point where you need items...Listen nook, I know your better than this...please don't put big items in the game because you hear it's what people want...The people saying that aren't the maps true fans. They are just random people who may enjoy it. The true fans, like me, don't want the changes to the map. We LOVE it the way it is... I just hope you won't disapoint us...T.T :(
If however it does reach that point...could you possibly give access of the map to a member of KoNL to make a branch of the map?
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 14.03.2007, 15:23
Quote: I myself, have no problem with the currently proposed items(except the crit... I mean we didn't like the crit on the dachi...an item crit is way stronger than a skill crit no matter the #'s), I wouldn't mind them being tweaked a lil to the nerfer side...but all and all no real problem. The problem I see is that items gradually get greater and greater until the point where we actually do get dota items, and I'm sure none of us want to see that...
So my problem isn't with the actual items currently being put in...It's what they may do to the future of the map...if you gradually put in items stronger than the current ones, you'll base new items off of them which will be stronger and by consequnce much stronger than the previous. This cycle will continue to the point where you need items...Listen nook, I know your better than this...please don't put big items in the game because you hear it's what people want...The people saying that aren't the maps true fans. They are just random people who may enjoy it. The true fans, like me, don't want the changes to the map. We LOVE it the way it is... I just hope you won't disapoint us...T.T
You say items gradually get stronger and you want to stop that by nerfing them. Guess what follows? You nerf 1 item, another one is now stronger than that. Then you repeat this again, and a third item is now stronger than the 2nd one. It's an endless chain of events that will lead to no items at all. Well that seems to be what you want anyway.
"This cycle will continue to the point where you need items"? Are you claiming that right now you don't? It's like the first rule or something for all people to ALWAYS have boots and potions etc. crap. Seems to me that they goddamn definitely do need items. Let's remove the boots now then too, since a hero with boots wins vs. a hero without boots.
Oh for christs sake! Stop lying to yourself. You and all of your friends have been writing all about how you WANT changes to the map in form of balance changes and now you suddenly claim you do NOT want any changes?!?! You contradict yourself.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 14.03.2007, 17:05
Konl likes to play 7.0.But in 7.0 pots are way better then most items(exept samurai armor).Anti magic pot>any amount of items.Health pot>any item.Some people are to used to items in later versions to realise they gota use pots instead.This will not happen.And not everyone got anti magic pot to go with them or anti magic sword that will dispell the effect.And if you ever had a hero battle....anti magic pots dont make it to much fun eather.The game will eather have items...or have no items.Point blank.O and personaly i ALWAYS thought Samurai Armor is way better then any other item and aside from pooling for shrines i always get it as soon as i possibly can.
Just on the side note...TVoS REALLY cared bout this map and we played ALOT.Even though i left TVoS it was only 'cause of Knot not 'cause of the clan.KONL is not the only clan who cares or plays this map.Many more people enjoy it just as much...remmember that.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 14.03.2007, 18:11
you don't need boots o.O they just help I just said I usually got them. You don't even need the pots...they just make it so you don't have to run to the fountain. But there would be a time when eventually you would need items, like in the case of DotA or AoM. And when I said solve the problem by nerfing the item, I didn't mean severly, I just ment so that it was on par with the other items, I already don't agree with jade blade or samurai armor, but I don't mind them in there because there high cost makes people not want to get them.
Now I understand some ppl like the non-consumables. However I also agree with them not being over powerful... And I also know there are other fans than KoNL... And we only play .7 because it's fun what with no fire shrines, no unit cap, no no-dachi, and because of certain hero specs. Not because of the pots. And we still do play the other versions. We just belive that the focus should stay away from items, and we realize that as more and more people start playing from the DotA populated regions of B.net(no offence to anyone intended) this becomes harder.
I'm just saying if you add these items be careful it doesn't open a can of worms. Because if you add strong items it may lead to to belive stronger items are ok, because you'll compare those stronger items to the recently added strong items.
*sigh* all in all I know I'm not the map maker and have no control over the final say, II'd just like you to keep DotA and skill in mind while making your choices.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 14.03.2007, 23:06Goody, arguments.
Okay, Im going to take each of nooKs list separately, for sanitys sake. I wanted people to argue for a reason.
Quote: Learn to read. Oni armor is 20%.
Whoopsie? Doesnt change my point at all believe it or not.
Quote: 2) Immo item fucking beats Oni armor, read my explanation
Read mine. It answers your point.
Quote: 3) You say a Oni Amor Yari wins against one without? Guess what, a Katana Yari wins against one without. A AM Yari wins against one without. Why items if they have no effect at all? What did the other Yari with his money?...
Difference is that every time you attack you take damage. There was ways to prevent them from attacking through positioning, but theres no way to avoid yourself from attacking. Any skilled Yari can tell you theyve beaten Yaris with more equipment then themselves, but Oni Armor would guarantee that they would put themselves at a huge risk for trying, no other item (Other then maybe Zanbato) does that.
Quote: 4) The strongest item has always been samurai armor, but noone uses it. It`s been there since the beginning of SL and far more powerful than any other item and nobody ever complained.
A: Bullshit, TVoS usually has every single person using it after a half hour.
B: The reason no one complains about it is because it doesnt flat out stop things, it just hinders it. The items youre suggesting would buff up heroes to the point of being near unstoppable.
Quote: 5) If you want to own 1on1 with Yari buy a fucking Katana and a Ninja-to and you deal 15+5 dmg +10 as instead of the AWESOME 12 dmg (on level 20 lol) with Oni Armor
Youre forgetting one very key thing here.
12 damage every time you attack. Thats NOT adding in his damage at all.
If still unconvinced, look at answer #3.
And now for other Wizard.Darks points:
Quote: Konl likes to play 7.0.But in 7.0 pots are way better then most items(exept samurai armor).Anti magic pot>any amount of items.Health pot>any item.Some people are to used to items in later versions to realise they gota use pots instead.This will not happen
Er
I personally think the pots in .7 were worse then the current ones. It doesnt take much to stay behind creeps and use them, and you get more for your money this way. .7 potions were fun due to how it made killing a hero a lot harder without downright making them immortal, thus, despite agreeing towards the change, we still find ourselves missing things from .7.
Quote: And not everyone got anti magic pot to go with them or anti magic sword that will dispell the effect.And if you ever had a hero battle....anti magic pots dont make it to much fun eather.The game will eather have items...or have no items.Point blank.O and personaly i ALWAYS thought Samurai Armor is way better then any other item and aside from pooling for shrines i always get it as soon as i possibly can.
Samurai Armor for instance does nothing to prevent stuns, allowing hit and runs to work very well.
Anti-Magic can be dispelled.
Flatly, items have ways to get around them in most cases
If someone pumps attack damage, dont get hit, do hit and runs.
If someone pumps armor, use either tactics with hit and runs, or if you feel like fighting fire with water, get mercenaries and surround him.
The three items currently suggested have no real way to combat it on certain heroes
A Yari with Oni Armor for instance would simply breeze through creeps and heroes. Throw on Immolation and he becomes able to slaughter everything just by standing there. A Yumi with 30% attack speed and/or critical will allow her to simply kite to kill everything
The reason massing attack damage wasnt equally overpowered with her, was because the increase in attack speed wasnt dramatic, this is.
Quote: Even though i left TVoS it was only 'cause of Knot not 'cause of the clan.
Because I feel you insulted KoNL indirectly in your post, Im going to have to point out you were kicked from TVoS for threatening another TVoS member.
Quote: You say items gradually get stronger and you want to stop that by nerfing them. Guess what follows? You nerf 1 item, another one is now stronger than that. Then you repeat this again, and a third item is now stronger than the 2nd one. It's an endless chain of events that will lead to no items at all. Well that seems to be what you want anyway.
Now, I dont feel I need to respond to Forb, because his wasnt directed at me in the first place. But I am going to comment on this
Theres two ways to balance things: Nerfing and buffing. The trick is to find where you want the general strength of things and use the two accordingly in order to keep things in that general strength of things.
I currently feel that the things suggested are above the general strength of things, and should be nerfed for that reason.
If they are not and things are instead buffed, the general strength of things just becomes stronger like it did between .7 and .8-- and in my personal opinion, I'm against that. I do NOT like heroes being pathetically easy to kill and the ease of putting people in a 'You are dead' situation.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 15.03.2007, 00:58
i mean no disrespect nooK and have always try to stay out of the way you make your map but i cant help but object to this.
let me make a clear point hat may help you understand.
while if you have only one of these items on any hero it would be not to bad, but we are complaining because these items with other items or specific skills on heroes would be insane.
i have seen a ronin take down a yari in a one on one battle, the ronin used no skills! the yari wore him down to 500 hp then the ronin went nuts! he had 4-5 jade blades and killed him in seconds...killed a yari in seconds!, i actually went pale...
any way could you imagen a yari with: 30% attack speed, 20 damage& 10%attack speed(jadeblade), 20-30% life steal (not sure i never use this item) and 10 strength (=10 damage & 250 hp) (Nine-Headed Dragon) and 10% chance to do 1.5 times damage(you probably don't even need the crit...) ... then you could get oni armor and/or berserk..and use battle rage.....omg the DPS..... *shivers* good god man u get this guy to hag out with your warlord, baner/shogun....GOSH.....o and if things start to go wrong HEAL...what could you do to that? you would need nearly all your team to stop it O.o
can you see what I'm getting at?
what about the same on a shinobi.... would the ulti have crit to? cos if so everything would just die! *whimpers*
the items by them selfs are not inba(provided you use just one item) just when used with other items they become unstopable, in other words these items make so many other items soooo amazingly power full its stupid. then the game becomes
"gosh, look at his items i could never take him on and win"
and should that be the case?
should items make you more powerfull than a skilled player?
thank you SP i hope that reaches everyone and is not just ignored.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 15.03.2007, 00:58
First off, Wizard, I would ask that you dont speak for KoNL. I am one of the founding members and I dont like 0.7 at all. Only about 1/3 of KoNL has even played 0.7 so I would appreciate that you didnt try telling us what we like and do.
The stupid thing about all this is that so much is said that all we're doing is going back and forth contradicting each other and getting smart that were spending no time actually discussing the issue.
And, just cause its been bugging the hell out of me with its blatantness.
tegeus said:
Quote: Good to see the man himself is not swayed by the constant cries of imba
*Makes kissing noises* How does nooK's ass taste tegeus?! That comment, aside from being horribly blatant ass kissing also in itself appeals to nooK's ego and helps do in fact what you claim nooK doesnt do, which is get swayed.
Next important note:
Forb said:
Quote: Oh for christs sake! Stop lying to yourself. You and all of your friends have been writing all about how you WANT changes to the map in form of balance changes and now you suddenly claim you do NOT want any changes?!?! You contradict yourself.
Forb, if you read back to any threads where KoNL has stood for what SL stands for (Which its creators cant even remember what that is anymore..) You'll see that any new changes or balance issues we've asked for have NEVER ONCE been for new items, we've wanted bugs fixed EG: The Asai creep bug which still, that i know of, hasnt been fixed. We've wanted items that we never wanted in there, that we said would damage the game, which again i point out, DID changed or balanced, which after months of screwing with the game have finally been taken into action. And lastly we've asked for hero fixes for heroes that require no real skill, ruin the game and also any new content we'd, or most would actually want are some NEW HEROES! Lets get the Strategist in there, or the Lightning Guy, or anyone. We have some AMAZING heroes ready to go in, so why we spending all our time adding items which we DONT NEED (Think about those two words, really think) and fighting about them?
I dont need to address the actual items myself as Skirn has done that nicely, and he has sound explanations for all of them, so until one of you can counter and explain why hes wrong, hes right.
I think some of you, need to think what you're fighting about. You're not fighting to try and prove KoNL wrong or try and be right, theres no shame in admitting, after reading explanations that perhaps these items WERE a bad idea afterall. We're not trying to wreck friendships. We're all working towards the same thing, making SL, which is saposta be a game of SKILL and TEAMWORK great.
Everyone please think before posting anymore. Really think about what we're doing here. Especially you nooK, all this isnt a personal attack on yourself as a person. So no need to get defensive and fight back just for fightings sake. I would hope that we're all adults.
Re: Item Balance
RoboFerret - 15.03.2007, 03:20
By the way, I'd like to point out that boots ARE a lame item, just because they are 'required'. When an item gets to the point that EVERYONE gets it in almost every game, it's lame. It's not a simple boost that one or two people might get, 'everyone' has them. The point of having a wide range of items is so that people's inventory is diversified, and not so that everybody has to get certain items. If it were up to me, (and I know that it's not) I'd just remove boots, they're really a useless item. Once everyone gets them they benefit no one.
I believe this is one of the points that several others are trying to get across, like Skirn's example with Yari getting Oni Armor. Where the main counter is another Oni Armor. (I don't actually know this, since I haven't payed too much attention to the new items, but I believe that's what he's trying to get across, so I used it as an example.)
Also, while some items may be just good on some heroes, on other heroes they can be rigged. One example would be Samurai Armor. Samurai Armor is worth 5x more to a Yari then a Ronin, or a ninja, or most of the other heroes. The resistance and armor combined with his already massive defense makes it incredibly hard to take him down. While on the other hand, if a Yumi or someone were to wear it, while it'd definitely help, it wouldn't make it 'that' much harder to kill Yumi. Another example is damage items, which most Yumis tend to spam. Due to their range, and such, it's more effective than a Yumi to get a damage item than a Warlord. What I'm trying to say here is, items shouldn't be made so that they're mostly used for certain heroes, they should be beneficial to each hero equally. (or as close to equal as you can get.) That way, instead of certain heroes having certain items, the variety of items used for each hero will be much more different. It will also make the playing ground a lot fairer.
Also, this is mostly my personal oppinion, but AMS sucks. ^^ I strongly dislike items where the only way to stop them is to go out of your way to counter them. Also, it's like bottling a hero skill, since Omni's skill is just an improved version of AMS pots.
By the way, what ever happend to that torch item? I really liked that one.
Edit: By the way Forbidden, I 'never' buy potions, and only get boots some of the time when I'm frustrated because everyone else has them. (which helps my point from earlier.) The only item I really get is that kanbei stone (or however you spell it), and sometimes (though not often) I go without that.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 15.03.2007, 03:22
Umm so you know Skirn even though you were fed a bunch of bull shit.I was suspended for 1 week for insulting a member.I argued about it and was suspended for 5 weeks.I was outraged and LEFT LEFT LEFT LEFT by myself he didnt kick me i left the clan,which made BD mad so he left and Ed followed after.Knot tried to get BD back by talking to him in private and ofcaurse failed.You cant belive everything Knot says.He lies alot more then you think buddy if u dont belive me ask ger himself he will probably confirm it if not in presence of Knot.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 15.03.2007, 03:25
wizard.dark wrote: Umm so you know Skirn even though you were fed a bunch of bull shit.I was suspended for 1 week for insulting a member,INSULTING,not threatening,my exact quote was "Well im sorry Ger i dont listen to worthless pices of shit"for which i apologised and admited i was wrong.I argued about it and was suspended for 5 weeks.I was outraged and LEFT LEFT LEFT LEFT by myself he didnt kick me i left the clan,which made BD mad so he left and Ed followed after.Knot tried to get BD back by talking to him in private and ofcaurse failed.You cant belive everything Knot says.He lies alot more then you think buddy if u dont belive me ask ger himself he will probably confirm it if not in presence of Knot.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 15.03.2007, 04:22
to be honest i don't care, and i believe that few others do. we are meant to be discussing items for SL not bitching about you and knots personal problems. so take this up some where else please.
Robo is rite i only ever get boots if heroes are able to chase me down and kill me no matter what i do, or if most of there team has boots. for this reason i ushaly only get them in in house games with skilled players on each team. i never upgrade to skywalkers unless I'm being ganked regularly. boots are a perfect egsample of a awsumly powerful item that you have to get in order to stay in the game.
i only ever use boots and potions as a yumi, it is all you need. not just as yumi eather.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 15.03.2007, 04:28
Anton...skirn...SP..You guys are my heros o.o. I totally agree with these guys points entirely. How that the items are kinda big and their main bigness factor isn't how used seperatly it's when used with other items or certain heros. Also why are we focusing on items when we should be focusing on getting a new hero out? And fixing some bugs in the game insted of adding new content that may provide more bugs?
And please don't bring politics into this or any personal issues. This discusion is for the map only and should not be used to attack anyone in anyway.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 15.03.2007, 04:38
Skirn, I have nothing but respect for your grasp of hero skill balance and for your personal skill, but, likewise putting away all tact, I have to say that you have no fucking clue about what makes an item good or not. None of these item are broken. Look:
30% attack speed--Firstly, +% attack speed items don't work on true percentage values, but actually just add simulated agility. Secondly, in DotA, you can get 55% attack speed for 2300 gold, and guess what? No one buys it. Why? Because survivability, mobility, and pure damage items are much better. Attack speed is only useful when your opponents stay in one spot for you to hit and when you can stay in one spot and attack. The reality is that many attacks will be made against fleeing opponents, or while you yourself are moving around. This is true in DotA and even truer in SL.
