Hero Analysis

Samurai Legends
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  • Beteiligte Poster: tegeus-Cromis - Kouenzan - nooK - Anonymous - Metal Sonic - Ikthend - Galefury - Skirn - MinsanLngTo - Omerta - Kevar - Black_Mage - Lyncor - Kai Okarian - Forbidden - Shadow Phoenix - Meh - Lord.DarthVader - hanzel2m - KinG - Anton - wizard.dark - Viziroth - Attin - Shinkirou
  • Forum: Samurai Legends
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  • aus dem Unterforum: Balance Issues
  • Antworten: 140
  • Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004
  • Sprache: englisch
  • Link zum Originaltopic: Hero Analysis
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    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 11.05.2006, 02:57

    Hero Analysis
    This sounds like it should go in the General Forums, but I am putting it here because I intend to analyse the heroes with regard to what I think ought to be changed.

    I am arranging the heroes in order of priority (i.e. which have the biggest issues and need changing most).

    Let me state first that many of my suggestions will revolve around replacing the existing static damage (think Stormbolt) with dynamic damage (think Crit Strike). I think this is crucial to preventing a situation where heroes' survivability gets better and better as the game goes on, due to items, but their killing ability gets poorer and poorer due to skills becoming useless.

    Ronin

    This guy fell out of the wussy tree and hit every branch on the way down. He relies on abilities to kill, but here's the problem: his abilities deal only mediocre damage and his core abilities i]do not benefit from items at all[/i]. That's a huge handicap.

    Airy Charge: 20/30/40/50/60 dmg per hit

    Issues: Experience indicates that when cast at max range, one can usually expect about 5 hits. That's 300 damage at lvl 5, which sounds respectable--the problem is the time it takes to deal this damage. I have observed that when used on a fleeing foe, the strikes can come 1/2 a screen apart! What this means is that when used as an opener, you often find yourself fighting far from friendly territory (as a smart opponent will retreat the moment you cast it) when the move is over and, due to the creeps you are likely to pass by and the number of instant nukes/higher DPS heroes in the game, often at a HP disadvantage. When used a chaser, your prey will usually be almost at his fountain, or at least his towers, by the time you've dealt that 300 damage. 90% of the time, activating Skywalker Boots and just chasing conventionally would work better.

    Just as serious a problem is the fact that Airy Charge becomes next to useless if the game drags. By then, most characters--yourself included-- will be dealing much more damage per second with normal attacks than your Charge can even under the most ideal conditions, due to items.

    My suggestion: Make the damage dealt the same as that from the Ronin's normal attack, complete with item bonuses, including orb effects. Instead of improving the damage done per level, improve the acceleration speed (and therefore also the number of slashes). This ought to keep the skill's effectiveness at around the same level it's at now in the early-mid game while allowing it to remain useful late game. Also, increase the speed of the slashes, so you don't have the attack occurring over a ridiculous distance (both inconvenient and rather funny to watch, in a bad way).

    Death Poem: 10%/20%30%/40%/50% IAS when below 500 HP

    Issues: Sorry dude, but this skill just sucks. It's a Catch-22: when your max HP is low enough for <500 HP to be a reasonable amount, that's also the point in the game where your damage is not high enough for a bit of IAS to make a difference, and when your damage is high enough for that amount of IAS to make a difference, that's the point in the game where sticking around to fight with under 500 HP becomes suicide.

    My suggestion: Two ways you can go, IMHO.

    1) Change it from being 'below 500 HP' to 'below X% HP', where X is a reasonably safe level of health to be at. I think 1/2 HP would be reasonable; with a decent lvl 20 item load of a Jadeblade, a Helmet of the Dragon (and some non-strength items of course), that works out to about 700 HP. Keep the IAS as it is.

    OR

    2) Change it from being 'below 500 HP' to 'below Y% HP', where Y is a percentage that, at lower levels of hero, works out to be even less than 500 HP. In exchange, make the effect much more noticeable--100% IAS at lvl 5 would be more like it. As it is, it is just a little bonus people put points into when they have no other skills left, and which no one notices.

    Flying Death

    This one's fine.

    Kaze: 150/200/250/300/350 dmg, 2 sec stun

    Issues: The direction the target is thrown in is quite unpredictable. I have tested it out many times and I cannot discern a pattern based on the direction you approach it from--this is sub-optimal for an ulti.

    I ought to mention that this would be a very poor ultimatel (basically just a fancy Stormbolt!) if not for the existence of Flying Death. Because Flying Death exists, with its long stun, relatively high damage and difficulty in landing it, Kaze, which allows you to chain into it with certain success (barring intervention from other heroes), is instead quite solid.

    My suggestion: Have the skill throw the opponent in the direction you were facing when you used it on him. Knowing where he will land would make quite a big difference.

    -

    Will continue this later.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kouenzan - 11.05.2006, 09:36


    also i like the hero mounted on the horse but he has two healing spells (regen and heal)

    maybe you can change one of it into a buff (ms or as)

    his ultimate, just rocks and teppo i like it :)

    what do you think cromis? :D



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 11.05.2006, 09:51


    Quote: Airy Charge: 20/30/40/50/60 dmg per hit

    Issues: Experience indicates that when cast at max range, one can usually expect about 5 hits. That's 300 damage at lvl 5, which sounds respectable--the problem is the time it takes to deal this damage. I have observed that when used on a fleeing foe, the strikes can come 1/2 a screen apart! What this means is that when used as an opener, you often find yourself fighting far from friendly territory (as a smart opponent will retreat the moment you cast it) when the move is over and, due to the creeps you are likely to pass by and the number of instant nukes/higher DPS heroes in the game, often at a HP disadvantage. When used a chaser, your prey will usually be almost at his fountain, or at least his towers, by the time you've dealt that 300 damage. 90% of the time, activating Skywalker Boots and just chasing conventionally would work better.

    Just as serious a problem is the fact that Airy Charge becomes next to useless if the game drags. By then, most characters--yourself included-- will be dealing much more damage per second with normal attacks than your Charge can even under the most ideal conditions, due to items.

    My suggestion: Make the damage dealt the same as that from the Ronin's normal attack, complete with item bonuses, including orb effects. Instead of improving the damage done per level, improve the acceleration speed (and therefore also the number of slashes). This ought to keep the skill's effectiveness at around the same level it's at now in the early-mid game while allowing it to remain useful late game. Also, increase the speed of the slashes, so you don't have the attack occurring over a ridiculous distance (both inconvenient and rather funny to watch, in a bad way).