Damage return--Why don't you go back to that replay and actually calculate how much HP you lost to damage return? I am pretty damn sure it will not exceed what you would have lost had your opponent spent an equivalent amount of resources on other items. Better yet, email me the replay (metastasis[at]gmail.com) and I will do it for you. You will need to send me the map as well, of course.
Critical strike--10% for 1.5x damage is really nothing. That's an average of an additional 5% to your damage on each attack. For example, your hero has somehow managed to get an impossible 200 (!) damage per attack. What does this critical add? An average of 10 damage. Hax!
None of these items are imba in concept--if one should be too strong, a price increase should fix that. The real powerhouse items are already in the game, and they are Skywalker, Helmet of the Dragon, Kanji Stone and Blink. Oh, and the instaheal potions, quite frankly the most imba item I've seen in any AoS, which I successfully argued against and had removed when all of you were nodding your heads and saying 'Cool map'.
Oh, and as for this: Quote: Flatly, items have ways to get around them in most cases
If someone pumps attack damage, dont get hit, do hit and runs.
If someone pumps armor, use either tactics with hit and runs, or if you feel like fighting fire with water, get mercenaries and surround him.
The three items currently suggested have no real way to combat it on certain heroes
A Yari with Oni Armor for instance would simply breeze through creeps and heroes. Throw on Immolation and he becomes able to slaughter everything just by standing there. A Yumi with 30% attack speed and/or critical will allow her to simply kite to kill everything
The reason massing attack damage wasnt equally overpowered with her, was because the increase in attack speed wasnt dramatic, this is.
Try these suggested changes:
1) Ban Yari from using Oni Armour.
2) Only one of that attack speed item may be held in the inventory at any one time.
Wasn't that easy?
Viziroth: Quote: I myself, have no problem with the currently proposed items(except the crit... I mean we didn't like the crit on the dachi...an item crit is way stronger than a skill crit no matter the #'s), I wouldn't mind them being tweaked a lil to the nerfer side...but all and all no real problem. The problem I see is that items gradually get greater and greater until the point where we actually do get dota items, and I'm sure none of us want to see that...
So basically, your objection is just a big slippery slope argument? Come on, nooK is not an idiot, nor are the people who give him feedback. The day someone wants to put a +75 damage in the item in the game, not even I would be able to defend it--nor would I wish to. Plus, these items will not make items 'gradually get greater and greater', only more varied, because quite simply they are not better than the existing items.
BTW, I'm sure you're aware that your argument against the crit is a huge exaggeration--if an item gave a 5% chance to crit for 1.1x, that would be stronger than No Dachi's crit, simply because it is item-derived? Really?
Anton: Quote: let me make a clear point hat may help you understand.
while if you have only one of these items on any hero it would be not to bad, but we are complaining because these items with other items or specific skills on heroes would be insane.
i have seen a ronin take down a yari in a one on one battle, the ronin used no skills! the yari wore him down to 500 hp then the ronin went nuts! he had 4-5 jade blades and killed him in seconds...killed a yari in seconds!, i actually went pale...
[. . .] in other words these items make so many other items soooo amazingly power full its stupid. then the game becomes
"gosh, look at his items i could never take him on and win"
and should that be the case?
should items make you more powerfull than a skilled player?
The question is, how did he get all those items if you are so much more skillful than he is? Who he is killing to get his honour? How is he farming creeps without finding himself on the receiving end of a Ronin/Ninja gank?
Shadow Phoenix: Quote: *Makes kissing noises* How does nooK's ass taste tegeus?! That comment, aside from being horribly blatant ass kissing also in itself appeals to nooK's ego and helps do in fact what you claim nooK doesnt do, which is get swayed.
I don't rely on this forum or the SL community for any sense of validation, and as such I have no need to toss anyone's salad. nooK does not have the benefit of a ridiculously massive fanbase to reassure him that his opinions are right; that he is willing to tell you guys that you are basically full of shit on this point, knowing that you are the most active supporters of his map, is something I respect. It's that simple.
If there's anything I want to 'sway' nooK to, it's to not be afraid of temper tantrums thrown by people who think they have a right to dictate the content of SL forevermore just because they have the most and loudest mouths in the room. You're a clan, great. You started playing SL early, great. You spend most of your playing time stomping pubs. gg?
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 15.03.2007, 04:55
RoboFerret: Quote: By the way, I'd like to point out that boots ARE a lame item, just because they are 'required'. When an item gets to the point that EVERYONE gets it in almost every game, it's lame. It's not a simple boost that one or two people might get, 'everyone' has them. The point of having a wide range of items is so that people's inventory is diversified, and not so that everybody has to get certain items. If it were up to me, (and I know that it's not) I'd just remove boots, they're really a useless item. Once everyone gets them they benefit no one.
/agree
Quote: Also, while some items may be just good on some heroes, on other heroes they can be rigged. One example would be Samurai Armor. Samurai Armor is worth 5x more to a Yari then a Ronin, or a ninja, or most of the other heroes. The resistance and armor combined with his already massive defense makes it incredibly hard to take him down. While on the other hand, if a Yumi or someone were to wear it, while it'd definitely help, it wouldn't make it 'that' much harder to kill Yumi. Another example is damage items, which most Yumis tend to spam. Due to their range, and such, it's more effective than a Yumi to get a damage item than a Warlord. What I'm trying to say here is, items shouldn't be made so that they're mostly used for certain heroes, they should be beneficial to each hero equally. (or as close to equal as you can get.) That way, instead of certain heroes having certain items, the variety of items used for each hero will be much more different. It will also make the playing ground a lot fairer.
I agree with your assessment of item usage, but I disagree that the outcome is undesirable. Why should it not be the case that some items are better on certain heroes than on others? Damage is more useful to heroes who have more chances to attack. Mana is more useful on heroes who spam their spells more. Mobility is more useful on heroes whose skills needs more positioning. And so on. This is natural! Seriously, I don't believe you could ever invent an item that is anywhere near equally useful on all heroes.
And the playing ground is by definition fair, as each team has access to the same pool of heroes.
Re: Item Balance
RoboFerret - 15.03.2007, 05:08
It's not so much that, as much as the fact that a (random example) a 500 gold item could be very usefull for (random hero) Yari, while a Yumi would have to spend 1000 gold for an item that gave him equal usefullness.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 15.03.2007, 05:25
Ima just randomly put names to those gold amounts.... monk's clothes and the wakitazi(sp?) or maybe kanji stone....cuz u either planned that or it was coincidence lol....
Re: Item Balance
Kai Okarian - 15.03.2007, 06:13
............
WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?!
Look, here's the easiest goddamn way to stop the fucking bullshit.
Remove EVERYTHING.
You fucking heard me. Get rid of every goddamn item. Or leave the health/mana pots in, something like that.
You're never going to please the masses, nooK, but fucking TRY TO LISTEN TO US!
You're making me glad I'm tired of SL now. Adding in bullshit items that aren't needed? Reminds me of another map.....but that's not the fucking point.
Oh, and Wizard? Shut the fuck up you goddamned cockstain. I've wanted to say this for awhile. Everything you say is completely pointless, and...get this! NO-ONE FUCKING CARES. You don't know SHIT. You're full of yourself, and think you know everything about anything. Just piss off, and find something better to do, such as get a life.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 15.03.2007, 06:28
Tegeus?
Let me be very blunt here.
Every thing you said there was reminded me of pure arrogant ignorance.
Let me be very blunt to why.
Quote: 30% attack speed--Firstly, +% attack speed items don't work on true percentage values, but actually just add simulated agility. Secondly, in DotA, you can get 55% attack speed for 2300 gold, and guess what? No one buys it. Why? Because survivability, mobility, and pure damage items are much better. Attack speed is only useful when your opponents stay in one spot for you to hit and when you can stay in one spot and attack. The reality is that many attacks will be made against fleeing opponents, or while you yourself are moving around. This is true in DotA and even truer in SL.
Its been said over and over again that SL is not DotA
and this is even more true on this point. DotAs damage items are MUCH more extreme then in SL, thus an increase in attack speed will actually cause more damage then an increase in damage. In SL, Id rather have one item that lets me squeeze in two attacks where usually Id only have one, then one item that adds +20 to my damage, and thats not even getting into the fact thats just with one item.
Quote: Damage return--Why don't you go back to that replay and actually calculate how much HP you lost to damage return? I am pretty damn sure it will not exceed what you would have lost had your opponent spent an equivalent amount of resources on other items. Better yet, email me the replay (metastasis[at]gmail.com) and I will do it for you. You will need to send me the map as well, of course.
Easily done. Check your email tomorrow, I'll even give you the times to check for Oni doing the work in the email.
Quote: Critical strike--10% for 1.5x damage is really nothing. That's an average of an additional 5% to your damage on each attack. For example, your hero has somehow managed to get an impossible 200 (!) damage per attack. What does this critical add? An average of 10 damage. Hax!
A: Ask any map maker, 10% is closer to 30% in actuality.
B: Look at the Dachi. Its already been proven the damage becomes stupidly powerful due to the fact the game is with low health heroes. Throw in a nuke or a stun, and critical can and will just slaughter people.
Quote: None of these items are imba in concept--if one should be too strong, a price increase should fix that. The real powerhouse items are already in the game, and they are Skywalker, Helmet of the Dragon, Kanji Stone and Blink. Oh, and the instaheal potions, quite frankly the most imba item I've seen in any AoS, which I successfully argued against and had removed when all of you were nodding your heads and saying 'Cool map'.
You know what makes me laugh here?
The fact I disagree with every item you mentioned except Skywalker.
Blink usually does very little due to the fact you cant blink when Netted anymore. Generally Latona works out better thanks to that.
Helmet of the Dragon always felt like a waste of money to me, only really good for increasing your Hp.
Kanji stone IS a waste of money, just grab mana potions instead. Its more efficient and cheaper.
Quote: Try these suggested changes:
1) Ban Yari from using Oni Armour.
2) Only one of that attack speed item may be held in the inventory at any one time.
Wasn't that easy?
Wait a second, let me be very, very blunt here
Tegeus, I have respect for your ability at DotA and your resilience towards your opinions, but you have no fucking clue what item balance means.
If you need to add rules, to the item, its not balanced to the current game. The game host shouldnt ever need to make in house rules if the items are truly balanced.
Honestly, I feel like that was your way of saying Well, I cant actually argue that hes right here, so Ill just ban certain things with that item and its fine! -- which really proves my point.
Now, Ill let Shadow and Anton answer for themselves in every regard except this one
Quote: You spend most of your playing time stomping pubs. gg?
Bullshit. Bullshit. And more bullshit. KoNL as a whole rarely pub stomps now a days. Not to say we dont of course, but more often then not were splitting our teams to make a semi-balanced game.
Congratulations you ignorant asshole, you just insulted someone on something he doesnt do.
We suggest these things because we KNOW how skill players will use them and we know it will be overpowered. Dont ever assume all we do is pubstomp, any fucking one of us.
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 15.03.2007, 06:34oh god say it isn't true
i love SL, Its one of the best Aoss in Wc3 right now but all i have to say to the item changes are--- If i wanted to play a game that is dominated by what items teh characters had i would just play dota.
Re: Item Balance
Reaper - 15.03.2007, 07:32
Ok. Right. So, we have an issue here. Conflicting opinions. Obviously the 1st thing everyone needs to do is take a few deep breaths and think about what their actual view is. There is no need to make posts simply to disagree with someone else. There are two strong lines of opinions running here at the moment:
One - "These new items are unbalanced, SL is fine item-wise and it needs no new items added simply for the sake of adding them. This could lead to items getting progressively stronger until we arrive at DotA-type items."
Two - "These new items are exactly what SL needs, they will fit right in with the map and be all lovely and stuff."
Here is where I think I should offer a third.
I personally really like the idea of a damage return item. That could add some interesting new dynamics to fights. I have one problem with it. It's permanent. This removes almost all skill from the item. There's no skill in using it... you just equip it... there's no skill in fighting someone with it... it's always there, you're going to get hurt no matter when you attack them. So, I propose an item similar in functionality to the activatable berserk but with an activatable damage return, rather than a piece of armour that returns damage all the time. I'm not too sure on numbers, but I think maybe lasting 10-15 seconds with a 60-70 second cool down is getting there, although probably still needs work. This damage rerturn should be a relatively high number 35% or something springs to mind as appropriate. This item would then require skill to use and skill to combat aswell. You would have to pick the right time to activate it, as it only lasts for 10-15 seconds, rather than a lower percentage, but permanent damage return. When fighting someone with it, you would again have to adjust your fighting method and tactics during the fight if it was activated. This means it adds more skill to the game, and some new dynamics to fights with heroes carrying this item.
The critical strike item. This is a tough one. There is always the urge, in AoS style maps to pump them full of crit items and crit skills and crit everything. Now, when you take a look at SL, there is not that much in there in terms of crits. There is No-Dachi's skill only. Right, I myself do not think an item which gives a 10% chance for a 1.5 crit is, by itself, overpowered, provided that is ALL it does. By that I mean it should be crit only and have no damage bonus. That said, this item has the potential to be overpowered when combined with other attack modifying items such as a whole pile of ninja-tos or any other combination of items that give your hero an insane attack speed. Also, I think Kobun and this new crit item should not be able to be worn together, this would give people the choice of one or the other. So, in summary, there should be a restriction on the number of attack speed increasing items that can be worn by one hero (berserk included). Potentially one. Having berserk and the crit item on Yumi would be devastatingly effective. Good. It should be, it costs the earth. The problem would come with Yumi having a jadeblade, berserk, the crit item and the attack speed item and filled up with ninja-tos. This would just be insane, as would any other hero with those items. As long as we manage to restrict the combination of some items, the balance should remain intact. There will obviously be a bit of ironing out the lumps and wrinkles to do but that is always required with additions to a map.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 15.03.2007, 11:08
<3 Reaper.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 15.03.2007, 12:48
So the problem with everyone is not the individual items, but the items combined with existing ones and each other? Perhaps we could limit things? For example all swords etc. can be categorized as "weapons". And then only 1 weapon could be held at a time. You could no longer mass Ninja-tos because you could only hold 1 at a time. All armors can be also categorized. Then you can't have both Oni armor and Samurai armor. Items like Kanji stone etc. could be categorized as "misc". and they probably wouldn't need any limits. The only problem with this would be that synthesizing items like Nine-headed dragon would need to be worked out somehow.
I know this thing is already in many maps before SL. This probably isn't the answer and I am not saying we should just go ahead and copy this thing from other maps that use this same property. But it would fix both problems: the items could be added and they couldn't be massed in an imba way. And don't start yelling at me that I'm trying to bring in crap from other AoS maps that are completely different from SL. Im simply suggesting it.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 15.03.2007, 13:02
I've often thought about that kind of thing, but when it comes down to it, it limits choices more than it provides them. Generally a hero is stuck down to getting a choice of 2-3 builds, with no variation.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 15.03.2007, 13:12
Hmm, you're probably right.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 15.03.2007, 15:42
RoboFerret: Quote: It's not so much that, as much as the fact that a (random example) a 500 gold item could be very usefull for (random hero) Yari, while a Yumi would have to spend 1000 gold for an item that gave him equal usefullness.
I find the whole idea of set units of 'usefulness' problematic, as it means very different things for different heroes. Would you agree that the more a hero suffers from lack of a particular thing, the more useful an item that provides it is to him? It would then seem that the Ronin, for example, being a hero who has extremely little need for items, unbalances the game.
I argue that instead of approaching balance with this philosophy, items should instead be balanced according to their utility on their best possible buyer. If it is not overpowered on its best possible buyer, and not extremely underpowered on, say, the next three best possible buyers, then that item is balanced.
Skirn: Quote: Tegeus?
Let me be very blunt here.
Every thing you said there was reminded me of pure arrogant ignorance.
Let me be very blunt to why.
Please go ahead. No reason you should be any less blunt to one person than you were with your opening barrage agaisnt absolutely everyone who disagreed, right?
Quote: Its been said over and over again that SL is not DotA
and this is even more true on this point. DotAs damage items are MUCH more extreme then in SL, thus an increase in attack speed will actually cause more damage then an increase in damage.
Then what does it tell you that even in DotA, where attack speed is by your own admission more valuable than it is in SL, no one buys pure attack speed in serious games?
Quote: In SL, Id rather have one item that lets me squeeze in two attacks where usually Id only have one, then one item that adds +20 to my damage, and thats not even getting into the fact thats just with one item.
Let's say you have a base attack time of 1.7 and 40 agility (a figure that is both convenient and a good middle ground). You would then take 1.7 / (1 + 0.4) = ~1.21 seconds for each attack. If you were to then buy the 30% attack speed item, you would take exactly 1 second.