    Once again your suggestions are very good. It´s easy to see that you are a experienced Aos player which knows about gameplay mechanics.
    I will make him speed up faster, just tested it looks cool =)

    Quote: Death Poem: 10%/20%30%/40%/50% IAS when below 500 HP

    Issues: Sorry dude, but this skill just sucks. It's a Catch-22: when your max HP is low enough for <500 HP to be a reasonable amount, that's also the point in the game where your damage is not high enough for a bit of IAS to make a difference, and when your damage is high enough for that amount of IAS to make a difference, that's the point in the game where sticking around to fight with under 500 HP becomes suicide.

    My suggestion: Two ways you can go, IMHO.

    1) Change it from being 'below 500 HP' to 'below X% HP', where X is a reasonably safe level of health to be at. I think 1/2 HP would be reasonable; with a decent lvl 20 item load of a Jadeblade, a Helmet of the Dragon (and some non-strength items of course), that works out to about 700 HP. Keep the IAS as it is.

    OR

    2) Change it from being 'below 500 HP' to 'below Y% HP', where Y is a percentage that, at lower levels of hero, works out to be even less than 500 HP. In exchange, make the effect much more noticeable--100% IAS at lvl 5 would be more like it. As it is, it is just a little bonus people put points into when they have no other skills left, and which no one notices.

    Yes I think I will go for the first option. I´m quite sorry that my answers are most times very short but your suggestions are just good so I can`t do anything execept confirming ;)

    Quote: Kaze: 150/200/250/300/350 dmg, 2 sec stun

    Issues: The direction the target is thrown in is quite unpredictable. I have tested it out many times and I cannot discern a pattern based on the direction you approach it from--this is sub-optimal for an ulti.

    I ought to mention that this would be a very poor ultimatel (basically just a fancy Stormbolt!) if not for the existence of Flying Death. Because Flying Death exists, with its long stun, relatively high damage and difficulty in landing it, Kaze, which allows you to chain into it with certain success (barring intervention from other heroes), is instead quite solid.

    My suggestion: Have the skill throw the opponent in the direction you were facing when you used it on him. Knowing where he will land would make quite a big difference.

    Hehe it seems that you are the first one that recognizes it`s potential. Will think about the direction-thing.

    ---------------------------------------

    Quote: also i like the hero mounted on the horse but he has two healing spells (regen and heal)

    maybe you can change one of it into a buff (ms or as)
    Yes already thought about changing Banner of Honor-



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kouenzan - 11.05.2006, 13:04


    wahh you're going to change it? i like it compared to the healing :(

    well it's your decision :)

    can we submit our hero ideas? :D



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 11.05.2006, 15:41


    I`m not going to replace it, I just will change the aura effect. Will add % bonus damage I think.

    And you don´t like the healing (Shogun´s Glory) ?
    Thought this was one of the coolest spells ingame :)

    And yes you can always submit hero ideas, best if they use the coming soon models ;)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 11.05.2006, 23:16


    Quote: Once again your suggestions are very good. It´s easy to see that you are a experienced Aos player which knows about gameplay mechanics.

    I wouldn't say that, but thanks. :)

    Quote: I will make him speed up faster, just tested it looks cool =)

    It's not the rate at which he speeds up that poses a problem; rather it's the time he takes to execute each strike, i.e. the pause between blinks. (I'm not sure if that's what you meant by 'speed up faster', but thought I'd clarify just in case.)

    Quote: Yes I think I will go for the first option.

    Cool.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 11.05.2006, 23:39


    And hey, I like the healing! It's the first healing spell to make me go, 'Wow, that looks cool.' :P

    If you make banner add bonus damage, though, maybe you should take away the bonus IAS. It's not a huge deal as it is--just 10%--but it makes sense to localise the buffs in one spell and the healing in another.

    True be told there are more important issues with For the Shogun's Glory, which I'm about to post on the hero thread.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 12.05.2006, 01:51


    LOL, I just noticed that this is the hero thread.

    Okay, next: the Warlord. No skill numbers this time, as I'm lazy to launch WC3 to get them and anyway I assume nooK knows them already. :P

    Teppo

    Issues: 50% slow for 10 seconds is too long. (The only reason it hasn't been gamebreaking so far is the general damage deficiency in Samurai Legends, but you mentioned that you will be improving that.) The damage, on the other hand, is rather low.

    Also, it does not scale very well. It seems obligatory to level this skill up due to the Warlord's lack of other damage sources (the ulti is, well, an ulti), but the damage improvement is actually not very much. I have used Shogun's Glory/Banner Warlord before, with only one point in Teppo until I couldn't level anything else (by which point the additional damage was not very relevant, of course) and I didn't miss the additional levels of Teppo at all. Simply put, the best part of Teppo right now is the slow, and that remains constant.

    My suggestion: Lower the slow duration to 6 seconds and scale the slow according to level (40%/45%/50%/55%/60%). Note that the max % slow I have suggested is significantly higher than the current one; this is a slight but not huge compensation for the duration nerf as it is the duration of the slow that really determines how many extra hits you can get in (assuming you can catch up in the first place).

    Increase the damage. 75/100/125/150/175 is a very poor progression. Try 70/105/140/175/210. The mana cost can be increased if necessary; after all the Warlord is an int character, and can/should bear a higher mana cost burden than other heroes.

    For Shogun's Glory

    Issues: IMBA IMBA IMBA. The heal on creeps is okay, but on smart allies and on the Warlord himself, it is totally broken. Instead of explaining, let me just post a few screenshots.







    If it wasn't clear enough, you cast the spell, then immediately run in the direction you cast it in, hitting yourself with all the healing beams. Note that in that last picture there are still at least two more rows of beams in front of the Warlord, which I could have moved forward and caught but did not. I didn't count, but you could probably heal in excess of 1200 HP if used on a beefier hero (or a Warlord with HP items).

    My suggestion: Is it possible to cap the amount of health gained form this spell? If not, make the spell channelling or fix the Warlord in position (still able to attack and use skills) until the spell is over, so at least he cannot get the full heal himself.

    On another note, I think it ought to be For The Shogun's Glory, not For Shogun's Glory, as Shogun is a title and not a name.

    Banner of Honour

    No comment, since you've said you're remaking this skill.

    Dragon Souls

    Nothing wrong here. A great, balanced spell, I love it. :D



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 12.05.2006, 03:53


    Shinobi

    Fear of the Dark

    Issues: It's weird, but even after nerfing, this plus Abstraction make the Shinobi ridiculously hard to kill when there are many creeps around.