Let's look at the duration of disables in SL, which are usually what you will need to attack someone continuously. All the stuns, slows and nets last 1, 3, 5 or 6 seconds. In 1 second (or less), you would gain no additional attack from the IAS item. In 3 seconds, you would gain 1 attack. In 5 seconds, you still gain 1 attack. In 6 seconds, guess what? 1 attack. And if you waste a fraction of a second moving within attack range of the target, you will get no additional attack in any of these cases.
These figures will differ based on base attack time, agility etc., of course, but I think this example shows that 30% attack speed will be far from overwhelming in all but the most atypical of cases.
Quote: Easily done. Check your email tomorrow, I'll even give you the times to check for Oni doing the work in the email.
Great, thanks a lot.
Quote: A: Ask any map maker, 10% is closer to 30% in actuality.
Really? I have heard nothing of the sort nor seen any evidence of it. Let's ask nooK, he's 'any map maker', surely. nooK, is 10% closer to 30%?
Quote: B: Look at the Dachi. Its already been proven the damage becomes stupidly powerful due to the fact the game is with low health heroes. Throw in a nuke or a stun, and critical can and will just slaughter people.
As of 0.9, No Dachi's crit at level 5 is 20% to deal 2.5x damage. That's an average boost of 30%, 6 times the effectiveness of the suggested item crit. Sure, the No Dachi crit pwns (be thankful I argued it down from even more ridiculous figures), and arguably could use a nerf. But the idea that an item that gives a crit that is one sixth as effective would unbalance the game? Ridiculous.
Quote: You know what makes me laugh here?
The fact I disagree with every item you mentioned except Skywalker.
Blink usually does very little due to the fact you cant blink when Netted anymore. Generally Latona works out better thanks to that.
This I'll have to concede. I was not aware of this change.
Quote: Helmet of the Dragon always felt like a waste of money to me, only really good for increasing your Hp.
One Helmet does little. Stacked Helmets do a lot.
Quote: Kanji stone IS a waste of money, just grab mana potions instead. Its more efficient and cheaper.
Yes, if you can spare 20 seconds. Can you usually spare 20 seconds when you're sieging a base? Kanji Stone is what you buy to have mana when it matters the most, not something you get immediately for lane advantage (which it doesn't give) or modest pushes.
Quote: If you need to add rules, to the item, its not balanced to the current game. The game host shouldnt ever need to make in house rules if the items are truly balanced.
Honestly, I feel like that was your way of saying Well, I cant actually argue that hes right here, so Ill just ban certain things with that item and its fine! -- which really proves my point.
Care to buy a clue, Skirn? You can have one for free, I've got plenty. Here it comes:
I'm talking about built-in prevention measures, not house rules.
If you buy Oni Armour on Yari, it auto-drops. If you buy the attack speed item when you already have one, the second one will auto-drop. Sound implausible to you? No, it is a simple mechanic, and often used.
Any questions?
Quote: Bullshit. Bullshit. And more bullshit. KoNL as a whole rarely pub stomps now a days. Not to say we dont of course, but more often then not were splitting our teams to make a semi-balanced game.
My apologies, then. My comment was based on four things:
1) The rather astounding claim Lyncor made a while back of only ever having lost one game of SL.
2) wizard.dark's complaints on another thread, that Lyncor denied rather half-heartedly. (Admittedly wizard.dark can be a bit of a dick.)
3) The screenshot Lyncor posted about a page back. Please don't tell me that was a mixed game. It would be rather sad.
4) Lyncor's accusing me of having my tongue up nooK's ass. That's a rather unprovoked and personal insult, so pardon me if I was inclined to get a little personal myself. I should not have been so broad, in retrospect.
My preliminary compliments to you earlier were not a disguised 'brace yourself bitch, I'm about to flame your bollocks off'; I don't bother covering my ass like that. They were sincere, and I would regret it if I gave you personal offence over what is in the end a dispute over one of many balance issues of an obscure map on an old computer game.
Reaper: Quote: There are two strong lines of opinions running here at the moment:
One - "These new items are unbalanced, SL is fine item-wise and it needs no new items added simply for the sake of adding them. This could lead to items getting progressively stronger until we arrive at DotA-type items."
Two - "These new items are exactly what SL needs, they will fit right in with the map and be all lovely and stuff."
Here is where I think I should offer a third.
Thank you for playing the voice of reason, but I have to add that my view is neither of these. I don't think SL needs these items at all--like I said, I believe there are better options among the current items--but I do not think they are out of place or imba either.
Quote:
I personally really like the idea of a damage return item. That could add some interesting new dynamics to fights. I have one problem with it. It's permanent. This removes almost all skill from the item. There's no skill in using it... you just equip it... there's no skill in fighting someone with it... it's always there, you're going to get hurt no matter when you attack them. So, I propose an item similar in functionality to the activatable berserk but with an activatable damage return, rather than a piece of armour that returns damage all the time. I'm not too sure on numbers, but I think maybe lasting 10-15 seconds with a 60-70 second cool down is getting there, although probably still needs work. This damage rerturn should be a relatively high number 35% or something springs to mind as appropriate. This item would then require skill to use and skill to combat aswell. You would have to pick the right time to activate it, as it only lasts for 10-15 seconds, rather than a lower percentage, but permanent damage return. When fighting someone with it, you would again have to adjust your fighting method and tactics during the fight if it was activated. This means it adds more skill to the game, and some new dynamics to fights with heroes carrying this item.
I support this idea. I might actually get this item.
Quote: The critical strike item. This is a tough one. There is always the urge, in AoS style maps to pump them full of crit items and crit skills and crit everything. Now, when you take a look at SL, there is not that much in there in terms of crits. There is No-Dachi's skill only. Right, I myself do not think an item which gives a 10% chance for a 1.5 crit is, by itself, overpowered, provided that is ALL it does. By that I mean it should be crit only and have no damage bonus. That said, this item has the potential to be overpowered when combined with other attack modifying items such as a whole pile of ninja-tos or any other combination of items that give your hero an insane attack speed. Also, I think Kobun and this new crit item should not be able to be worn together, this would give people the choice of one or the other. So, in summary, there should be a restriction on the number of attack speed increasing items that can be worn by one hero (berserk included). Potentially one. Having berserk and the crit item on Yumi would be devastatingly effective. Good. It should be, it costs the earth. The problem would come with Yumi having a jadeblade, berserk, the crit item and the attack speed item and filled up with ninja-tos. This would just be insane, as would any other hero with those items. As long as we manage to restrict the combination of some items, the balance should remain intact. There will obviously be a bit of ironing out the lumps and wrinkles to do but that is always required with additions to a map.
Nicely thought out, but I simply disagree that so low a crit could ever be more than a nifty bonus. I don't know how much this item costs/will cost, but let's just look at it in terms of pure effectiveness. As I pointed out, it only amounts to 5% more damage on average. A Master Katana gives 15 damage. In order for the crit to become more valuable than one more Mastar Katana, you willl need 300 damage. 300, ffs! Rare in most AoSes, literally impossible in SL. Combine it with all the Jadeblades you like, but this crit will simply never be imba. Never.
I agree with your final assessment, though. Of course it will need balancing, like all new introductions to a map, and of course it is balanceable.
Lyncor: Hilarious that you <3 Reaper when his position is essentially the same as mine.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 15.03.2007, 17:03
Im gona throw back in the idea bout having items classified.What if you could infact have 1 sword,1 armor,1 amulet,2 rings perhaps?And be able to upgrade them.Not just to 1 classes specified items but like be able to upgrade 1 sword to 10 intellect,or 10 agility,or 5 intellect and 5 agility...balance it out.Not only will this balance heros and make them less powerfull but maybe it will balance the items.Ofcaurse i dont want people to have 1 massivly powerfull sword...but in terms of balancing out the % and the damage i think it could work.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 15.03.2007, 21:12
I have limited time, and will post more later, but first...
Quote: My apologies, then. My comment was based on four things:
1) The rather astounding claim Lyncor made a while back of only ever having lost one game of SL.
2) wizard.dark's complaints on another thread, that Lyncor denied rather half-heartedly. (Admittedly wizard.dark can be a bit of a dick.)
3) The screenshot Lyncor posted about a page back. Please don't tell me that was a mixed game. It would be rather sad.
4) Lyncor's accusing me of having my tongue up nooK's ass. That's a rather unprovoked and personal insult, so pardon me if I was inclined to get a little personal myself. I should not have been so broad, in retrospect.
1. So, let's see... that was what... 3-4 months ago? Maybe 5? Awfully out dated information to go on. Let me give you new information...
-Pub stomps now only make up a minority of KoNL SL games. Now that we have more people with sufficient skill, we face each other. The only time we go on one team is if we are unable to fairly split the teams, and/or just want to mess around.
-While my win/loss percentage is still astoundingly high, a while ago I put aside even remembering it specifically. If you care to know, I do however still win almost every game I play.
2. wizard.dark is not a valid source of information.
3. That's an example of 'messing around'. We were all rather pissed off after reading the new item suggestions and wanted to kill something, so vented it into a game.
4. I made no such accusation. Please get your facts straight, as you so regularly say to others. Shadow Phoenix != Lyncor.
Quote: Lyncor: Hilarious that you <3 Reaper when his position is essentially the same as mine.
Not at all. You keep saying that the new items are balanced, which he does not say or believe at all. If you had the same position, why didn't you post what he did? Reading then agreeing with someone doesn't put you in their position, it means they've managed to get through to someone. Furthermore, your posts constantly talk about balance of numbers - I don't recall ever seeing you talk about player skill based stuff as a goal in the map. Reaper's suggestion was based around it. -That- is primarily the reason his post made me happy.
Oh, and by player skill I don't mean knowing how farm and devise item builds. That's mostly knowledge. I'm talking about using the heroes, as they are, to their full potential - which is in fact higher than the 'numbers' would suggest.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 15.03.2007, 21:21
Ah fuck, so you didn't. It looks like it's my own foot in my mouth instead. :oops:
I guess reason 4 now becomes 'I was in a bad mood because someone else flamed me', which is no reason at all (edit: actually it is still as much of a reason as it was when I posted this, since SP is as much associated with KoNL as you are). My apologies to you too, then.
I stand by my on-topic arguments, of course.
(Edit follows)
Quote: Not at all. You keep saying that the new items are balanced, which he does not say or believe at all.
I said no such thing. Indeed, how could I possibly make a judgement on the balance of each particular item when I don't even know the prices of the items? Here's what I actually said:
1) What's wrong with damage return? Msot damage is from spells anyway.
2) What's wrong with +attack speed? Maybe not 30% in a single item, but say 10-15%? If you object to that, you ought to object to Ninja-To, right?
3) What's wrong with 10% critical strike (which is almost nothing)? Shall we remove the Katana from the game as well?
1 and 2 are explicitly in-principle defences to SP's categorical attack. 3 is an in-principle defence of the existence of a crit of such a value--i.e. it will not break the game, thoguh of course I'd agree that the item itself would need balancing if it cost, say, 1 gold!
I emphasise: SP argued that the items are not just imba, but unbalanceable. (Your own, later post supported this view, justifying it with a slippery slope argument.) Read my post in that context and it should be quite clear what I meant.
Quote: If you had the same position, why didn't you post what he did?
Perhaps because I am not the same person he is? You have the same position as SP, but you (I now realise) did not make a personal attack on me, while he did. QED?
Quote: Furthermore, your posts constantly talk about balance of numbers - I don't recall ever seeing you talk about player skill based stuff as a goal in the map. Reaper's suggestion was based around it. -That- is primarily the reason his post made me happy.
Then your buttons are easily pressed. I don't feel the need to constantly talk about 'keeping SL skill-based' as that is implicit in the discussion. I particularly don't see the need to appeal to that when the issue at hand regards items that I consider functionally similar (and even inferior) to items already in the game.
Quote: Oh, and by player skill I don't mean knowing how farm and devise item builds. That's mostly knowledge. I'm talking about using the heroes, as they are, to their full potential - which is in fact higher than the 'numbers' would suggest.
I wouldn't argue with that. I would argue that no balanced item will ever take that away. Unless an item is so absurdly strong that once equipped, the power of the hero is such that skill becomes irrelevant (Step 1: Purchase item. Step 2: A-click back of enemy base. Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit!), a more skilled player will always defeat a less skilled player, provided that the more skileld player chooses his items equally well (which he should, since it is basic).
Of course, it is also possible for an item to be good enough to make it the only viable choice on a particular hero without being so good as to break the game. That would be a terrible state of affairs (to be fixed with balancing), but it would still not remove skill from the game. It would just make it less fun until fixed. None of us want that, but it would hardly be the apocalypse you guys make it out to be.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 16.03.2007, 00:15
Quote: a more skilled player will always defeat a less skilled player, provided that the more skileld player chooses his items equally well (which he should, since it is basic).
"Provided that the more skilled player chooses his items equally well"? That's not how Samurai Legends works. Items help a bit, but an itemwhored hero can still be beaten by a superior player using the same hero (Or even a less hero-combat oriented one in some cases). What you're suggesting is that the balance to one player itemwhoring is that another player on the opposing team can itemwhore too and if he's skilled, beat that hero.
A hero with no items should still be able to beat a hero decked out in over 10'000 gold / 30 honour's worth of gear, provided the skill gap is sufficient. However, the more that powerful items are added to the game, the more players are capable of creating 'unbeatable without items too' builds.
The counter to an item should not be to buy a 'better' one. The counter to an item should be a change in behaviour to take the extra capability granted by that item into account. Your enemy having powerful items should make beating them a bit more difficult - should definitely give them a bit of an edge - but it should not make it such that a 'random pub with the ability to control their hero to a basic degree' can beat an expert player 1v1 even when the expert is performing well.
Usually, skilled players will only buy a very basic set of items - often boots, potions, 1 or 2 hardpoint items that give a basic bonus (Such a monk's clothes, rings of regeneration or a kanji stone) and a 1-2 useful consumables (Such as teleport, dust or negation). Why do they do this? They need to use the rest of their resources to help the war effort - pooling their gold and honour for shrines, buying peasants for repair work (In a skilled game, peasants are regularly hunted, killed and require replacing), hiring mercenaries to aid in defense / pushing and sometimes summoning legends. It's called teamwork, and its necessity is one of (If not THE) best things about the map.
Powerful Items --> 'Solo' play.
Basic Items --> Teamwork.
I mean seriously. In a game with pubs, some of them will listen and pool, the others will follow DotA tactics and itemwhore themselves as best they can. We all know it, we've all seen it - and we've all been frustrated by it. These players are not contributing to their team much, instead trying to win the game on their lonesome.
The more you add powerful items, the more this approach will actually -work-... and the more teamwork will become a luxury, not a necessity. And yes, DotA does still need teamwork. Nowhere -near- the level that SL needs, though.
Currently, SL games aren't won by having a team of champions - SL games are won by having a champion team. If that ever changes, then it won't be Samurai Legends any more - it'll be Samurai Warz!!@11!1one1.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 16.03.2007, 00:26
A player who 'itemwhores' off the bat is not a player who has chosen his items well. If you (the hypothetical you) really are a skilled player, every omgwtfpwnage item your rookie opponent has should have been punished in the form of spawns and/or mercs he doesn't have, ganks made on his teammates while he is ramboing it up, towers downed because he was too cheap to buy peasants or TP scrolls, etc. This would only stop being the case if the items he's been able to obtain are so strong as to give him superior pushing despite the massive disadvantages he faces. Is it your position that any of these suggested items come anywhere close? Or is the full extent of your argument really that, 'Well, these items are not imba, but if we introduce these, imba items will surely creep in'?
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 16.03.2007, 00:39
The full extent of my argument, as you put it? Here you go:
These (Still imba in my opinion) items facilitate far more powerful hero builds than previously possible, which will lead to a lesser degree of teamwork, skill and strategy being necessary to do well in the game. Furthermore, if these are added, then it will facilitate the further adding of items that allow hero builds that are more powerful still. The more powerful the heroes are due to items, the less skill/teamwork/strategy matters in mid-late game - which, incidentally, is the part where SL usually gets really really fun BECAUSE of the skill/teamwork/strategy required. That is fact. Therefore, to end this trend before it starts (Oh wait, it has started already) we need to stop putting in powerful items and instead spend precious development time on more worthwhile things such as adding new (Player skill & teamwork based and balanced) heroes, and fixing the known bugs.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 16.03.2007, 01:21
Ok.
1 ) Gold and honor are not hard to get at all so items builds are not balanced by making them more expensive. If this is not true for you...well shit how are you using your hero and do you have a team?
2 ) Crit is powerful not because you get a average 30% more damage each attack (etc) but that you have a chance every hit to do a extra 50% damage. Just because you crit on one hit doesnt mean you cant crit the next hit, it may be unlikely but I saw it happened allot with the no-dachi. That is why crit is so amazing and powerful.