    My suggestion: Change the way Fear of the Dark works. Don't nerf the value (given that it is now 13 at max level, that would look a little ridiculous); instead, raise the value, but limit the number of units the Shinobi can leech life from. This would allow you (the creator) to fine-tune the Shinobi's survivability, as it will be possible to get a true picture of how much he can leech with Fear. Bear in mind when balancing that Fear of the Dark, remade in this way, will become a better offensive weapon when fighting other heroes.

    Nothing wrong with the rest of his skills.

    -

    Yumi Samurai

    Issues and suggestions: Her skills are fine (Magic Trap seems a bit too hard to use, and the explanation is unclear, but I need to try it a bit more first), but her stats are whack. Why does she have so much strength? It seems strange that out of the six heroes currently in the game, the one ranged hero has the second highest strength and HP. It's her highest stat, even! I think it definitely needs a nerf.

    Her int might be overly generous, too. Perhaps she could take a hit there, too; make players think a little instead of just spamming Strafe (I remember the name now, heh) and Rain of Arrows whenever they're cooled down.

    Her agility, on the other hand, could use a slight buff. I understand the need to reduce her natural deadliness due to the (as of now unique in Samurai Legends) benefit of a ranged attack, but the way it is she is better played as a caster than an archer, and that's a pity. She just attacks so slowly! If neccessary, some damage could be taken off Yumiya no Michi to compensate for a buffed agi, or it could become a percentage chance.

    In short, a bit less int, significantly less strength, more agility.

    (On another note, shouldn't the Yumi have a family name as well?)

    -

    Yari Samurai

    Sha'Technique

    Issues: It sucks too bad. The damage and chance to proc is not sufficient to help you much in farming or hero killing, particularly with the Yari's low natural attack speed and the absence of Gloves of Haste equivalents in SL. Early game Whirling Yari and Battle Rage are too useful to pass up, and by the time you have points to spare for Sha'Technique, 60 damage is a joke.

    My suggestion: Keep the damage progression the same, but increase the % chance with level. 15%/20%/25%/30%/35% sounds reasonable to me, and would actually make this skill useful.

    (I actually wanted to suggest bonus damage based on strength or normal attack damage instead, but that could get out of hand late game and be too weak early game.)

    By the way, the Battle Rage hotkey isn't working.

    -

    I think that's about it for heroes, at leats until the No Dachi arrives. :P



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 12.05.2006, 18:42


    Thanks again.

    Warlord:

    Teppo now lasts 6 seconds and slow is 40/45/50/55/60. Don`t know about the damage yet.

    Banner of Honor now increases damage of all neabry allies by 10/20/30/40/50 %.

    Also fixed the imbalance of Shogun´s Glory, units can only be healed once each cast now. :D

    Yumi:

    Changed her stats.
    Reduced damage of Strafe against buildings.
    Fixed the Strafe hotkey.

    Yari Samurai:

    Will increase the damage of it, cause I think the skill is else ok.

    Shinobi:

    Will have shorter duration I think.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 12.05.2006, 19:15


    Yay, sounds good to me, mostly.

    Dunno about the nerf to Fear of the Dark. I worry that it will then become useless when there are no creeps around. But you know best. :)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anonymous - 22.05.2006, 04:33


    I played it today, testing it in a one-on-one match. After playing with many heroes, I ended up enjoying the Yari Samurai, although playing with him was not what I expected.


    His first skill is nice, but the Damage progression is low. Also, I have no idea of how the "knock back" works... does it have to do with the skill level?

    I mean, it's his main killing tool, as you can force the enemy to go into your towers (by backstabbing him), and I guess it's your only chance to kill an enemy.

    Would it be possible do do a slow effect after it? Or a stun? Also, I think the mana cost doesn't increase after leveling it... maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.

    Or you could make the character run towards the enemy, and then deliver it. Would allow you to use it as a finishing move as well.




    His second skill (Battlerage) is nice, but the movement speed reduction and the attack speed reduction are really strong. I felt somewhat useless while using it... although in later levels, you can tank a lot with it. But, after the spell ends, you'll be almost dead.

    You can't even use this to survive at all, unless you're really near a tower, because the slow effect will make it impossible for you to run properly.

    I'd suggest removing one of the reductions (and leave the other, of course), or reducing their value a little bit... the movement speed loss make it impossible for you to chase heroes down, even after delivering the first skill (which I see some sinergy with).

    Or... it could increase the armor, or the regen, so it'd turn you into a living tank, with no real killing possibilities... but it'd have some use.




    Regarging the third skill (Sha Technique), I think it's somewhat weak. The strength could add some damage, or the level progression could add a higher chance...

    Or, just make it some sort of cleave attack, delivering a percentage of your damage to that area... and each level would just increase the chance (like, 10/14/18/22/26% chance of dealing 60% of your damage in an area around you).




    The ultimate is amusing... I really like the transformation and such. Ok, you get extra Hit points, life steal... but I don't like the way it goes.

    Each level just increases the bonus hit points, right? I think it's bad this way, I would leave the skill at level 1 if there were better skills for him.

    Why not make it add bonus STR, instead of hit points? Just convert the hit points to STR, and add it as a bonus for the ult... it'd not only increase the damage (making you get more HP per hit), but also sinergyse with the first skill, and potencialize the effect of the second skill.


    Also, 25% life steal could be reduced a bit for each level... like 20/21/22/23/24/25%, per level.



    That's it... I'll register another day, so I may start participating more often here...

    Keep up the good work! I see a lot of potential in SL... and I really like the atmosphere and such.

    I'd also enjoy bots, if possible... because it'd hard to find enough people to make the matches enjoyable. Cheers.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 29.05.2006, 23:49


    Okay, I suspected this earlier, but I just played a couple of games that confirm it (IMHO of course). The Ninja's ultimate needs a nerf. It deals way too much damage relative to other spells in SL. The problem is that it is possible to hit a stationary target with all three blink attacks. I think the AOE of each Fan of Knives ought to be reduced so this is not possible (or at least harder to achieve). The damage per knife should also take a slight hit.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 30.05.2006, 22:55


    Yes Flying Daggers needs a nerf, atm it`s rocks too much (maybe because the spell itsself is so hot ;) )



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kouenzan - 31.05.2006, 14:17


    about yari samurai - he's the most boring hero in SL (1 offensive skill like sven or sK <- boring heros..)

    solution: combine battle rage and oni into one ultimate oni skill

    and make another active skill that will synergize with the first skill (blink behind then skill is the only synergy i can think of..)

    but i find this hero great, i like the 1st skill.. :lol:



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 31.05.2006, 16:14


    I think I remove the movement speed reduction from Battlerage, so he can catch up heroes more easily. What do you think?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 31.05.2006, 21:06


    I think you could lose the attack speed reduction, too.