3 ) So tegeus you dont think these items are balanced but you want them in as they are anyway? why? I dont get it :S
4 ) If you removed attack speed from ninja tos and jadeblades then the attack speed item mite be a little more balanced.
5 ) No one that I no of in KoNL liked there being attack speed on jade blades or ninja tos. They where the reson for the first ever (nicknamed) "dota builds. So stop trying to say that if we do not like the attack speed item we shouldnt like the attack speed on ninja to and jadeblade, because we never did. Ok?
6 ) A way of balancing crit and the attack speed item would be to make them org effect so you would have to choose between attack speed, life steal, crit or kobun.
7 ) The problem with these items is not with them, it is with how they would work in the game these items as they where originally proposed will break the yari and the shinobi.
8 ) The problem with damage return as a passive is that it means that ever thing that is hitting you, not just what you are hitting takes damage. you say that the person attacking you only takes a bit more damage but the spawns are all dieing from attacking you, so your creep start attacking the hero because there is nothing else to kill...
the spawned units are the key to SL, and the key to victory in SL.
9 ) i have no problem with katanas being taken out. i have only ever seen pubs using them.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 16.03.2007, 05:53
I, honestly, am proud of all of you. The sqabling has seemed to dwindle down a bit and discussion is becoming civilized and progressional finally ^.^
Umm, a few things. Love the activateable thorns idea that may balence it sure. I can sorta see the item class idea(wepon, armor, etc) but I dunno, something about it seems wrong...Yeah, don't much like the attack speed buff on items...I basically only ever got items when I was in a random pub game and noone was pooling anyway, or got mad. Umm yeah agree, more items would increase the rambo mindset over teamwork. And...umm..oh yeah! crit isn't the %dmg per attack number wise it is the fact that you can get the big dmg because it can happen sucessfully, I saw a dachi in one game hit 13crits in a row O.O(not exactually 13, but it was definatly more than 10...)
Balence suggestions for the items, the activateable thorns could work, or you can have(may sounds stupid) have it turn on and off and when on lower your armor and/or take dps of course that idea would require a higher damge return number depending on the other numbers.
The IAS item, either make it weaker or make all the other IAS wepons weaker or remove the IAS, or make IAS an orb.
Crit...umm yeah...I can't think of anything to balence crit...maybe make it an orb?
(note pub game doesn't mean pubstomp, it was a game hosted by some1 outta clan where no or few clan members joined)
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 16.03.2007, 07:06
Excellent.
Everyone has calmed down like id hoped and some really good stuff is being said.
First off, I'd like to apologise to Tegeus, while your posts were somewhat heated because of what i said, my response in the form of that post was in response from that exact comment, which not only myself, but -alot- of people saw it as a blatant sucking up, whether or not it was i still wish to say sorry.
I dont think I have any more to say than i have already, if we have 20 of us posting at the same time everyone gets something slightly different and we end up going in circles.
I also apologise to anyone who might have taken offense to anything i have said in my posts, nothing was personal. Cheers guys.
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 16.03.2007, 09:46hmmm
lol shadow is your avatar pic the guy from red ninja? that was a feakin awsome movie
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 16.03.2007, 14:07
Lyncor: Quote: These (Still imba in my opinion) items facilitate far more powerful hero builds than previously possible, which will lead to a lesser degree of teamwork, skill and strategy being necessary to do well in the game. Furthermore, if these are added, then it will facilitate the further adding of items that allow hero builds that are more powerful still. The more powerful the heroes are due to items, the less skill/teamwork/strategy matters in mid-late game - which, incidentally, is the part where SL usually gets really really fun BECAUSE of the skill/teamwork/strategy required. That is fact. Therefore, to end this trend before it starts (Oh wait, it has started already) we need to stop putting in powerful items and instead spend precious development time on more worthwhile things such as adding new (Player skill & teamwork based and balanced) heroes, and fixing the known bugs.
Okay, thank you for that clarification. I hope you won't mind if I (semi-)formalise your argument as follows:
P1) These items lead (directly and indirectly) to more powerful hero builds.
P2) The more powerful hero builds get, the less skill/teamwork/strategy is involved.
P3) It is desirable that the game involve as much skill/teamwork/strategy as possible.
C) It is undesirable that these items be introduced into the game.
No one can argue with P3, but I dispute P1. Firstly, damage return is not more powerful than the already existing immolation, 30% IAS is not more powerful than a Ninja-To (when you consider the damage bonus, and the low base damage of most heroes--I would show you the mathcraft, but I'm sure I'd be accused of only caring about the numbers again), and 10% to crit for 1.5x can never be more powerful than a Master Katana. As I've said before, considered in terms of power density per slot, these items do not 'make SL items more powerful'. They only add variety.
I also wish you would clarify what you mean by skill/teamwork/strategy, and how exactly stronger items would detract from it. No amount of stackedness can ever replace proper knowledge of your hero's skills, how they should be used with those of your teammates, when to pusha and when to def, etc. Case in point: do you remember that early version of SL, where Yari was bugged? I still managed to win about half of the games where someone abused the Yari by getting my team to focus on the objective (killing raxes) while our opponent was usually trying to pwn heroes all by himself. If it can be done (albeit with difficulty) against a hero with the HP and damage of literally 4 normal heroes (and even more the lonegr the game drags), I am damn sure it can be done against a guy with (omg!) damage return, 30% IAS, a crappy crit etc.
Anton: Quote: 1 ) Gold and honor are not hard to get at all so items builds are not balanced by making them more expensive. If this is not true for you...well shit how are you using your hero and do you have a team?
If two teams are equally skilled, gold and honour will certainly not flow easily for everyone. If someone is pwning, someone else must be getting pwned. If there is a Ronin/Yari pair running around shedding blood like water, there is damn certainly going to be a Yumi or something on the other side who is not killing jack.
Plus, every unit of gold and honour you spend on items is gold and honour not spent on Shrines. Obviously there is a balancing effect in increasing the cost of an item.
Quote: 2 ) Crit is powerful not because you get a average 30% more damage each attack (etc) but that you have a chance every hit to do a extra 50% damage. Just because you crit on one hit doesnt mean you cant crit the next hit, it may be unlikely but I saw it happened allot with the no-dachi. That is why crit is so amazing and powerful.
Bullshit. The opposite also applies: just because you haven't critted for 99 attacks in a row doesn't mean you will finally get a crit on the 100th attack. You might never get a crit. That is the nature of chance-based abilities. If that makes crit 'so amazing and powerful', I guess lotteries must be really awesome. Then again, some people do think lotteries are really awesome, which is why I guess they are often referred to as 'a tax on people who can't do math'.
Quote: 3 ) So tegeus you dont think these items are balanced but you want them in as they are anyway? why? I dont get it :S
I think the items may or may not be balanced depending on how much they cost. I don't know how much they cost, so I don't know if they are balanced. Therefore I have been defending 20% damage return, 30% IAS, 10% for 1.5x damage crit, etc. as balanced bonuses for an item to have, which is not at all the same as saying that the items as they now exist in the beta (at whatever specific gold costs) are in themselves balanced.
Quote: 5 ) No one that I no of in KoNL liked there being attack speed on jade blades or ninja tos. They where the reson for the first ever (nicknamed) "dota builds. So stop trying to say that if we do not like the attack speed item we shouldnt like the attack speed on ninja to and jadeblade, because we never did. Ok?
You don't have to like an item to agree that it doesn't destroy game balance. Do Jadeblade and Ninja-To destroy game balance? Do you guys avoid them because they are imba, or do you actually avoid them because shrines and consumables are simply a better choice?
Quote: 6 ) A way of balancing crit and the attack speed item would be to make them org effect so you would have to choose between attack speed, life steal, crit or kobun.
Making them orb effects would be an extremely awkward way of doing things, if it were even possible. It would be much easier to just restrict what you can hold in your inventory. If you think this should be done, I suggest you start a thread on it, as it is complex enough a suggestion to merit it, IMHO.
Quote: 7 ) The problem with these items is not with them, it is with how they would work in the game these items as they where originally proposed will break the yari and the shinobi.
Then suggest how they should be tweaked. 'OMG imba items gtfo of SL!!!' is an unhelpful and presumptuous response. Even if you think these items are unbalanced, they are still balanceable, so tell us how you think they should be balanced. This is what Reaper did.
Quote: 8 ) The problem with damage return as a passive is that it means that ever thing that is hitting you, not just what you are hitting takes damage. you say that the person attacking you only takes a bit more damage but the spawns are all dieing from attacking you, so your creep start attacking the hero because there is nothing else to kill...
Creeps will deal themselves seriously trivial amounts of damage from attacking you compared to what immolation would do to them. (And I have mentioned on many occasions that immo poses balance problems--at almost any value you can assign it, it will either own creeps too hard or do next to nothing against heroes). If you are concerned with this possibility, maybe you should look at replacing immo with damage return instead.
Quote: 9 ) i have no problem with katanas being taken out. i have only ever seen pubs using them.
That's because Katana sucks and is a terrible investment.
Viziroth: I won't deal with most of your post, because I don't actually disagree with much of it, but here's the key thing-- Quote: Umm yeah agree, more items would increase the rambo mindset over teamwork.
This is basically the idea behind most of the objections, as far as I can see. And I don't buy it one bit. More items encourages ramboing and discourages teamwork? Sure, in noobs, and in the supershort run. But after a couple of games, it will hit them that hey, whoring Ninja-Tos doesn't seem to get me anywhere against these guys who just get boots, Shrines and consumables, and actually work as a team to gank, take down expos and push; I wonder why?
Quote: And...umm..oh yeah! crit isn't the %dmg per attack number wise it is the fact that you can get the big dmg because it can happen sucessfully, I saw a dachi in one game hit 13crits in a row O.O(not exactually 13, but it was definatly more than 10...)
Of course, but the No Dachi is much more likely to experience such a string of crits than a user of the crit item, since he has twice the chance of getting a crit on any given attack. And even if the item user does get such a string of crits, the effect will be much less than that of the No Dachi, since every time the No Dachi crits, he gets 150% more damage, but when the item user crits, he gets only 50% more damage.
And again, I emphasise that %-based bonuses are a double-edged sword. Look at it in real-life terms: say I'm a millionaire who's feeling generous enough to offer random people on a forum money. I give you two options:
1) Take $100,000 from me.
2) Flip a coin. If it's heads, you get $200,000. If it's tails, you get nothing.
Which option would you take?
SP: Quote: First off, I'd like to apologise to Tegeus, while your posts were somewhat heated because of what i said, my response in the form of that post was in response from that exact comment, which not only myself, but -alot- of people saw it as a blatant sucking up, whether or not it was i still wish to say sorry.
You may wish to note for future reference that in polite society, apologies are not usually accompanied by a reiteration of the claim ('I'm sorry I called your wife a whore, I am. I apologise completely. But you know, I really did see her sucking off the mailman, and so did lots of other people. . . .'). :roll:
Apology accepted, nonetheless.
Re: Item Balance
RoboFerret - 16.03.2007, 17:29
By the way Tegeus, if you look at my first post, you'll notice that I 'did' say to try to get items to be "as equal as possible", so when you made a post on page 11 saying that if the item is not overpowered on it's best hero, and not undepowered on the worst, you were agreeing with me. :P
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 16.03.2007, 17:51i would....
to tegeus i would take the coint flip :) because:
A: i wouldn't be losing anyhting if i did
And B: I am a chronic gambler
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 17.03.2007, 06:02
@RoboFerret: Not exactly. I'm prepared to accept that an item may be underpowered on its worst user, or even it's three worst users. The idea is that there should be a significant group who can use it well without being imba with it.
But yeah, I agree with you in the main, sure.
@Cry-Ed: Okay, fair enough. But what if instead of extending this offer to you for free, I had first collected $10k from you (and for whatever reason, you had agreed to pay it)? This is the situation in SL, where you actually are giving up something (gold, honour) in order to get an item.
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 17.03.2007, 09:21hehe
assuming i had an extra 10 grand around i probably still would do it because ..... i love to gamble...
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 17.03.2007, 16:05
The odds would go for playing. You could lose only $10000 but win $190000. I'd do it too.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 18.03.2007, 09:37
*brain explodes* aw man now i got clean that up :(
dear tegeus:
ok gold, honor....its only hard to get in the early game, honor is only hard to get if you have a full game of good players . wich means that, why is it inportant to no the price? iff you need gold then you ask your team mates to pool you a little. iff items are a better investment than shrines, then why pool for shrines. if you can win with items then why get shrines? :) that disproves 2-3 of your points.
p.s. ok the point is you can get thorns and immolation, also the "totally random chance" that you mite be able to do some one allot of damage (and some times that is all you need). So basically these items will make the game "easier" for the individual, it will also make it so you can abuse some skills.
yours bissy cleaning up his brain.
Re: Item Balance
SketchOfNight - 18.03.2007, 11:32
The long and short of it is as follows: I generally stand by my clanmates and agree with the majority of their reasons for opposing the implementation of overly powerful weapons. SL is steadily losing it's flavor and becoming just another AoS - but with ninja! This really isn't good for it, in my opinion, from a balance standpoint based on current mechanics or from even just the identity standpoint. Why would I play Samurai Legends vDOTA when I could simply play DOTA? Frankly, I wouldn't play either.
Let's look at a few choice bits before I collapse after two days solid of moving:
Crit Chance: Unfortunately, your argument against the string of crits argument is entirely pointless, if taken into proper consideration. By never getting a single crit, what has a character lost? Exactly 0 damage. They have never gained anything, true, but they have never lost any damage. Sure, you can try and argue that the money or points invested in the critical strike granting item/ability were a waste and could've been used to apply damage in another way, but that will NEVER happen in a game of Warcraft 3. Ever. The occurance of a string of critical hits, on the other hand, is ALWAYS devastating. Chop, chop, chop and you're dead in some cases, especially when combined with appropriate ability usage. Let us also consider the cases of ranged combatants. Would you like a Yumi specced out with her damage/range extender raining crits on your head while you try and get to her? I don't imagine you would. Now what about the Yari? The Yari is a tank. The Yari should die extremely rarely. His focus is on life and death stalls, but what happens when you give him the potential to double damage? The life bonuses are effectively increased by the same amount as the crit chance because he's getting in that much more damage, thereby damaging the opponents that much more, and therefore encouraging them to retreat rather than having him have to retreat. Or they might die if they're stupid, but that's kind of a given.
Damage Return: Though I'm against this on principle of flavor, I do not think it is that big a deal. The armor actually decreases the damage bonus. It can occasionally be a thorn in your side, but this is true of many things. My overall stance: "Whatever."
IAS: Crit chance + IAS = pain. Let's also consider why this is so important. The % itself is not as big a concern as the fact that you get this percentage for only one slot. As any SL player knows, slots can be important when you get into a drawn-out match, and that bonus is nothing to sneeze at.
I'm going to leave it at this because I am officially dead. No more brainpower to devote to this, it is time for a well-deserved rest.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 18.03.2007, 17:05
For those who haven't yet noted the status of all the new items and most of the old items mentioned here: They are all "Legendary".
Anton:
Quote: ok the point is you can get thorns and immolation
Not true. You can only get one of them. Both "Legendary".
SketchOfNight:
Quote: IAS: Crit chance + IAS = pain.
IAS: Crit chance + IAS = Impossible, because you cannot have both new items. Only possible on heroes who have critical strike as a skill. There are no longer heroes with critical-strike like the N-D's chance to deal 4x damage. Only heroes that have a chance to deal AoE damage that equals only to somewhere near 2x damage.
This also goes for all older items. You can't make the Yari mega-imba by whoring items like Nine-Headed Dragon, Oni armor, Immolation and Samurai armor. As long as he has only 1 of those items he is not impossible to kill. Just harder.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 18.03.2007, 17:06
...?
Forb?
Legendary means you can only have one of that specific item. You can have 6 legendaries, just not 6 of the same item.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 18.03.2007, 17:09
Then I must have missed something.
If it's not so at the moment, then would it hurt anything to limit Legendary items further? 1 or 2 Legendary items in total. No matter if they're the same item or not.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 18.03.2007, 22:36
Anton: Quote: ok gold, honor....its only hard to get in the early game, honor is only hard to get if you have a full game of good players .
I believe a game should be balanced on the assumption that it is being played by good players. Disagree?
Quote: wich means that, why is it inportant to no the price? iff you need gold then you ask your team mates to pool you a little.
So it doesn't matter whether an item costs 1 gold or 1000000 gold?
Quote: iff items are a better investment than shrines, then why pool for shrines.
Exactly: if. Guess what? They're not.
Quote: if you can win with items then why get shrines?
Again that 'if'. Guess what? You can't
And what is with all this veneration for pooling for shrines? All it takes is one savvy player and five other guys who are willing to send him gold and honour. Does effective shrine use take skill? Sure. Does it take teamwork? If you think so, make your case.
Quote: p.s. ok the point is you can get thorns and immolation
I don't see how it can be 'the point' when no one mentioned the stacking effect of thorns + immo on the first 1.5 pages of this discussion.