    While we're on the topic of Battlerage, I'd like to propose another change: lower the Strength cap, but give it a duration that scales with level to peak at longer than it is now. 30 seconds would be plenty for an offensive skill, but this is defensive, and usually leaves you almost dead after. 25/30/35/40/45 seconds, 15/20/25/30/35 would be reasonable, and more useful than it is now.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 31.05.2006, 22:24


    Just increased Kaze´s damage by 50.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 01.06.2006, 07:49


    Cool.

    Back to the Yari: From what I have observed, the life steal from the ult seems to be an orb effect, as I have not noticed any increase in life gained when using it together with the Nine-Headed Dragon. I think either one of them should be changed to a 0 radius Vampiric Aura instead, because every Yari is going to get a Nine-Headed Dragon anyway, rendering the life steal from the ultimate virtually useless.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kouenzan - 01.06.2006, 13:33


    hey combining battle rage and oni may solve yari being boring.

    Oni
    Lifesteal, Bonus HP, and Battlerage

    :)

    (oh wait, i have to think of new skill for him if you like :P)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 12:49


    New observations:

    Yumi Samurai - Ult is too good against towers, too weak against heroes. I suggest making the arrows fall faster, but significantly reduce their damage against towers.

    Strafe is too powerful at point-blank range, but you probably already knew that.

    Ninja - Shuriken is too weak in damage and has too long a cooldown for a nuke with no useful side-effects (and one bad one). It can often be outrun with Skywalker Boots, too. Buff the damage, please, or reduce the cooldown.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 03.06.2006, 15:46


    Quote: Yumi Samurai - Ult is too good against towers, too weak against heroes. I suggest making the arrows fall faster, but significantly reduce their damage against towers.
    She is no hero killer, shes da queen of siege .

    Quote: Ninja - Shuriken is too weak in damage and has too long a cooldown for a nuke with no useful side-effects (and one bad one). It can often be outrun with Skywalker Boots, too. Buff the damage, please, or reduce the cooldown.
    Reduced cooldown from 20 to 15 seconds.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 18:50


    Quote: She is no hero killer, shes da queen of siege .

    Well actually she is a great hero-killer with the current broken Strafe, but point taken nevertheless. :) If Rain of Arrows works this way by design, fair enough.

    Quote: Reduced cooldown from 20 to 15 seconds.

    Hm, still seems a little high to me with the current damage, but I'll wait and see.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Metal Sonic - 03.06.2006, 19:34


    You do have to take into consideration the fact that it fires multiple shruikens and can be used as a multi attack if there or many guys nearby or a single medium-damage attack. That does still seem slightly high though, perhaps 12 or something?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 19:48


    Yeah, but you would never want it to hit multiple targets. It is only 300 damage at max level; you need that concentrated on one target for him to feel anything. Plus, you can't really spread it across mutliple targets by intention. When it happens, it happens by accident, and it is usually a bad thing.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 05.06.2006, 09:52


    Just fixed shurikens. The shurikens no longer deal damage to allied units, they just go through so it`s easier to hit.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 05.06.2006, 16:33


    Cool.

    I have also noticed that it is easy to outrun them with Skywalker Boots on; it seems they will only track for a certain distance? Perhaps this distance could be increased, or the speed of the shurikens buffed.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 06.06.2006, 00:21


    It`s supposed that the shurikens can be outruned by Skywalker Boots (notice that skywalkers will have a much shorter duration next version), Way of Death or Flying Death, I like those ability which require skill to use or to evade. For me this adds excitement to the game, when you have 200 hp and activate skywalkers and manage to escape followed by some shurikens :P



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 10:23


    Ah, okay. Fair enough. It just seems a little too easy to outrun somtimes (and I say this as the person running :P).



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 07.06.2006, 23:22


    Notice that the temporary boost from Skywalker Boots will shorter in the next version, so you can´t outrun it very often.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 11.06.2006, 13:05


    I'd like to modify my suggestion for Teppo: as it is now, it is too good, pure and simple. There is no need to give it a buff in slow % in order to make up for the nerf in duration. Progression should be 38%/41%/44%/47%/50% for 6 seconds, rather than what I suggested earlier. Sorry for that bit of madness. :P



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Ikthend - 12.06.2006, 01:05


    Hey, just felt like signing up on the forums and giving my oppinions on some things.

    Ronin: I think that Flying death should recieve an increased cooldown, or reduced stun time. From playing, I've noticed Ronins using Flying Death, Kaze, and then another flying death almost immediately after, stopping the hero for a good long time, not to mention dealing a load of damage. I also don't like the seconds of immunity for the Ronin after Kazing, as even if heroes were trying to help a hero who was just Kazed, the Ronin can manage to shrug them off and finish the wounded hero.

    Oh, and not sure if this is meant to work or not, but I've noticed that a Ronin can Kaze a Ninja who's using his fan of knives/blink attack. (The name alludes me currently.) I've also noticed that a ninja can net a ninja while they're using the ability. Just figured these were things I'd bring to your attention, just in case you didn't mean for them to work like that.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 12.06.2006, 07:12


    Hi Ikthend! Nice to meet you.

    Quote: Ronin: I think that Flying death should recieve an increased cooldown, or reduced stun time. From playing, I've noticed Ronins using Flying Death, Kaze, and then another flying death almost immediately after, stopping the hero for a good long time, not to mention dealing a load of damage.

    I can't agree with this. Kaze --> Flying Death is a legitimate chain, but Flying Death --> Kaze --> Flying Death requires that your opponent just sit there and eat the first Flying Death, as there is no reason he could not dodge it unless another hero has disabled him already. Note also that Kaze's damage is quite lackluster, as is Ronin's normal attack damage, to be frank.

    Quote: I also don't like the seconds of immunity for the Ronin after Kazing, as even if heroes were trying to help a hero who was just Kazed, the Ronin can manage to shrug them off and finish the wounded hero.

    That's a bug, and will be fixed.

    Quote: Oh, and not sure if this is meant to work or not, but I've noticed that a Ronin can Kaze a Ninja who's using his fan of knives/blink attack. (The name alludes me currently.) I've also noticed that a ninja can net a ninja while they're using the ability. Just figured these were things I'd bring to your attention, just in case you didn't mean for them to work like that.