Quote: also the "totally random chance" that you mite be able to do some one allot of damage (and some times that is all you need).
Sure, and sometimes you can jump out of a moving vehicle and not even get a scratch. And sometimes that is all you need. Your point?
Quote: So basically these items will make the game "easier" for the individual
Non sequitur.
Quote: it will also make it so you can abuse some skills.
Non sequitur.
SketchofNight: Quote: Crit Chance: Unfortunately, your argument against the string of crits argument is entirely pointless, if taken into proper consideration. By never getting a single crit, what has a character lost? Exactly 0 damage. They have never gained anything, true, but they have never lost any damage. Sure, you can try and argue that the money or points invested in the critical strike granting item/ability were a waste and could've been used to apply damage in another way
I don't need to 'try and argue' it. It is true by definition.
Quote: but that will NEVER happen in a game of Warcraft 3. Ever.
Care to guess at the odds that you'll make, say, 21 attacks in a row and not get a single crit?
About 10%.
Which happens to be the probability of your getting a crit on any one attack.
Still think it's so unlikely?
Quote: The occurance of a string of critical hits, on the other hand, is ALWAYS devastating. Chop, chop, chop and you're dead in some cases, especially when combined with appropriate ability usage.
Sure, wonderful. Care to guess the odds of your getting those mere three consecutive crits on any three given attacks? 0.1%. Yes, one in a thousand. And what happens when this miracle occurs? What wondrous payoff do you get? Well, it is as if you had hit him 4.5 times instead of 3 times. Exciting!
Incidentally, 0.1% is also around the same chance as attacking 65 times in a row and not getting a single crit. No, that's not a typo. 65 attacks without a crit..
Quote: Let us also consider the cases of ranged combatants. Would you like a Yumi specced out with her damage/range extender raining crits on your head while you try and get to her? I don't imagine you would.
I'd much rather face such a Yumi than a Yumi who actually went for decent +damage items instead. If you disagree, it means you need to take a stats class or three.
Quote: Now what about the Yari? The Yari is a tank. The Yari should die extremely rarely. His focus is on life and death stalls, but what happens when you give him the potential to double damage?
What happens? Well, for a start, you find yourself on an alternate reality, because on reality A, 1.5x is not double.
Quote: The life bonuses are effectively increased by the same amount as the crit chance because he's getting in that much more damage, thereby damaging the opponents that much more
Those life bonuses would be increased a lot more by additional IAS or straight damage.
@Forb: As Skirn's pointed out, you're mistaken, but it certainly does seem like stricter restrictions would solve a lot of problems--as I have suggested already.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 19.03.2007, 05:05
tengaus i mean no disrespect but your arguments are flawed.
how often do you get a full 6vs6 of actual good players? im yet to have one this year.(when i say good players i mean people who can do there job as there hero and not die and communicate with there team, and work with the team).
1 mill is extreme(other wise yes 1000 gold will not change much) but 10k is not, not for a good item build. to a experienced player the price of a item is of little consequence.
we no items are not better than shrines ... at least they were not, now i duno. if they are still better than items then they way i see things that wont stay the same for long.
you where going on about immolation being better than thorns according to numbers but you can get both! thats my point, its not just a ill get one or the other, you get both and just wade through the dead body's.
why is it not important that these items will make it easier ( i mean allot easier for pubs to pown everyone), like walk up to ppl and near inta-gib them(or at lest in mare seconds)
why is it not important that items mean you can abuse passive skills like ronins attack speed or yumis range/damage skill? should you base the sole use of a hero around getting items that make your passive godly?
um the crits thing... every time you attack some one you have 10% chance to crit and 90% chance to not the amount of times in a row that you are attacking dose not change this. if you did math in latter years at high school you would no this. just cos you attack some one 100 times dose not mean you will only crit 10 times of thows 100 attacks
hay if you want to face a yumi with this build then sure im game to be that yumi any time :D hell ill take you on with out these items to prove that items are not needed, if you want :P
he said " potential to double damage" just cos he got it slightly wrong dose not make his point less valid, the yari already dose allot of damage.
Im all for forbidden's idea about limiting legendary items though, so that you can only have a couple of them.
Re: Item Balance
SketchOfNight - 19.03.2007, 06:28
I woke up this morning and reflected on my post while getting ready to head out and deal with the process of cleaning following moving out of my old apartment. The first thought that came to my mind is "I think I said double damage instead of 1.5." The second thought that came to my mind is "That Tegeus kid is going to pounce on every minor point."
Both thoughts were proven to be true upon reading the posts as of last night.
What you have not addressed are the true issues, the heart and soul of the problem, but I did not expect you to. By grounding your argument in minor issues where you believe you can be proven right you give the overall impression of having a stronger argument to the casual observer. You seem to know this argument style well, a true forum politician.
Quote: I don't need to 'try and argue' it. It is true by definition.
Your response to my comment about your flawed argument was evasive. Please address this. This is a rather conceited approach built on the assumption that not only can you see that you must naturally be right, but so can everyone else. Naturally everyone must agree with you!
Addressing the real issues, any game in which a character attacks only 21 times is a game in which the character could not have conceivably been playing well, nor is it likely that they were active enough to get the item in question. So yes, I do think it's very unlikely.
Quote: Incidentally, 0.1% is also around the same chance as attacking 65 times in a row and not getting a single crit. No, that's not a typo. 65 attacks without a crit..
So by your very own math and the logic you used to argue against the string of crits theory, you concede that the odds of a game in which a character never crits are extremely low. One in a thousand, even.
On an additional (but related) note, does anyone happen to know how WC3 calculates random events? I would be interested in knowing just how random our "random" truely is, because I frequently see multiple criticals even in maps with low crit chances. There is mathematical knowledge, there is knowledge gained from experience of a somewhat instinctual level and somewhere between the two is where I suspect the truth lies. If you would like to continue slinging numbers at me, please do some research into the mathematical systems utilized by the engine and the way in which they determine true results and get back to me. I would be very interested in knowing what you discover.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 19.03.2007, 07:54
Anton: Quote: how often do you get a full 6vs6 of actual good players? im yet to have one this year.(when i say good players i mean people who can do there job as there hero and not die and communicate with there team, and work with the team).
So you want nooK to balance the map on the assumption that there will be noobs in the game?
Quote: 1 mill is extreme(other wise yes 1000 gold will not change much) but 10k is not, not for a good item build. to a experienced player the price of a item is of little consequence.
Your answer betrays the exaggeration in your earlier claim. Clearly price is not irrelevant. There is a price point where a given item is just not worth getting even assuming everyone is willing to pool to you, simply because you can get better returns on shrines, mercs or other items. Would you take Jadeblade for 10k? 15k? 20k? 50k?
Price is a useful balancing mechanism. Full-stop.
Quote: we no items are not better than shrines ... at least they were not, now i duno. if they are still better than items then they way i see things that wont stay the same for long.
I've already pointed out how these items are not any better on a per slot basis than items already in the game.
Quote: you where going on about immolation being better than thorns according to numbers but you can get both! thats my point, its not just a ill get one or the other, you get both and just wade through the dead body's.
My point was that Skirn (for one) was claiming that thorns alone--no mention of having immo as well--tipped the balance in a game he played. I pointed out that immo would have had an even greater effect.
Your point is a valid one--I even posted a suggested solution to that when I replied to it, in case you missed it, so you can't accuse me of ignoring it--but it is not the point everyone else has been making.
Quote: why is it not important that these items will make it easier ( i mean allot easier for pubs to pown everyone), like walk up to ppl and near inta-gib them(or at lest in mare seconds)
'Non sequitur' doesn't mean 'not important'. I invite you to look it up.
Also, why do you care how pub players pwn each other? They would still get rocked by a team that goes more heavily into shrines and consumables instead. An anology: it's extremely 'easy' for a total noob to WC3 to mine resources for 1 hour and then just throw his massive army at his opponent and hope to win. If his opponent is just as much of a noob, he might even succeed. It doesn't change the fact that a player who's actually decent would roll him effortlessly using saner methods.
Simply put: these new items unbalance SL about as much as Frost Wyrms unbalance WC3.
Quote: why is it not important that items mean you can abuse passive skills like ronins attack speed or yumis range/damage skill? should you base the sole use of a hero around getting items that make your passive godly?
Again, if you don't know the meaning of a phrase, look it up. I never said it was not important.
That aside:
1) Abuse Ronin's passive? Are you fucking kidding me?
2) Getting attack speed and more damage is 'abusing' a skill that gives you range and damage? Uh, no. It's plainly what you're supposed to do with the skill. The only problem is stopping it from being too effective. When you can demonstrate to me that stacking omgwtfggpwn items on Yumi is more effective than using a more modest item build and pooling for shrines, then we'll talk.
Quote: um the crits thing... every time you attack some one you have 10% chance to crit and 90% chance to not the amount of times in a row that you are attacking dose not change this.
On any given attack, yes. But if you're talking about the odds of a given set of attacks all being crits (as in the example of three consecutive crits given by Sketch), then the number of attacks does affect this, as I'm sure your imba high school math lessons would have told you. :roll:
Quote: if you did math in latter years at high school you would no this. just cos you attack some one 100 times dose not mean you will only crit 10 times of thows 100 attacks
It also doesn't mean you'll crit at all.
Quote: hay if you want to face a yumi with this build then sure im game to be that yumi any time hell ill take you on with out these items to prove that items are not needed, if you want
Your skill vs my skill has nothing to do with this issue.
I play a perfectly adequate Yumi, FYI.
Quote: he said " potential to double damage" just cos he got it slightly wrong dose not make his point less valid, the yari already dose allot of damage.
1) It makes his point exactly half as valid. A hero with 100 damage would get 50 bonus damage on a 1.5x crit, as opposed to 100 bonus damage on a 2x crit. Minor? No.
2) I have already demonstrated elsewhere that the crit chance is no big deal even on a hero with 200 damage. Do I need to repeat myself every time one of you guys pipes up with another 'omg crit r imbahax' comment?
Sketch: Quote: The first thought that came to my mind is "I think I said double damage instead of 1.5." The second thought that came to my mind is "That Tegeus kid is going to pounce on every minor point."
Quote: What you have not addressed are the true issues, the heart and soul of the problem, but I did not expect you to.
The 'heart and soul of the problem' is that people think an item is imba when actually it sucks.
Quote: Your response to my comment about your flawed argument was evasive. Please address this.
It wasn't evasive; it was a statement of a fact I consider obvious. You said: 'Sure, you can try and argue that the money or points invested in the critical strike granting item/ability were a waste [when no critical is procced] and could've been used to apply damage in another way'. This is a logical truth:
P1) Money that has been spent on a chance to deal bonus damage has not been spent on direct bonus damage, and vice versa.
P2) When the chance to deal bonus damage does not proc, no bonus damage is dealt.
P3) When the chance to deal bonus damage does not proc, money has been spent for no bonus damage.
C) When the chance to deal bonus damage does not proc, direct bonus damage has been sacrificed for no bonus damage.
Whether we are referring to one attack without a crit or one hundred attacks without a crit, this is by definition true of that attack or those attacks.
Quote: Addressing the real issues, any game in which a character attacks only 21 times is a game in which the character could not have conceivably been playing well, nor is it likely that they were active enough to get the item in question. So yes, I do think it's very unlikely.
By proposing that people are going to get devastating strings of crits with a regularity that's even worth thinking about, I'm afraid you have raised the bar on what is unlikely.
I'll leave that aside, though. Okay, how many times do you think a hero will attack other heroes in the course of a game? 130, maybe? That would be at least 2 solid minutes of non-stop attacking, which seems pretty generous. The odds of not getting a single crit out of all those is about 1.126 Ũ 10^-6. Sounds pretty unlikely, right? Granted, but you know what? It's more likely to happen than getting 6 crits in a row.
I am trying to impress upon you just how bad 10% for 1.5x damage is, and thus how outlandish your nightmare visions of crit-spamming Yumis and such are. I am not arguing that it is actually likely that you will never get a crit in a given game, as should be obvious from a moment's thought.
Quote: So by your very own math and the logic you used to argue against the string of crits theory, you concede that the odds of a game in which a character never crits are extremely low. One in a thousand, even.
Certainly. That is the whole point of my argument: would you ever bet on the unlikely circumstance that a character will make 21 attacks in a row and not getting a single crit? If not, why do you think we should worry ourselves over an equivalent chance that a character will crit three times in a row and kill someone before he know's happening?
Re: Item Balance
SketchOfNight - 19.03.2007, 08:36
First off, looks like I'm in the valley range of your graph there. Fun with MS paint and fictional figures, hooray!
Secondly, the point is not that everyone is screaming 'imba', but rather the fact that the direction SL is taking in general reeks of DotA. Clearly the direction is gaining support, but then again, DotA is pretty damn popular too. That doesn't make it good.
Thirdly, you're not treading any new ground here. Your argument is that because the possibility of never dealing a crit exists the item is inherently balanced. My argument is that because the possibility of multiple crits (and I did not specifically state that that number had to be three) exists the item is potentially unbalanced.
In other words, you're saying "Because it's -possible- that nothing bad might ever happen then everything must be okay."
I'm saying "It's possible that this could cause problems and accordingly we should be concerned."
You need to think of things in the realistic sense. :roll:
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 19.03.2007, 10:56
Sketch: Quote: First off, looks like I'm in the valley range of your graph there. Fun with MS paint and fictional figures, hooray!
It was a joke, and an extemely polite response to an unfounded and condescending remark. Be thankful.
Quote: Your argument is that because the possibility of never dealing a crit exists the item is inherently balanced.
No, my argument is that you should not conclude that an item is unbalanced based on a possible result that is extremely statistcially unlikely.
Quote: My argument is that because the possibility of multiple crits (and I did not specifically state that that number had to be three) exists the item is potentially unbalanced.
Oh, so multiple crits can mean two? Great, you made two attacks and it is as if you made three. That's hardly going to 'insta-gib' anyone.
Quote: You need to think of things in the realistic sense.
You claim that because there's a one-in-a-thousand chance that you'll attack three times and get 4.5 attacks worth of damage, the item is 'potentially unbalanced', and I'm the one who needs a reality check? No, sorry.
Enough of this theorycraft bullshit. I'm good at it, but I'm not the one who started it, and in the end it proves nothing. Put the 10% chance to crit for 1.5x in, price it according the the Katana, beta test it thoroughly, and empirical evidence will prove me right. No one will be buying this item after five games. Simple as that.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 19.03.2007, 17:20
lol saw the price of the item...well let's say noobs won't get it and most pros don't want it o.O...umm but looking at the new shop...I agreed with maybe one item being in there.....also the +7 int thing is kinda useless hmm?
Re: Item Balance
RoboFerret - 19.03.2007, 17:32
Was looking at the new items, and I have to say that orb thingy that shoots gives you 200 vision and some stats(can't remember the name) is a piece of utter crap. :P I like the idea of it, but it's way too expensive for it's worth. 2500 gold and 5 honor I think, means it will never be bought unless the team maxed wealth shrines and has gotten tons of kills, and just wants to get it for fun. It just doesn't seem worth the cost.
Also, I took the time to calculate some of Tegeus' claims, and if I didn't do it wrong (just starting to learn this stuff) he's correct. That's not counting if the wc3 probability thingy is wierd though.
Re: Item Balance
SketchOfNight - 19.03.2007, 23:41
Heheh. Is poor little Tegeus all riled up? Awww, yes he is! How cute.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 20.03.2007, 02:29
just because his math is rite dose not mean his conclusions are. they don't seem to follow for me...i gess ill have to get my notes from my uni on assessing logic( man thats going back a bit) paper and see if his conclusion is actulaly valid given his premises are valid(will have to check to :) )
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 20.03.2007, 05:54
Insult without a rebuttal? How junior high of you, Sketch.
Anton: If it'd make it any easier for yout to check, I'd be happy to formalise any of those arguments for you.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 20.03.2007, 13:49
The WC3 engine doesn't take probababilty to such a specific sence. To it the 10% set on it a suggestion. It's like playing with poorly loaded dice, most of the time you will indeed get the number it's loaded for, but every so often it will next a number next to it. Basically the engine has it so that you will get the crit at least once every so often. This was so that in ladder games there would always be at least one of the % skills would go off. I'm not sure of the actual time or % leanience on this lil flaw and I'm not 100% sure of it's existance. But I'm sure I heard it somewhere b4 discussing the coding of the game. I'm sorry if this information turns out false.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 20.03.2007, 16:34
No offence, Viz, but please cite your source. I was under the impression that WC3's RNG simply uses the computer's internal clock for seed values, the most obvious solution. It may not be random enough for like, cryptography, but it should definitely be good enough for crit chances.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 20.03.2007, 21:14
Note: This is REALLY irrelevant. I just wanna say that I don't understand what people see in TV-shows like The Bold& the Beautiful and other TV-soaps. Watching people argue on forums is much more entertaining :D
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 20.03.2007, 23:08
I am sorry but I read that like back when I started playing warcraft and can't remember the source T.T so technically that may have been patched out anyway ^.^ But yeah it may seed from the computers clock... But it is incredibly unlikely never to get a crit.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 21.03.2007, 03:48
Hey guys. You know how everything has been flames and theories here for the items?