    Yes, that is a strange thing. I've noticed it too, but never said anything since I don't think it can rightly be called a bug.

    nooK, perhaps consider granting heroes with this sort of ability spell immunity for the duration? Right now that means the Ronin's Airy Charge, and the Ninja's Flying Daggers. They would still be attackable, so it is not unfair, and it would solve the problem of Ronin always eating a full Strafe/Shuriken when they use Airy Charge on a Yumi/Ninja, or taking a blast from Dragon Souls.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Galefury - 12.06.2006, 08:13


    I can agree with magic immunity during airy charge and ninja ulti and the like. But I think ultimates should go through magic immunity. That would also help with balancing the anti magic potion.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Skirn - 12.06.2006, 19:59


    I don't know about you, but I don't think most people can see a Ronin coming at you from no where, I sure as heck can't move quick enough to dodge it if he suddenly appears in battle, though they can run after getting back up from the Kaze, Flying death is still cooling down...of course...

    That really


    Won't stop


    a good Ronin.


    From experience, even good players get hit by this, and running in a zigzag isn't very effective when you have an army at your heels. The stun is enough for a team mate to finish them, or if they are slightly wounded it'll usually bring them to near death, making it pretty devastating, perhaps enough to be considered a balance issue.

    (Note: Without adding in the normal attack damage that you get from the stuns, it'll deal between 500-700 damage, that's in about 10 seconds without aid)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 12.06.2006, 21:24


    Skirn: Quote: I don't know about you, but I don't think most people can see a Ronin coming at you from no where, I sure as heck can't move quick enough to dodge it if he suddenly appears in battle, though they can run after getting back up from the Kaze, Flying death is still cooling down...of course...

    That really won't stop a good Ronin.

    I beg to differ. To land 2 totally unchained Flying Deaths requires a fair bit of skill on the part of the Ronin player and a fair bit of noobishness/lag on the part of his opponents. Plus, what will this happy (for the Ronin) coincidence of personal skill and enemy noobishness/lag give you, really? 220 x 2 + 350 = 790 damage. The Warlord need only Teppo and then Dragon Souls and he will have done a guaranteed 675 damage without even trying.

    Quote: From experience, even good players get hit by this, and running in a zigzag isn't very effective when you have an army at your heels.

    You don't counter it by running in a zigzag. You counter it by changing direction once Flying Death is cast.

    Quote: The stun is enough for a team mate to finish them, or if they are slightly wounded it'll usually bring them to near death, making it pretty devastating, perhaps enough to be considered a balance issue.

    Dude, Ninja, Shinobi, Warlord and even Yumi are capable of killing full health opponents all by themselves (barring potions/WW/etc.). I don't think Ronin's 1337 'use all my skills to bring you near death' is anywhere near a balance issue. Ronin is underpowered, not overpowered. And he will be buffed.

    Don't take my word for it, though. Try me. :) I mean that in the nicest possible way; it is always good to have another SL player to play with and pwn/be pwned by.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    MinsanLngTo - 13.06.2006, 15:19


    I demand a buff ont the ronin!!! he is my fave hro but his skills are weak!



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 13.06.2006, 20:21


    You are in no position to demand anything, but anyways. As far as I know, Kaze will get damage boost of 50 and Airy Charge speed will increase. Correct me if I'm wrong.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 13.06.2006, 22:25


    Yes that´s right, will buff the Ronin a bit.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kevar - 14.06.2006, 04:49


    I can vouch for Skirn. He's absolutely lethal with the Ronin, and he hits experienced players with flying death all the time. I agree with the buff Ronin is receiving, though - his moves might be devestating when chained alongside mine (I play Yari - shoving the person into a flying death is a common strategy, we're nearly telepathic), but pubbies won't have that advantage.

    Also, to get that impression, I think Ikthend might have been in one of our games. We've been hosting it a lot.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 03:19


    I experienced that first hand yesterday. :shock: I have to say Skirn delivered very well on his claims. I have achieved such results with Ronin before, and with quite a similar style of play, but that was versus people new to the game and not decent players like (I like to think) myself. Actually I think there is only one way to play him properly, which is to always be on the lookout for opponents putting themselves in positions where they will be unable to dodge a Flying Death (like in the middle of creeps) or staying near your tower even when their last two creeps are about to die, and punishing these mistakes without fail. Kaze --> FD first, ask questions later. :P

    Anyway, I played Warlord laning against him at bot and he utterly suppressed me, and in doing so decided the game. I guess Ronin is pretty much designed to counter Warlord, but still I'm not used to even 0.7's imba heal doing so little to save me.

    I am a bit torn as to whether this indicates that Ronin's buffs in the next version should be reduced a little. I'm leaning towards not. I did play a second game where I had rather more success countering him with Yumi (a game which my team eventually won, but it involved heavy usage of Scroll of Ghosts, so I am not too proud), and I imagine I might have had even better results with the Shinobi, who can beat Ronin at his own game. So I stand by my earlier remarks that Ronin is actually underpowered; Skirn experience of pwning with him all the time is due to the fact that he is a good player and his opponents are not as good. Quite simple.

    Kevar, what's your handle on East? Would like to add you.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kevar - 15.06.2006, 05:26


    Same as it is here. Kevar. Skirn offered to introduce me to you tonight, but I told him I'd rather wait to greet with my spear. I'll add you as well.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 15.06.2006, 12:24


    Quote: I'd like to modify my suggestion for Teppo: as it is now, it is too good, pure and simple. There is no need to give it a buff in slow % in order to make up for the nerf in duration. Progression should be 38%/41%/44%/47%/50% for 6 seconds, rather than what I suggested earlier. Sorry for that bit of madness.
    Maybe tweaking duration instead of slow would be better, what do you think?
    50% slow on all levels.
    Duration: 2/3/4/5/6 seconds



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Galefury - 15.06.2006, 12:35


    Doesn't really matter. Just keep in mind that Cromis suggestion would be much stronger at level 1 than your variant (38% slow for 6 seconds > 50% slow for 2 seconds). That's only a numbers difference, though.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 15.06.2006, 15:43


    nooK, yes, that would probably work better. Thumbs up.

    Galefury, that's true, and is another reason why nooK's way is better. I don't know why, but somehow I have been firing nothing but blanks lately as far as balance suggestions are concerned. :P

    Kevar, cool. So you are the one who had to go shopping. :P Hope to see you in-game soon.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kouenzan - 06.07.2006, 11:11


    any buff on Shinobi?

    his ulti just rocks (or it is just me)

    the image goes back and forth slashing multiple enemies, purple light striking enemies, that's the way it rocks. can't screenshot those moments! buff on it so it rocks more? (add the % chance :lol:)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 06.07.2006, 11:40


    Why buff when he already rocks :?:



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Black_Mage - 29.08.2006, 10:23


    Hey do u thing Yumi samurai has too mmany hp 1200 , I think it should be lower down a little bit like 1050-1100



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 29.08.2006, 11:58


    She had more than 1200 in 0.7 if i remember right, in 0.8 she has 1125hp on level 20 :)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Black_Mage - 29.08.2006, 15:19


    Oh,okay.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 30.08.2006, 03:58


    Y'know... even though it's probably be said many times, the Shinobi is rather overpowered late game. And yes, I do know how he works - I have played him several times.

    Attack the enemy base with him and eventually it will die - for Shinobi will not. It takes not only a full 5v1 hero gank to kill him, it also takes a lot of luck.

    Give him some good items like a couple of suits of samurai armour and lifesteal? Then he simply will not die. Period.

    One might argue that this is okay because he can't really deal much damage either. Well... I've won games with him almost single handedly, through sheer patience and determination.

    Level farm --> Reach L15 --> Attack top/bottom --> Stay there, 'cause you're invincible --> That lane dies --> Push to the hall, or kill the bottom/top first. Either way, you're going to win.


    The reasons for this are two skills.

    1. Abstraction. For an ability that has a relatively low trigger rate, this seems to block all significant damage. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but from watching it it seems to phase him out of existance for about a second or two, in which time he takes 0 damage. When I see a shinobi being attacked on all sides, he's basically in that 99% of the time - the 1% being a transition state between phases. This.. doesn't seem overly balanced for a non-ultimate skill, given that it gives him near-invulnerability any time he's doing anything useful (Attacking a lane, with troops spawning and whacking him).

    2. Fear of the Dark. Well... what can I say? I've seen, and been, a shinobi with 1500 max health attack an outpost and just keep hitting it until it dies. Any time that he gets hurt, he can just turn on this skill and steal it ALL back. It's not hard at all to be surrounded by creep - heck, with other heroes you put a lot of effort into not letting this happen. Shinobi relishes it, and becomes unkillable. What's more is that this skill acts twofold! Ever tried to finish a game against a high level (15+) shinobi? It takes -forever-. He can perpetually hold the main base against any number of creep, so you have to kill the main hall with your heroes. If they're repairing with peasants, it takes all the longer. This aspect makes the endgame very tedious, especially if the shinobi knows what they're doing and is turtling on purpose.


    His other skills are fine :D



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 30.08.2006, 12:55


    Good points, I know that he is nearly invulnerable in 0.7, combined with his ultra high movement speed (320) and Way of Death he is able to flee from the few situations where he could have been killed.

    To Abstraction:
    In 0.7 he fades out for 1.0 sec.
    I will try a 0.7sec fadeout for the next version, if it´s still too high or if I have to tune the chance to abstract - we will see.

    Fear of the Dark:
    Hm, two options:

    a) Lower the damage/leech
    b) Making the cooldown very high, so he can´t refill his health all the time

    I tend to the second variant.

    Way of Death:
    Will be the same as in 0.7, except it deals 25 more damage on every level.

    Stats:
    Movement speed will be reduced from 320 to 290. So running away with Shinobi will be quite hard. Als he gains about 5 more damage.

    Overall a bit more damage and less survivability for Shinobi.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 30.08.2006, 22:30


    Is it not possible to just cap the maximum HP he can heal every second?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kai Okarian - 31.08.2006, 04:54


    Yes, increase the cooldown on FoTD.

    However, with Abstraction, maybe have it be a smaller percent? Like, say, 10% or 15% at level 5? If 10%, 2% per level, if 15%, start with 11%, so 12%, 13%, 14%, 15%.

    I know that may seem low, but when surrounded by an army, he'd still be hard as hell to kill.

    And if you keep at at 25%, maybe make it so ultimates can at least hit him? Nothing is more annoying than using Kaze/Flying Daggers/<insert skill name here> than to have it be evaded.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 31.08.2006, 14:51


    Perhaps it would be better to just change Abstraction to more of a vanilla evasion, dodging the attack that triggers it. . . .



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 31.08.2006, 15:11


    But then it would be just odd normal evasion?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kai Okarian - 31.08.2006, 15:45


    Better an odd normal evasion than an evasion that has can cause people to leave the game (waited for the timer to Force Pick for me, got Shinobi, pubbies on other team used ults on me, I dodged them, they left, claiming the standard "hax" whine.)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Forbidden - 31.08.2006, 18:07


    I have run across incidents where Ronins Airy Charge doesn't really do even nearly as much damage as its supposed to. Ill give you an example of a situation I have faced.

    I played a game where I was Ronin with a Ninja as teammate and was versus a Warlord and another Ronin. Mutiple times I beat the warlord to near death, on some incidents to below 150hp. The warlord vs me had a tendency for itemwhoring. Anyway, most times he activated Skywalker boots to run away from me when he got to low hp, and usually I of course chased after him with Airy Charge (was lvl 4/5 so 50/60 dmg per strike) and he used no potions or healing along the way. Anyway my Airy Charge ended up doing most times 5 to 6 strikes (version where number of attacks isn't limited to 5) which should equal to 5x50 - 6x60 damage to him minus the armor reduction. Anyway as far as I count this makes WAY above the 150 hp he had left, but in the end as I watched his hp it always barely dropped 10 with every hit. Totaling to something like 50-60 damage + his hp healing rate. In other words it barely did any damage to him at all. Whats up with that?

    So how much does armor reduce the damage? And what type of damage is the damage from Airy Charge? Or does the damage dealt have something to do with how "clean" of a hit it lands (since Warlord was running away with skywalkers activated fast that it barely seemed to hit him)? Or why did it deal so little damage? If it does damage like that it really is even more useless than Cromis and others have pointed out.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 31.08.2006, 20:45


    That's more or less true, nooK, but what's wrong with that? A passive survival skill is a passive survival skill, whether it's evasion or pseudo-evasion. I don't think I would play Shinobi significantly differently if Abstraction worked by, say, healing the hero by X damage every time he would receive X damage (when it procs, of course).

    The other viable option I see would be to keep the v0.7 fade time of 1 second and just nerf the % chance to proc, like Kai suggested. That would maintain the distinctiveness of the skill while not making it imba. Keeping this unusual mechanic, but nerfing the fade time instead of the % chance just seems like a bad compromise to me.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 01.09.2006, 03:15


    In 0.8, the Ronin's Airy Charge has a serious buff. Additionally, it it changed from Physical damage to Spell damage.

    Rest assured - it rocks now. :)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 01.09.2006, 12:15


    Lyncor wrote: In 0.8, the Ronin's Airy Charge has a serious buff. Additionally, it it changed from Physical damage to Spell damage.

    Rest assured - it rocks now. :)
    In detail - Number of hits decreased, damage per strike increased. Airy is also a lot faster now. Physical -> Spell so that anti-magic potions and Onmyonji's Shikigami block it.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 03.09.2006, 12:30


    Greetings,

    I'm Mac, a member of the KoNL Clan on Battlenet.