Welcome hard evidence!
TDO and I decided to test out exactly what we wanted in an controlled environment, replay will be sent on request.
Test 1: According to Tegeus, Katana > Crit blade, is that true?
Notes about experiment: I am the unluckiest person I know. Give me a passive luckbased ability, even when its at 50%, its closer to .01% for me. And I was the one testing Moonblade.
How done: Secluded area, Yari didnt attack. Both level 20 heroes, 3 tests with Katana, 3 tests with Moonblade.
First time Katana: 1 minute.
Second time Katana: 58 seconds.
Third time Katana: 1:08 (Note: Yari Onid.)
First time Moonblade: 56 seconds.
Second time Moonblade: 58 seconds (Note: Yari used Battlerage)
Third time Monblade: 1:06. (Note: Yari used Oni AND battlerage.)
Test 2: Oni Armor
We complained, is our complaints true?
Notes about experiment: We were very excited to see the results.
How done: Same as last. First time with Oni Armor, second time with immolation, third time with both equipped. Yari would not physically attack or nuke, but try to live as long as possible. Ronin would begin with FD, then just use physical attacks.
Oni Armor: 250 health left on Ronin (Note: Accidentally attacked twice.)
Immolation: 750 health left on Ronin (Note: Accidentally attacked three times.)
Both: Ronin died. (Note: Accidentally attacked three times
Only one was needed to kill however.)
Test 3: Oni/Immolation on a Yari for crowd control.
Notes about experiment: We overestimated this, we admit
How done: Ronin made sure that there was massive mid push that the Yari would deal with by simply attacking and using survival skills. Ronin would not help creeps.
What happened: Every Ashigaru and Yari cavalry died before the hero did, was unable to kill archers before dying however.
Notes: We also did an unofficial testing of the attack speed items. Berserk, gloves, ninja-to, not even a Jadeblade added. Yari was devastating with them, Ronin threw in Moonblade and became able to kill swarms in seconds.
Make your own conclusions from these results.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 21.03.2007, 06:34
good to see some practical steps taken rather than arguing with no real headway being made. :) GJ skirn
hopefully some people will see the mentioned replay as conclusive evidence of said statements. if not hopefully people will do there own testing to show that this is incorrect.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 21.03.2007, 08:44
I need to know a few things:
How much does Moonblade cost and what other stats does it give?
What other items did the heroes have in test 1 and test 2? What level were they?
@Anton: Please remember that unbalancedness (which may be the case) is not the same as unbalanceability (which is what SP et al have been arguing for since post 1). I will be quite happy to concede that I may have been wrong on specifics--it seems I was very much mistaken about damage return, at least--for this particular version, but my main point, which is that these items are balanceable for SL, stands.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 21.03.2007, 09:14
Quote: Test 1: According to Tegeus, Katana > Crit blade, is that true?
Notes about experiment: I am the unluckiest person I know. Give me a passive luckbased ability, even when its at 50%, its closer to .01% for me. And I was the one testing Moonblade.
How done: Secluded area, Yari didnt attack. Both level 20 heroes, 3 tests with Katana, 3 tests with Moonblade.
First time Katana: 1 minute.
Second time Katana: 58 seconds.
Third time Katana: 1:08 (Note: Yari Onid.)
First time Moonblade: 56 seconds.
Second time Moonblade: 58 seconds (Note: Yari used Battlerage)
Third time Monblade: 1:06. (Note: Yari used Oni AND battlerage.)
Seems perfetcly fine to me, both seem to be nearly equal, except Katana costs 2500 and Moonblade 3700...
Quote: Test 2: Oni Armor
We complained, is our complaints true?
Notes about experiment: We were very excited to see the results.
How done: Same as last. First time with Oni Armor, second time with immolation, third time with both equipped. Yari would not physically attack or nuke, but try to live as long as possible. Ronin would begin with FD, then just use physical attacks.
Oni Armor: 250 health left on Ronin (Note: Accidentally attacked twice.)
Immolation: 750 health left on Ronin (Note: Accidentally attacked three times.)
Both: Ronin died. (Note: Accidentally attacked three times
Only one was needed to kill however.)
"but try to live as long as possible" -> what does that mean?
Quote: Test 3: Oni/Immolation on a Yari for crowd control.
Notes about experiment: We overestimated this, we admit
How done: Ronin made sure that there was massive mid push that the Yari would deal with by simply attacking and using survival skills. Ronin would not help creeps.
What happened: Every Ashigaru and Yari cavalry died before the hero did, was unable to kill archers before dying however.
So what now?
Seems like one combination is too strong, which seems to be easy fixable.
tegeus: Moonblade costs 3700 (Ninja-to + 2500) and 5 honor.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 21.03.2007, 12:13
In your test 3, did you use Shrines or were there only the basic archers? If you didn't you need to note Ninjas with weak spot and Elite Archers. They will drastically reduce the Yari's (or any other hero for that matter) survivability.
Test 1: Important thing is that while Yari was Oni, he didn't attack. Thus he didn't gain any life. If he had attacked normally, I doubt he would have died in such a short time. Also, note that you fought in a secluded place. There were no units there to help in the killing of either hero. If one of the heroes had spent his money on items and the other on shrines, the result would probably change. In Test 2 the Yari had an Oni armor/Immolation/both. If you think of the same sitation with both having spawn units as support, but Ronin having shrines (most likely Night or Fire) because he used his money on shrines while the Yari used it on his items, the Yari would die faster and the Ronin would take less damage. Also I doubt any Ronin would use only one FD+ melee to kill a Yari. Nor would the Yari simply stand there and not attack while the Ronin was beating the crap out of him.
PS. I'm not saying the test results are flawed. They just don't account for everything. Have you ever ran across a situation like this in 1 of your inhouse- or even pubgames? :D
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 21.03.2007, 13:12
Why ruin a perfectly good inhouse by playing a severely unbalanced version?
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 22.03.2007, 01:59
Quote: What other items did the heroes have in test 1 and test 2? What level were they?
Only weapons used in Test 1 was Katana and Moonblade. Katana was sold for the Moonblade when the test switched. Both heroes were level 20, nothing else was added (Well, they had potions, but didn't use it. That was so they could level up faster earlier.)
Quote: "but try to live as long as possible" -> what does that mean?
Skilled use of Oni and Battlerage for maximum effect of the extra HP.
Quote: In your test 3, did you use Shrines or were there only the basic archers? If you didn't you need to note Ninjas with weak spot and Elite Archers. They will drastically reduce the Yari's (or any other hero for that matter) survivability.
Only basic archers. However, it was a massive push, at least 2 dozen archers were shooting him, and he killed at least 8 Yari calvary, and countless Ashigaru.
Quote:
Test 1: Important thing is that while Yari was Oni, he didn't attack. Thus he didn't gain any life. If he had attacked normally, I doubt he would have died in such a short time. Also, note that you fought in a secluded place. There were no units there to help in the killing of either hero. If one of the heroes had spent his money on items and the other on shrines, the result would probably change. In Test 2 the Yari had an Oni armor/Immolation/both. If you think of the same sitation with both having spawn units as support, but Ronin having shrines (most likely Night or Fire) because he used his money on shrines while the Yari used it on his items, the Yari would die faster and the Ronin would take less damage. Also I doubt any Ronin would use only one FD+ melee to kill a Yari. Nor would the Yari simply stand there and not attack while the Ronin was beating the crap out of him.
The test was done to prevent any variables from messing with the results.
It was not meant to act like a real game, merely get the numbers out there.
Nor is it SUPPOSED to account for something, just give a control group for the theories to base themselves on.
Now, to go into the theories themselves as the non-objective Skirn...
Only Honor used to get the items would be for the Oni armor, 5 I believe. Cost is 2000 for Immol, 2.5k (I think) for Oni. 4.5k total, right? That's a a shrine and a half in a gold, and only half a shrine in honor. This could very easily happen in an inhouse game when 2-4 Wealth Shrines are built at the beginning, it's not uncommon to have excess cash.
Add in the Yari was NOT attacking the Ronin, and you'll understand why we object so vehemently to it. Throw in the Yari actually openly trying to kill the Ronin, and it wouldn't even be a fight. Yari would win without effort, even against a very skilled Ronin. After all, a great deal of a skilled Ronin is knowing how to strike without being striked back. If he's taking a ton of damage for those times when the Yari is stunned, and a single good Whirl will kill him...
It's simply unfair.
Re: Item Balance
SketchOfNight - 23.03.2007, 16:59
Hell, Tegeus, I realized I was wasting my time on you and this thread. We both know things won't get fixed for the better at this rate and you're clearly as stubborn as it gets.
It is amusing to watch you on the brink of fury, though.
Re: Item Balance
Omerta - 23.03.2007, 17:27
Let's take a short break of this topic, shall we?
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 19.04.2007, 11:11
The new items are balanced. Period. They don't get much more balanced than they are, mostly, they all suck. Hardly worth getting. They're not any better than the current items we have, immolation > damage return, period. And hell, no one got that, did they? It comes down to the fact that the best items are those that have been around for a while, jadeblade, ninja to, etc. The bracers are ok, but really I'd pick a ninja to first.
Before we go screaming IMBA IMBA IMBA! Really you should look at the items... alot harder than you obviously did.
If we want to talk imba?... look at the new hero.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 19.04.2007, 11:53
No need to try and convince us, we're set in our thoughts. Anyway, this argument is long dead as KoNL has abandoned nooK and 0.91 onwards.
No worries, keep your items. :)
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 19.04.2007, 16:15
/flame
You didntīt abandon me I did abandon you.
Funny that your clan name still has my name in it.
And you still haven`t posted why any item except Oni armor is imba (which was nerfed a bit).
/normal
No one cares if you donīt like the new versions or quit SL or whatever. If you donīt like the new versions just donīt post here. You behave like bad losers, your arguments aren`t totally agreed with by the rest of the community, so you flame and quit, because only your opinion can be the right. I never said my opionion is the only right and I don`t change stats of items or other imbalances. I was always willing to accept ideas and suggestions, much more than most other mappers, but you flame if not all of your suggestions are implemented and accuse me all the time.
Funnily you always come back. Seems you are unsatisfied.
Maybe you should keep your mind a little bit more open, tolerating other people`s ideas and thoughts, not here in SL (sl is just a hobby, not an important thing) but in normal life.
Greet Luke from me :)
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 19.04.2007, 17:06
This is gona be a flame,
Knot i dont think u got a right to comment on items or how good or bad something is as you have no skill to speak of,you just get destroyed,end of story.
Re: Item Balance
Andriejj - 19.04.2007, 21:39
Quote: I was always willing to accept ideas and suggestions, much more than most other mappers
That's right.
There are some mappers, like Vile(maker of Age of Myths) who, when they don't agree with your opinion or don't like your idea or suggestion, tell you that you are stupid and dumb and try to convince other forummers about it. (And there's always some damn toadies which lick his boots)
Check this topic out- why he started it? To make himself feel better? To make others praise him and flame this "tony" he doesn't like?
http://ageofmyths.org/showthread.php?t=568&highlight=something+important
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 20.04.2007, 05:40
nooK just said everything I've always wanted to say, wrapped up into one tiny little ball of BOOM-NESS.
I'm disgusted with some of the stuff I've seen in the SL world lately, we've got TSW, who gives it a bad name by flaming anyone they don't like. We've got KoNL who takes and takes, but never gives back to the SL world. When they see the word "Crit" they jump up and scream IMBA! without even testing it (and the tests they DO do end up proving US right and THEM wrong.) We sit here and give them GREAT proof that the new items are in fact, NOT rigged, and actually, less cost effect as other items, and not even as good as existing nitems.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not hosting the newest version, but it's not because of what KoNL is not hosting for. I'm not hosting because there are sime simple mistakes in some tool tips that nooK needs to fix first, and the new hero still needs some testing.
nooK, I'd be glad to help you test, got a whole test group ready right now, whenever you want. Clan FoS is at your service. (We're lead by Firestarter18x).
Now, one more thing. I've got nothing against KoNL other than the fact that they're doing nothing more than kill the map. Clan FoS is "allied" with KoNL, and to be honest, I actually like some of the members, and enjoy playing games with them, and/or talking with them. I've got no problem with anyone, actually, just to clear things up.
And if anyone gets bored... Clan FoS on US east. Stop on by.
Re: Item Balance
Anton - 20.04.2007, 05:44
nooK wrote: /flame
You didntīt abandon me I did abandon you.
Funny that your clan name still has my name in it.
And you still haven`t posted why any item except Oni armor is imba (which was nerfed a bit).
we no that you abandoned us that is why we are sad.
our clan name has your name it because you created a awsum map.
im sory i thought that how the items are inbalanced have been talked about. the short vershion is attack speed makes hero that use normal attack as there main damge dealer(shinobi and yari mainly) better at kiling stuf than other heroies, crit dose the same thing.
nooK wrote: /normal
No one cares if you donīt like the new versions or quit SL or whatever. If you donīt like the new versions just donīt post here. You behave like bad losers, your arguments aren`t totally agreed with by the rest of the community, so you flame and quit, because only your opinion can be the right. I never said my opionion is the only right and I don`t change stats of items or other imbalances. I was always willing to accept ideas and suggestions, much more than most other mappers, but you flame if not all of your suggestions are implemented and accuse me all the time.
Funnily you always come back. Seems you are unsatisfied.
Maybe you should keep your mind a little bit more open, tolerating other people`s ideas and thoughts, not here in SL (sl is just a hobby, not an important thing) but in normal life.
Greet Luke from me :)
By no one you mean no one out side of KoNL? There are others who care that are not in KoNL. We stopped posting because you told us to.
Also some of us tock allot of offence at you casual comments that told us basically we are childish and only care about our selfs and dont want to listen to anyone else, and just flame when ppl disagree with us.
We come back because of hope.
I like to think I have a open mind, that doesnt mean im not going to stand up for what i believe in.
Also it seems that since KoNL has stopped posting there has been a lack of any posting or activity on these forums, guess thats just a coincidence.
btw its prity much all flaming. and KoNL is so active at the moment. :D
p.s. i can only speck for my self 'anton' not for clan KoNL.
p.p.s. we try to give something back to SL by ofering ways to keep or make it balnced and fair to play. sory if that seems like 'taking' to every one.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 20.04.2007, 06:46
Never have we tried to kill the map...we've only made(the bulk of us) comments to keep the map what it is, to fix current bugs and stuff, and to keep things from the game that'll modify the general aspects. And most of us, have tried to do this in a reasonable and diplomatic way( well I have anyway and I'm sure a few others have) but some of our members do have short tempers(hehe that rhymed xD) And I hope that those of you with the short tempers will act upon what you've said and actually stop posting in these forums insteada limiting yourself to the 2comments a week or so...also those of you w/o the short tempers who said they'd stop to stop as well...
I mean what good is your word if you don't stick to it when it's simple...
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 20.04.2007, 07:57
Viz, you're actually what I'd consider to be the most mature member of the clan. During the TVOS Vs KoNL stuff, you were the one to go out of your way and to solve everything. You've got major balls, and are very mature.
HOWEVER. You did say "a few". You KNOW that KoNL isn't doing what's in the maps best intrest. I probly shouldn't say "KoNL is" or "KoNL isn't", Instead say "Some of KoNL is" or "Some of KoNL isn't." Since it's not the whole clan.
However, even though they're being proven wrong constantly, they still are SO STUBBORN they refuse to even listen. Not even that, but refuse to GTFO of the forums, as they've implied they were going to do. I've only recently made a forum account, never saw the need, but honestly, I had to. KoNL has gone too far. Instead of this sad attempt at "saving the map from dota like items", why not actually DO SOMETHING POSITIVE FOR THE MAP, AND ACTUALLY-HELP-NOOK-"FIX THE RIGGED ITEMS".
Though, you've already been proven wrong, the items are not, in fact, rigged.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 20.04.2007, 08:59
they would if they had any mapping skills...only about 4 or 5 members of KoNL could map decently...and only 1 or 2 can map well...(those 1 or 2 included in the 4 or 5) and those ppl arn't the more active members. And we've tried on many occations to help fix balences and bugs. But on too many an occation have been flamed, or just said to be whining. When in all actuality we were tryng to help. Go look at some of the topics, other than one's involving items. Find posts by members of KoNL and you'll see they have had many suggestions to improve the map. In fact earlier on they were the ones that had some of the most helpful suggestions. However, not that we're blaming anyone. For some reason their comments have become less and less valued. Which is what caused some of the members to act how they did. Also, some were upset how occationally their words would be twisted or said out of context. They thought the only way ppl would even pay attention to their posts is if they're forceful(guys sorry if this wasn't your true intention but from a psychological stand point it seems the most likely case) We at KoNL all love SL, and just did not want to see it go off track. And sorry to bring it up. Which item(other than creep control) were the members who tested it proved wrong for, the moon blade and katana test, the moon blade killed the yari faster even though the yari even used more abilities against the moon blade. On the test with the oni armor against immolation, the ronin killed the oni armor yari with only 250hp left, but killed the immolation yari with a whopping 750left and the yari even acidently attacked another time(i know that's a whoping what 30dmg but still.) And with both items the ronin flat out died. Altho they were wrong about the crowd control they admitted their fault. Sorry for the long winded conversation. I just don't like to see my friends mistakenly flamed. Sorry, for the extra long and semi pointless post tho...
Again, sorry for discussing this here, I know it is not the right topic, but it's where the discussion seems to be held. If a moderator wouldn't mind making a topic in the off-topic section and move posts about this subject there that would be lovely ^.^
And thanks for the compliments I have recived as an indevidual, and please stop clumping the clan as a whole. Although yes we do always back eachother up. And do act as a whole, we are indeviduals as Anton said. The only reason I've been saying we all the time, is because everyone else seems too. That's another reason many of KNoL are irked, you bash the clan, instead of just pointing out indeviduals on certain occations. Each one of us are both indepent as well as the whole.
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 20.04.2007, 09:42wow
Only flaming knot cause he flamed TSW
is it just me or is knot's head so far up nooks ass that he can taste what nook eats before nook can? (not saying anything to nook because i love sl this is only directed towards knot)
Oh and knot TSW never flamed anyone other than you who obviously deserved it
you should check out the tsw forums, their is a section dedicated to you :)
P.S. and i would have to agree with wiz you really did suck in SL (stacking teams against pubs doesn't mean u are a pro...it actually means u are a noob, or as wiz would say it a nub)
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 20.04.2007, 10:34
Thank you Viz, you are a good friend.
And Menthol is KnoT, it all makes alot more sense now. All respect and credibility i had for Menthol.Love and your posts just disappeared. You do realise KnoT, that you perhaps are -the- most disliked person in the entire SL community on USEast?
KoNL still has your name cause we are the Keepers of your Legacy, meaning we uphold what SL used to be, hence why we play 0.9.
KoNL hasnt tried to destroy the map, for all the things we say are wrong we suggest new ideas and changes, i do suggest you actually read all the posts KnoT.
We give alot to the SL community, and we're about to give alot more in the coming weeks.
Oh and nooK, you think we 'lost'? Heh..
And the reason I myself keep posting isnt anything to do with the clan, its myself and my urge to defend against lies and flames, its my nature.
The good times are soon to roll.
Re: Item Balance
Lord.DarthVader - 20.04.2007, 10:55
OMG guys whats a problems. :roll:
Objects are personally fairest for I in overhead store as they are universal and good. They are in (to) new two for expensive (dear) stores and in comparison with that (those) weak. Since that overcome it possible introduce on classes heavily distribution Yari and stipulate objects for given class. Like:
Heavy (Yari, NO-Dachi)
Mele (Ninja, Shinobi, Ronin, Warlord)
Ranger ( Yumi, Omny, New guy)
Now block buing beeter stuff for Heavy if is to strong etc.
For I fairest and there is most ballanced hero Shinobi and it is correct other heroes under best if they are too weak. Announce objects items on forum best serving they specificity and price and then, we can analyze commonly.
PS: Maybe time is to change play on usbattlenet to eurobattlenet already and about thing important stop brawl not enough.
Re: Item Balance
Forbidden - 20.04.2007, 11:06
To all of you who in the last, what 10 posts? spoke all this valorous bullshit about how you should stop flaming and do something for the map? Guess how many of you did what you suggested yourself? None.
And to those who will comment on anothers suggestions: just say you disagree. Don't tell them to go fuck themselves and that they're stupid noobs that know nothing or whatever.
On another note...Menthol.Love and many of you other new people, do you actually think you know crap of what the KoNL members have been suggesting in the past issues?
That was a rhetorical question don't answer it. No, you don't.
I mean Menthol.Love for one showed up what 1 week ago? So you know the KoNL folks from playing with them? Big deal. Well here's a news flash for you. You don't know diddly squat. This isn't an insult at you because your post number is 1/100 of mine, it's because of what you said. The KoNL members aren't the root of this 'killing the map' problem, so everyone of you - including old and new members, and ESPECIALLY nooK - stop making it that way. The KoNL members have made many excellent suggestions to balance mistakes. Unfortunately, often their suggestions have been shot down - way too often too harshly - by others, including me. I'm not trying to redeem myself here. Nor am I saying that I disagree with why their suggestions were shot down.
Menthol.Love:
Quote: Now, one more thing. I've got nothing against KoNL other than the fact that they're doing nothing more than kill the map. Clan FoS is "allied" with KoNL, and to be honest, I actually like some of the members, and enjoy playing games with them, and/or talking with them.
Is killing the map the fact that some people say they dislike changes to it, or the fact that people don't get along and they cannot play a single game together because no one gets along because of different opinions? Wake up idiot - yes idiot. What's killing the map is what's being done here: "KoNL whines about everything, KoNL this; KoNL that, TWS that, Knot that." Is the map about the players or about the map itself? Without any players, the map is DEAD, without a map but with players the map isn't dead. IT WAS NEVER BORN!
As I said before, the root of this problem isn't KoNL. It's all of us. KoNL, ORD, NooK himself, tegeus, you at FoS, you at TSW and everyone. I would prefer that KoNL actually forgets what everyone thinks and comes back here to stand up for what they believe in. That doesn't include flaming anyone or getting flamed.
Now get back to the topic. I agree that the items are not completely balanced, nooK agreed that his opinion is not the only correct one. Most also agreed that the items are not rigged. Now stop with the arguments and fix the itmes. Suggest something.
I'll start: I agree that Immolation + Oni armor is pretty much an ultimate crowdcontrol item combo so far. I don't see much help in the limiting Legendary items to only 1 of a certain type. The only thing this prevents is the massing of Jadeblades or Zanbatos for massive stat boots which is by the way pretty damn expensive and efforttaking. I would rather limit the Legendary Items - as has been discussed and suggested on a few occasions, but never been discussed further - to 1 or 2 of ANY type. If the max amount of Legendary items was capped, it would:
1. Balance out their powers
2. Encourage the use of more shrines
3. Prevent much of this "riggedness" some of us insist is true
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 20.04.2007, 12:41
Believe it or not, I've been in the SL world for a while now, been on these forums since they were made, practicly. However, never made a forum account, did not see the need.
Now, Let's address everything worth addressing.
As or me reading? I've read this thread since it started. I've read each and every post on this forum. Just because someone had not replied does NOT mean that they did not read it. Derka dir.
As for KoNL killing the map, it's not the whole, but a large part of the clan. Sure they made suggestions, we all have, hell the replaced dachi skills were pretty much all me. >_> BUT. When their ideas were shot down, they gave up, and called all the new versions horrible, quit, and now only host .9 and down. THATS what's killing the clan. THAT is fact. And you CAN'T argue that.
Quote: without a map but with players the map isn't dead. IT WAS NEVER BORN! [/qoute]
This is a video game you know, no need to be so serious. >_>
Now, what I see is people complaining each and every direction, about all sorts of things. I'll admit, I can be a bit hard on people, and believe rules should be INFORCED. And I mean forced. You break a rule, get one warning, break t hat same rule again, goodbye. I'm known for that, and that's actually why the people at TSW don't like me (that and there are some pretty nasty lies going around, including one that I like to kill and cook kittens... v_v). I'm HARD on people, which makes me unliked by those who can't handle a good yelling at, that's understandable. As far as me being unliked... Hum. If that's true... why do I have a full list of mutual friends... and when I get on, I get harassed with whispers from people asking me to game with them? I actually have trouble getting off at night do to having to say bye to so many people all at once (big supporter of the "get rid of /f m" idea).
Now, Shadow Phoenix, funny how you mention having respect in my posts, then losing it when you figured out who I-USED-to be. WAY to live in the past, quite a respectful person you are.
And again, I'll mention that I've read all the posts on this entire forum.
Now for cry...
As far as the TSW forums, I was sent there because someone was telling me about some fella posting on your forums, they thought it was me. So I went to go check it out, in the process I saw these threads about me, and by far believe that's the most immature thing I've yet to see on bnet. And I've played pokemon world.
And for Viz, yeah the clumping as a clan has to stop, all together, even by me. I'll be doing people one at a time for now on, as you can see, no more "this clan, that." kind of crap. I have my own beefs with KoNL as a whole for not hosting the newest versions, but aside from that, I've only got problems with a few people.
It comes down to this. After it's all been said and done nooK cannot undo items. Those items are there, and staying there. Removing them would just be bad. There are more people who feel the items are NOT imba compared to those that feel they are. I'll admit, I jumped out of my pants the second I saw a crit item, AND a new attack speed item, and when a few friends and I were the first to beta that version with nooK (I remember, he was a Dachi and I was a Yari), I told him my thoughts.
"Get that shit out of the game"_Me.
But after doing some REAL testing, under REAL conditions . And the most LIKELY (not a 1 in a 100,000,000th of a chance) conditions, I found the items to be perfect after he changed the prices to what I said to change them to. You have to remember what is LIKELY.
Go look at the Zanbato. Thing's barely even usable now. Because people complained and complaned and we kept nerfing and nerfing untill they were happy with it. Happy with it of course meaning that it's not even useable. People want to do this with ONMY TOO! Onmy of ALL the heros. Onmy being one of the weakest heros in the game! He's not even worth a damn at level 20 with the rest of the heros!
What I'm saying is... People will never be 100% happy. I hear most the complaints coming from KoNL members, not saying which ones, I'm done with the name game. A few select KoNL members have found something to pick at each and every version, but the second the next version comes out... they forget about it. People will never be happy with the map, and will always complain. That's it. That's it period. End of story.
I, myself, am never satisfied. I want to see this map grow, and never stop growing, and get dota the hell out of bnet. I have SL up for download almost every night, and throughout the day too.
The bottom line, that I've been leading up to, is that we all need to shut the hell up, including myself, stop flaming, including myself, and work together to fix the problems that we have in this map, and that, again, includes myself.
I've been, what I'd like to call myself, nooKs unofficial balance bitch for the last few versions. He makes the map, I would tell him what to change. He's rarely on (at least on east) now days, so it's a bit hard to get in contact with him to do this, but for the most part, the maps ended up great when he actually got help from people who tried, and actually tested a map more than three times.
Let's.
Help.
I'm in for it.
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 20.04.2007, 12:42
Aww crap, screwed up my qoute, too lazy to fix it, enjoy reading it in the qoute bracket.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 20.04.2007, 13:49
Yes yes that`s the problem of SL, nobody likes anybody...
This is not about, who I like the most.
This is not about, who is the best at sl.
This is not about, getting most suggestions into sl.
But all you guys do is just flaming, battling each other (konl vs tvos, tsw vs menthol...), instead of making a nice community.
KoNL doesnīt join if Menthol hosts. Menthol doesn`t play with wizard.dark, ....
Whatīs your problem? Just battle it out ingame, in a fair fight.
Now to the item/KoNL thing:
Nobody buys the new uberexpensive items.
So you could play like without those items.
But you donīt because you got too much pride.
What was your main issue? That the items are imba and I will add more and more powerful items.
1) Nobody buys them, so they can`t be very imba.
2) I haven`t added more items, nor will I do in the future.
....
Quote: our clan name has your name it because you created a awsum map.
So you like having the name of an "asshat" or "idiot" in your clanname?
I never used such words or insults on anyone of you, but if you need it..fine.
Quote: Also it seems that since KoNL has stopped posting there has been a lack of any posting or activity on these forums, guess thats just a coincidence.
Seems you are proud of it?
You really think I didn`t know that I will lose a big part of the sl community when abandoning KoNL?
Haha :)
Quote: We give alot to the SL community, and we're about to give alot more in the coming weeks.
Oh seems you got an unprotected version? Or editing the mpq?
You know that stealing is the worst thing you can do to a map and a mapper who put a lot of time into his work.
nooK
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 21.04.2007, 04:25
*sigh* Mac... And glad to see the community thing being preached for the 50th time. Will it actually be practiced this time? (sorry to be critical but it's the truth)
Re: Item Balance
BD - 21.04.2007, 05:21
"I'm disgusted with some of the stuff I've seen in the SL world lately, we've got TSW, who gives it a bad name by flaming anyone they don't like."[/quote]
ok first of all i kno i may be late but i would like to kno(not tryna flame) when have realy any of the late tsw tried to flame any 1 but knotalive aka. menthol love. I myself tried to improve all my players relations with the other big clan on east(konl) we rarely if ever flamed any1 except on the flame board, and that was reserved for u knot who many were pissed off at for driving tvos into the ground with ur damn rules, and saddest part is even after all that ive still been cordial to u and even went as far as tryna simmer down the flame section that was about you =- 0
"This is not about, who I like the most.
This is not about, who is the best at sl.
This is not about, getting most suggestions into sl.
But all you guys do is just flaming, battling each other (konl vs tvos, tsw vs menthol...), instead of making a nice community.
KoNL doesnīt join if Menthol hosts. Menthol doesn`t play with wizard.dark, ....
Whatīs your problem? Just battle it out ingame, in a fair fight."
Nook that has to be the best thing said on this forum in a while grats man.
Seriously i try to have a possitive outlook on all people, i convince my friends to play with peopel they have reservations playing with, hell i even try to get long standing fueds to disolve into friendly rivalries. Point blank nook there is nothing beter i would like then going into a battle fighting with and against, wiz, lyn, skirn, ed, knot, SP, and hell even u urself. However we all no there will never exist such a game because of people either judging each other from past experiences ingame, from reputation, or just from how they came off on the forums. However i will hold out for this day, because i once believed wat i heard and not wat i saw ( used to think lyn SP and konl as a whole were asses however after playing with them and getting to kno some of them, i realized they were good people with great strats and a bad rep some times) However i believe i am being sidetracked a bit by my own thoughts of grand battles(that would be a hell of a battle tho ) i will end by saying this, the sl community as a whole would be a hella lot stronger if there wasnt such division between different peoples because every one can contribute in there own way.
PS:( i do not have much favoratism in the war part i jus picked those who seem to be conflictin most lyn/wiz, skirn/wiz, knot/wiz, ed/wiz, konl/knot, konl/nook, sp/nook, etc... sry if i forgot any :D )
Jus my 10 cents :D
BD
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 21.04.2007, 07:32i agree
drools in the thought of a badass sl game... its been a while since i've played a game without ANY pubs feeding, and i feel honored that you would put my name up as one of the ones you wanna face because i want to fight you too....(sorry i've been rewatching naruto and i just had to type it like that). no but seriously lets get some crazy in houses going every time i've played lately we get a few ppl interested but not enough for a full house. Oh yeah and i have to say whoever made that FATE/STAY NIGHT game that other time we played...I hate u cause now i am addicted to it lol
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 21.04.2007, 08:17*sigh*
The reason why we can't be a nice little community in all honesty is a mix of leadership from both sides (Sorry KoNL, but our screening members to make sure we actually enjoy being with them is considered Elitism, which tends to be frowned on.) and the simple competitive nature of people like Lyncor and Myself. When we hear someone say they might be a challenge, we jump on this and face them with everything we got.
It tends to piss people off.
That extends to everyone, I hate to turn this into a direct flame, but I feel I need to.
It can't be a happy community because nooK responds harshly to criticism, any kind of theorycraft or even dislike to the new versions tended to be responded harshly by nooK instead of worked out kindly. And yes, I do mean it's always been that way.
For instance, when KoNL basically said, "Man, .8+ sucks." We gave our reasoning, (Balance was all skewed causing a few heroes to slaughter the rest, Ronin was a murder-house, Dachi was a demi-god, a minor-dislike of the army limits, the lack of truesight on towers, among other things.) We actually openly said this, and went back to .7 during this time period.
How did nooK respond? Every instance I remember saying we weren't fond of .8, no matter what reason we gave, he basically said that .8 was an improvement regardless of what else was said. So, until .9 came out we were playing the older versions of SL, because we enjoyed it a hell of a lot more.
That's basically what's happening now, except we're now almost positive that it's going to continue going in a direction that KoNL, as a whole, dislikes. Some of us for instance, did try .95 and absolutely hated the new hero. We didn't comment on it of course, because we were already shunned from the community.
What makes it worse is when we know he didn't understand how a lot of skilled players played the game. There was basically two forms to play... Those who got items, and those who didn't. Those who did, got a few wealthshrines early, 2-4, then just equipped there heroes to the point where it took 3-4 lesser heroes to take them out. You have no idea how much getting Blink didn't cost honor made us cringe in half these games. And you have no idea how much seeing literally everyone have a need to have Oni armor when a single person got it around the time people were hitting 20.