    Ive just got a few issues to discuss concerning the 0.8 beta we have recently played.

    I dont know if these things have already been addressed but i just thought i'd put forth my ideas.

    This is mostly to do with the No-Daichi Hero.

    Two things, first off, Rising Dragon. Its an awesome skill and does good fair damage and the range makes the fact its unblockable okay, only thing that made it cheap when fighting as him was the cooldown. It is very fast and allowed me to almost spam the skill in battle. I think the cooldown should be increased in order to balance it.

    Secondly, Order of the Six. Very cool concept for a skill. The reduced damage to towers was a great add-on. Only thing that makes it a little unfair. The movement speed of the images seems to increase making it increasingly hard to catch the images and stop a player using Order of the Six just running one image away everytime and making him near impossible to kill.

    I hope these thoughts help at all and cant wait until the full version is released.

    Samurai Legends for the win! *grins* Cheers.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 03.09.2006, 13:01


    Shadow Phoenix wrote: Greetings,

    I'm Mac, a member of the KoNL Clan on Battlenet.

    Ive just got a few issues to discuss concerning the 0.8 beta we have recently played.

    I dont know if these things have already been addressed but i just thought i'd put forth my ideas.

    This is mostly to do with the No-Daichi Hero.

    Two things, first off, Rising Dragon. Its an awesome skill and does good fair damage and the range makes the fact its unblockable okay, only thing that made it cheap when fighting as him was the cooldown. It is very fast and allowed me to almost spam the skill in battle. I think the cooldown should be increased in order to balance it.

    Secondly, Order of the Six. Very cool concept for a skill. The reduced damage to towers was a great add-on. Only thing that makes it a little unfair. The movement speed of the images seems to increase making it increasingly hard to catch the images and stop a player using Order of the Six just running one image away everytime and making him near impossible to kill.

    I hope these thoughts help at all and cant wait until the full version is released.

    Samurai Legends for the win! *grins* Cheers.

    - Hi Mac.

    1. Noted and discussed about. Cooldown is getting increased to 13 seconds. It is also dodgeable with some skills. (Flying Death for example)

    2. The main strenght of the skill is surrounding enemy hero with the images, and if the movespeed is low, it will be damn hard to pull out. (without ally stuns&slows)




    No-daichi soon after doing surround, when the formation had already broken.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 03.09.2006, 13:19


    Hola again,

    Oh yes i know the surrounding is the main purpose of the skill, and Lyncor and others know it too :wink:

    I dont mind it at all, i just had a few complaints from other players about it being a little bit unfair, but then again, they did manage to slaughter my image runner and force me to scatter into the woods (Quite hard to make 6 different images run in 6 different directions :P )

    Alas, they were hunted down and i got my just desserts, hehe.

    Sweet as man,

    Samurai Legends for the win!



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Kouenzan - 17.09.2006, 10:42


    warlord's heal, its mana is too CHEAP :( ok for the cooldown but for the mana cost, constant 100?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Meh - 17.09.2006, 10:48


    Oh no don't mess with my warlord anymore. T.T The mana is fine, if you want the spamablity downyou shouldsay the cd needs to be longer. Imho I think the warlord i .07 and .08 are almost different heros. >.>



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 17.09.2006, 19:31


    Yes in 0.8 he`s 2 times cooler ..



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lord.DarthVader - 18.09.2006, 05:43


    Litlly thinks...

    What is wrong and Imbalance for me:

    Only Ranger Yumi Samurai Hero using fireshot and last Speel to attacking bulding and this inballance for me not fear for all. :(



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 03.10.2006, 15:52


    Now that 0.82 is out, I'd like to hear your opinion, especially about Ronin balance, overnerfed or not? I'd also like to know that are magic traps a bit imbalanced in your opinion? (75 mana for 3 sec stun and 250 dmg on average area, impossible to destroy trap and hard to evade unless know where the trap is laid. Can also be set on enemy base.)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 03.10.2006, 16:08


    I haven't tried 0.82 yet, but I always thought traps should be manually targettable if you can see them.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 03.10.2006, 16:20


    But you can't see them. Towers don't have true sight, nor does anything else and the traps are invisible from the moment they are set.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Forbidden - 03.10.2006, 17:49


    Ronin overnerfed, yes I think so. I suggest give Kaze back the 2 second stun and to counter it, make Kaze have maybe 2 second casting time (as if the Ronin gathering strength to leap in the air and drawing his sword slowly in that cool way that Samurais slowly pull out their blade). This would also limit his combo capability that tegeus pointed out to be abit strong. It would make FD :arrow: Kaze the way to do it, since Kaze :arrow: FD would be harder to pull of.

    Stun traps strong yes, spammable, cheap, effective. More cooldown, more manacost or both. If thats too much nerfing then make the area just a bit larger to balance it.

    And remember folks: Think about happy land.
    (Yeah I know...I don't get it either. It's just what Nieminen says.)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 03.10.2006, 19:48


    Forbidden wrote: Ronin overnerfed, yes I think so. I suggest give Kaze back the 2 second stun and to counter it, make Kaze have maybe 2 second casting time (as if the Ronin gathering strength to leap in the air and drawing his sword slowly in that cool way that Samurais slowly pull out their blade). This would also limit his combo capability that tegeus pointed out to be abit strong. It would make FD :arrow: Kaze the way to do it, since Kaze :arrow: FD would be harder to pull of.

    Stun traps strong yes, spammable, cheap, effective. More cooldown, more manacost or both. If thats too much nerfing then make the area just a bit larger to balance it.

    1. Instead of changing Kaze function, I've been thinking about just balance changes. How about cutting Kaze cooldown by about 5 seconds, keeping Airy as it is now and resetting FD cooldown to what it was in 0.8. Maybe nerf the stun by about 0,5-1 sec instead?

    2. Magic trap, keep the range, increase mana cost by 10, keep damage but reduce stun by 1 sec. Cooldown may be what it is now I guess. I'd also like to find a solution for laying them into enemy base, but I haven't managed to come up with anything this far except for making them vulnearable to magic so they can be nuked out if you know where they are. (Unless some kind of system can be made which makes traps visible and destroyable at tower range)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 03.10.2006, 22:24


    Forbidden: Quote: I suggest give Kaze back the 2 second stun and to counter it, make Kaze have maybe 2 second casting time (as if the Ronin gathering strength to leap in the air and drawing his sword slowly in that cool way that Samurais slowly pull out their blade).