To wrap that tangent up...
The community isn't friendly because there's currently no reason to be friendly.
Also, as a note to Scry: It was RoboFerret.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 21.04.2007, 16:51
Quote: It can't be a happy community because nooK responds harshly to criticism, any kind of theorycraft or even dislike to the new versions tended to be responded harshly by nooK instead of worked out kindly. And yes, I do mean it's always been that way.
I never agrressively shot down suggestions, I just said I don`t like it/them.
What do you think?
Shall I say:
Wow awesome idea, I totally love it but sorry I won`t use it?
Get some real life, life isnīt pink and softy dude.
Quote: That's basically what's happening now, except we're now almost positive that it's going to continue going in a direction that KoNL, as a whole, dislikes. Some of us for instance, did try .95 and absolutely hated the new hero. We didn't comment on it of course, because we were already shunned from the community.
Yes ofc you hate it even if it stands for all what you say you love: Skill
All of his abilities need skill, never seen any support hero take more skill than the new one.
But ofc now you will argument that his long ranged nuke doesnīt take skill, and channeling abilities never take any skill, knowing when to change to range doesn`t take skill and a 3 sec buff is wayyyyyy to long to be a skill ability.
You are just one of this "oldschool" players which are at any game, they dislike everything new.
Quote: What makes it worse is when we know he didn't understand how a lot of skilled players played the game. There was basically two forms to play... Those who got items, and those who didn't. Those who did, got a few wealthshrines early, 2-4, then just equipped there heroes to the point where it took 3-4 lesser heroes to take them out. You have no idea how much getting Blink didn't cost honor made us cringe in half these games. And you have no idea how much seeing literally everyone have a need to have Oni armor when a single person got it around the time people were hitting 20.
Thatīs a problem with wealth shrines and undynamic towers/creeps. Will be changed.
Quote: The community isn't friendly because there's currently no reason to be friendly.
Except KoNL the community is very friendly to me.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 21.04.2007, 19:28
Quote: Get some real life, life isnīt pink and softy dude.
Yep. That's basically why I'm saying the community can't get along peacefully, because life itself says otherwise.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 21.04.2007, 20:22
*sniffles* I'm not one of the big boys T.T
Also, skirn we were making progress *sigh*. I know you were trying to help. But these boards are still tense so yeah. If you can't take a humble approach fellow KoNL members please don't post...That's too all KoNL members. I know I stop myself from posting right away. I wait an hour after checking the forums to post. So please if you are going to post please think it through.
Also although I do applaude attempts to form a single community. I do belive this won't happen anytime soon. We have mape a gap way too big. We at KoNL have too much pride to back down(sorry guys.) Some other people have too much pride as well or should just think things through much more clearly before posting. I know I too have had some pride issues and have been mistaken.
I will not make any comment on new hero as I havn't played any versions past .91 and have a feeling I won't be until a lot of this blows over.
I really think this whole convo does need to be moved tho.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 21.04.2007, 20:45
Viz? Let me be very blunt, that was not progress. And I don't mean after I post, I meant I posted because I saw no progress was going to happen.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 22.04.2007, 01:38
Yeah...your are quite right....but it may possibly have happened maybe....(that gives it about a 5% chance...)
Re: Item Balance
Andriejj - 22.04.2007, 08:50
The new hero isn't that difficult to master him. Only his ulti requires some more skill(or rather good teamwork).
I think the next hero should be a difficult one or at least original in the style of playing it. Most other AoS-type maps have such heroes:
In "Age of Myths" Astral Mage, skeleton archer, bad Druid(don't remember the name, sth with poison or venom probably) and probably few more heroes are difficult to play, some say they're too weak, but I've seen players which really owned playing them.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 22.04.2007, 19:41
KoNL still hasnīt answered on my point:
Quote: Now to the item/KoNL thing:
Nobody buys the new uberexpensive items.
So you could play like without those items.
But you donīt because you got too much pride.
What was your main issue? That the items are imba and I will add more and more powerful items.
1) Nobody buys them, so they can`t be very imba.
2) I haven`t added more items, nor will I do in the future.
It is a fact that the immo item is stronger and cheaper than the oni armor, so how can it be possible that you play a version which has the IMBA IMBA IMBA immo item in it, and never complained about the immo item being imba before?
Can`t wait for your explanation or wait...I forgot you don`t answer questions where it becomes oviously that you got just too much pride to admit a mistake.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 22.04.2007, 23:41
Simple.
It was something we didn't like, but it wasn't nearly as overpowered as you say. In a hero battle, it usually doesn't tack on that much damage (People don't stand next to eachother that long.) And against creeps, if you're standing next to them, you're going to take a hell of a lot more damage then them.
Thus, though we didn't like the item at all (I believe we did mention that somewhere) We didn't find it so inbalanced that it changed the entire gameplay if someone brought it.
Where as something like the Oni Armor on a Yari, we knew it was so overpowered if someone had it he could take on multiple heroes.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 22.04.2007, 23:45
You don`t get it do you?
Immo item deals more dmg to creeps and about the same dmg to heros.
To this higher dmg there also comes the fact that you don`t have to be attacked, it deals dmg nevertheless.
Can`t wait for your logical answers.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 23.04.2007, 00:20
As much as I LOOOOOOVE fights and arguments this has gone on long enough.Seriously guys didn't you say you dont play any version past 9.0?And im not just saying this to KonL im saying this to Nook to,let it go man,if you stop addresing this same subject about the same item they will stop arguing with you about it.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 23.04.2007, 04:28
*applauds wizard* thank you.
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 23.04.2007, 07:07
wow i never thought i would see the day wizard would be trying to END a fight LOL
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 23.04.2007, 10:07
No this isnīt over yet, I donīt like it when people have no arguments left and still behave like they are right.
You proved yourself that immo+oni (it was 20% then) isn`t imba.
You proved yourself that moonblade isn`t imba.
I changed Oni armor to 15% so it is at the same level as immo.
And now you want to tell me that you donīt play 0.95 because of the new items?
Let`s look at the changelog of versions since 0.91:
- Added a passive 5 sec cooldown to "No-Dachi Skill" <- Finally the crit you hated so much is removed.
- Reduced range of "Rising Dragon" to 400 <- RD was nerfed
- Increased damage of Dragon Warriors for "Order of the Dragon" <- Ult was made much more useful
- Reduced damage bonus of Yumi`s passive ability <- nerfing yumi`s high dmg rangd attack a bit
- Reduced Oni Armor`s damage reflection to 15% <- already mentioned
- Unfinished shrines no longer work <- big big big exploit
- Increased cooldown of "Rising Dragon" to 15 sec <- ND nerf again
- Increased No-Dachi`s melee attack cooldown a bit <- ND nerf again
- Increased cooldown of "Shikigami" by 6 sec <- KoNL suggestion
- Decreased duration of "Teppo" <- KoNL suggestion
- Reduced life bonus from "Oni" <- Small but needed nerf to Oni/Yari
- Redid Zanbato <- KoNL`s biggest IMBA complaint! Removed and made into something useful suggested by KoNL
- Reduced life leech of Nine Headed Dragon to 20% <- needed nerf to strength heros and the item
You want to say that a version without all those changes but no other item as strong as immo (oni armor) is superior?
I didn`t even mention the other 100 smaller changes and bugfixes, or the new path which makes bottom lane much more interesting, the new hero...
This is no longer about a item being imba, this is just about KoNL being a bunch of cowards (yes my first insult, it`s time to) which can`t accept that they were wrong.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 23.04.2007, 10:37
I'm sorry, I what?
I proved Moonblade was fine, I also proved Immo + Oni Armor was overpowered as all fucking hell.
I also proved Immo was a lot weaker the Oni in the same test.
And yes, that's the reason we don't play .95, and if you're proud of f your map to even realize that Immo isn't that powerful, then I'm very glad we're not exactly on good terms right now.
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 23.04.2007, 10:39
Hum, I let this fizzle on a bit without posting.
First off, I love how nooK, *gasps*, has been right about everything he said... Just thought I'd point that out.
Also, it cracks me up that honestly, we're all going on about multiple items... that have all been proven to be something many people thought they were not. I'll confess, nooK knows actually, how much I hated the items at first, after changing EVERYTHING into things suggested to him (and alot of price stuff that even I suggested, so I know that nooK - IS - listening.) the map has grown into the best yet.
I personally LOVE the new hero, it's GREAT! Takes a TON of skill to play, but needs a few changes. Not many, but a few. And we'll see those next version.
I also am very entertained at the lack of maturity on EVERYONES part. That's-EVERYONE. If you've ever posted here, that includes you. INCLUDING myself. I'm sorry, but we're all being so immature. I mean, honestly, if we're going to bash items, let's ALL be logical. Immo does more than Oni Armor, we've gotten past that. Armor reduction isn't all it's cracked up to be, we've gotten past that. Now, let's all admit... some of us were wrong (again, I'll admit I was wrong), and some of us were right from the start. And let's MOVE ON!
I've got a game of Enfos to play, so I must get going, I'll finish my post, and get to where I was going tomorrow.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 23.04.2007, 14:59
MMM il try to be as mature as i can in this post and adress everyone,hopefully this will make this pointless post dead and we can go on to better arguments with more interesting things to talk about and prove others wrong:
Viziroth:You are one of the big boys as far as i remmember O.o(hopefully he knows wat im talking bout).
Ed: :D
Nook:Dude you'r points are great and all but dont you think,you saying everything in the last post is same as saying "I cant really do without KonL so i want to convince them to come back and play my new versions to keep this game going".Im sorry im not the one to insult people that i think are great but its true.If you want to keep you'r pride please let it boil over dont become another hippocrit such as Knot.
Skirn:I know you dont like me and I dont like you....game wise dude.Seriously u are geting to serious about a game.I mean yeah we all care and I know you are friends with some other people who plays this in life but still dude,calm down.
Knot:seriously....shut...the....fuck...up,and stop kissing up to Nook,obviously he doesnt care.
Hopefully not to offending to anyone(but knot)but straight to the point.I repeat what i said,lets all chill and argue bout something more interesting,like how to play a hero.
Re: Item Balance
nooK - 23.04.2007, 15:02
If I would care about KoNL I wouldNīt have abandoned them. I just want to show everybody how wrong and stubborn they are.
Re: Item Balance
tegeus-Cromis - 23.04.2007, 19:01
I find this whole situation bizarre.
nooK holds opinion X.
Skirn (for example) holds opinion Y.
Skirn tests his opinion amd arrives at the modified conclusion Z.
nooK comes to accept conclusion Z and modifies the map accordingly (e.g. Oni Armour nerfed 20%-->15%, Moonblade untouched).
Where does the mutual hatred come in? WTF.
Re: Item Balance
Skirn - 23.04.2007, 19:52
Quote: Skirn:I know you dont like me and I dont like you....game wise dude.Seriously u are geting to serious about a game.I mean yeah we all care and I know you are friends with some other people who plays this in life but still dude,calm down.
O.o? No I'm not, I'm just freakishly loyal when I finally decide on a clan.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 23.04.2007, 20:24
My bad then,cause i heard that Lyncor is friends with alot of people who he plays with,i thought one of them was you.Sorry to think of you as another individual.
PS:i was actualy expecting you were going to flame me when i saw you'r name under last posted in topic>< fewh ><
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 24.04.2007, 06:46
Real life friends in KoNL:
Lyncor
Shadow Phoenix
044anton
Reaper
Arrowcat (Though we no longer have RL contact with her)
The rest are simply very loyal and awesome people. :D
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 25.04.2007, 22:47
Love how wiz sits here and bashes me... yet I've yet to ever do anything to him, nor insult him. Funny ^_^
Shows the maturity level of some people.
Anyway, to the great post... enjoyed it much of... what's your name... Tegis something or nother.
It really is a "QTF?" Type of moment at first, but after reading, you start to see it's always been this way. KoNL have always complained about something, arguing that it was imba, and through this... they're diggint their own hole in the world of SL. Take Onmy for instance. Onmy, who is agreed apon as the weakest hero, they complain is over powered because of Fujin. Excuse me, but if you actually get hit by a Fujin, you DESERVE to die for sucking so hard.
Just my quick imput ^_^
I'm so tired, and really don't have time for SL with my new addiction to the LoTR Online. Just thought I'd give a quick "Yo" to you, and your post, explaining it.
Re: Item Balance
Lyncor - 26.04.2007, 04:41
Stun + Fujin. Learn teamwork, KnoT, then maybe you won't suck so much at the game.
You've insulted Wiz a whole frakton. Ye gosh, is every word that comes from your keyboard a lie these days?
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 27.04.2007, 04:33
Lyncor, you've only hear that I've done this stuff from people who have taken a habit of flaming me. You were NOT there to ever see me flame them, and that's because I've never said something about them that wasn't true. Such as, I've never said "OMFG WIZARD SUCKS BALLZ, LAWL", However, I have said that wiz and cry have both contributed greatly to the destruction (which actually, I had planned. -_^) of TVoS. Though, expect a birth of something beautiful in the near future.
Re: Item Balance
Viziroth - 27.04.2007, 04:38
You planned the destruction of your own clan....wow brilliant.
Re: Item Balance
Shadow Phoenix - 27.04.2007, 06:58
My first ever meeting with KnoT:
*ShadowPhoenix joins channel TVoS*
"Greetings KnoT, i am ShadowPhoenix, Co-Chieftan of KoNL. Good to meet you."
*3 people get kicked and banned*
"Wow, alot of people are getting banned.."
The following response?
*ShadowPhoenix has been kicked from channel TVoS*
*ShadowPhoenix has been banned*
You cant claim "You never saw me do anything to you so why are you saying i did" When i did naught but introduce myself in a nice manner even after hearing how much of a tyrant bastard Chieftan you were. So my thoughts towards you are my own, not feed to me by anyone else.
Re: Item Balance
A[Y]S-Cry-Ed - 27.04.2007, 07:06
lol so you planned the destruction of tvos?!?!
I'm not gonna say taht it wasn't your fault tvos fell apart.
i am also not gonna say taht me and wiz didn't contribute to the downfall of tvos. we did. we made ppl see you how you really were.
BUT TO SAY THAT U PLANNED IT?!?!?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*falls over dead from laughing*
Re: Item Balance
BD - 27.04.2007, 15:19
god i tried for a good 5 mins to resist the flame KNOT U PEICE OF ####!!! U think the death of a clan is koo or sumtin? omg i usualy wait for my rage to subside before i post but u took it man, u ###############. I swear wiz and just about every1 else ive ever heard talk about u was right. To destroy the clan i once had all the faith in the world in. Just wow, i cant even see straight because of what u just said on these forums. Knot i heard about a condition u have and that ull die in 5-7(i hope its true now) years, i had allways shown pitty on u because of that and was always sympathetic to ur plight(wanna leave a mark on atleast the sl world because lord knows only mark a janitors gonna leave on the world is the skidmarks on the skoo floor) ur a fukin dickhead man, and u dieng can not b sooner, ur prolly the first person ive ever even talked to like this since being incarcerated(ive had to put that aside for a bit to get off probo) but seriously ive never met a dick head as bad as u. OMFG DIE ALLREADY U ASS HOLE #### YOU :end flame
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 27.04.2007, 20:27
And just so you know,the 2 calmest people in the world iv ever met are BD and Viziroth...i hope now everyone understands. Secondly not for a moment did i ever regret saying i hope you DO die in 6 years since u broke up the clan.
And last but not least,u never have planed the clans destruction,not untill me and ed left thats when u knew everything went to hell and decided to end it urself(simpler course would of been to disband it since everyone ended up hating u eather way)end of story GG.
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 29.04.2007, 08:56
This is the lack of maturity on TSW's part that I speak of.
There is something much bigger on the way.
Re: Item Balance
wizard.dark - 29.04.2007, 15:38
Theres nothing bigger on the way.Knot said to me that he has a plan to do a few things.Heres my gusses to the clues he provided...
1)Destroy Konl
2)Destroy SLL
3)Destroy FoS and rebuild it(in his own liking)
4)Be a total douche bag for the rest of his life and do as much damage as he can till the final day he dies(thank god for that day).
After long conversation with Jesus4lyfe we agreed that Knot has no way of performing the first 3 choices and that prety much....Konl holds all the cards.GG knot.
Re: Item Balance
Menthol.Love - 30.04.2007, 04:56
1)Destroy Konl
QTF? No way, they're not very much involved past this point.
2)Destroy SLL
It's already ruined. They got shut down by the SL community. The ones that matter, that is.
3)Destroy FoS and rebuild it(in his own liking)
FoS is already over, just slowly dying. We all know it, just some have trouble admitting to it. Rebuild? No way. Democracy, my friend.
4)Be a total douche bag for the rest of his life and do as much damage as he can till the final day he dies(thank god for that day).
WTB some maturity?
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