    Nothx. Kaze's strength is in its instant effect and the ability to interrupt that comes from that. Put it a casting time and half its use is gone. Definite overnerf.

    Omerta: Quote: But you can't see them. Towers don't have true sight, nor does anything else and the traps are invisible from the moment they are set.

    Dust of Appearance? I can't imagine anyone actually buying it just to see traps, but if they do, they deserve to be able to target them! :P

    Quote: How about cutting Kaze cooldown by about 5 seconds, keeping Airy as it is now and resetting FD cooldown to what it was in 0.8. Maybe nerf the stun by about 0,5-1 sec instead?

    Don't reset the cooldown to 0.8-level; find a middle ground.

    And nerfing the Kaze stun is totally, totally pointless. The stun only needs to be long enough to guarantee that you can land a Flying Death; no one actually spends the stun time attacking, and if they did they would only get in 1-2 attacks.

    Quote: I'd also like to find a solution for laying them into enemy base, but I haven't managed to come up with anything this far except for making them vulnearable to magic so they can be nuked out if you know where they are. (Unless some kind of system can be made which makes traps visible and destroyable at tower range)

    Making them susceptible to nuke damage is a bad idea IMHO. There are just so many AOE spells in the game that such a change would make traps useless. FD = dead traps. Warlord ult = 1 screen of dead traps. Onmyoji ult = 1 lane of dead traps. etc.

    Simple solution: give base towers (and only base towers) True Sight.

    I actually don't get why traps should be so problematic. When first introduced, they sucked; now that the triggering radius has been buffed, suddenly they rock? Surely the triggering radius can just be reduced to somewhere in between the two values and it'll be fine.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 03.10.2006, 22:28


    Quote: And nerfing the Kaze stun is totally, totally pointless. The stun only needs to be long enough to guarantee that you can land a Flying Death; no one actually spends the stun time attacking, and if they did they would only get in 1-2 attacks.
    When 2 sec it gives FD one more sec to cool down and if allies are around one extra sec to bash on the victim.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 03.10.2006, 22:34


    1) Another second for FD to cool down is too situational to count for much.

    2) The allies bit is a good point, but it doesn't really start to be very significant till the late game. Early on the Ronin either kills just through his nuke chain or with the aid of allied nukes; one more second of physical attacks at that point is negligible.

    I guess what I'm saying is go ahead and nerf the Kaze stun, but don't expect it to have a huge effect on balance.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 03.10.2006, 23:47


    Quote: I'd also like to find a solution for laying them into enemy base, but I haven't managed to come up with anything this far except for making them vulnearable to magic so they can be nuked out if you know where they are. (Unless some kind of system can be made which makes traps visible and destroyable at tower range)
    Why shouldn`t you be allowed to lay them in base/expo?
    It´s awesome to lay one trap near the towers then falll back a bit, cast Rain of Arrows and if the enemy heroes comes out to pwn you he runs into the trap (if placed right). BOOM =)

    Quote: I guess what I'm saying is go ahead and nerf the Kaze stun, but don't expect it to have a huge effect on balance.
    It has already been nerfed :P
    I released 0.82 already two days ago, you missed that cromis? :P



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 04.10.2006, 04:28


    Ahahaha! No, I actually have had one game of 0.82.

    I played as Ronin.

    I didn't notice. :P



    Re: Hero Analysis

    hanzel2m - 06.12.2006, 07:12


    well I only got one thing to say
    they are too slow imo
    idk if this is because of the huge map, or because they are slower



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 06.12.2006, 10:27


    hanzel2m wrote: well I only got one thing to say
    they are too slow imo
    idk if this is because of the huge map, or because they are slower

    Do you run around with or without kegutsu boots?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 06.12.2006, 17:30


    Hero mobility in SL is actually quite good. If you compare it with DotA (which is what I assume you're doing, judging by your other posts), you'll see that the average movespeed is more or less the same. The map is bigger, but there are fountains in the side lanes, which means you shouldn't have to travel to and from base as much as in DotA. Plus, there's a teleporter, which is pretty handy, and though there is no BoT-equivalent, TP scrolls allow you to target units. It all works out fine.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 06.12.2006, 18:34


    + Shrine of Calling ;)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    hanzel2m - 06.12.2006, 20:13


    oh ok, so in fact they are quite fast huh?
    well To be honest, I don't actually like the map, not just because it's very big, because it has 4 lanes isn't it??
    and well when you want to go back to your base, there are no teleporter, So I hope you are going to make the map smaller :D

    and as for Shrines, I actually never made any xD
    because they are too expensive imo, well not expensive, but the Honor points are troubling me, 10 honor pts and 3000 Gold
    10 Honor points... I have to destory 5 towers, then what about the items? I would waste my honor pts just on the Shrines, When I need the items

    and, no I didn't use the boots ><
    Because of the fact that we only get 300 Gold in the start of the game, I think you should increase it to 2000 or something
    Just like DotA



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Forbidden - 06.12.2006, 20:46


    All you need to do is kill 2 heroes...Just look around at who of your enemies isn't too smart and go kill him twice. You don't need 100+ damage to do that. Just use your spells...Many heroes in Samurai Legends are weak in the hitpoint department.

    Shrines are definitely worth it and no way are they too expensive. The towers don't fall easily for a reason. And that reason is that shrines exist. The thing that makes them extremely valuable is that a lane with shrines can stay undefended by a hero. It frees up a hero to hunt for heroes in other lanes, giving you a 2v1 situation somewhere. Also, not even a hero with masses of strong items can defend a lane which has a lot of shrines built in it. Items are nice and all...but itemwhoring isn't how this map was made to be played, period. You just need to realize that some things are different than DotA.

    And I repeat...stop steering Samurai Legends to be even remotely similiar to DotA in gameplay. I know nooK will never make the mistake of making SL like that. If you dislike expensive items and challenging gameplay then go play DotA. There's not even the slightest lack of DotA games out there.

    I don't give a damn if this is a personal attack on DotA. it's just the simple fact that I am a person who hates that map from all my heart. Nothing any of you say can change that fact. So it's pointless to throw arguments of DotA's excellence at me.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    hanzel2m - 06.12.2006, 22:41


    well ok then, I guess if someone make a guide to shrines would be veyr helpful, because they are kinda expensive imo, and kinda hard to get honor pts when playing single player



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 07.12.2006, 03:38


    ...single player?

    This is not a single player map. Try playing it on battlenet sometime.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 07.12.2006, 03:49


    Single.. play-er..?

    ...

    *Brain explodes*



    Re: Hero Analysis

    hanzel2m - 07.12.2006, 04:27


    well why not?
    you could always play Single player.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 07.12.2006, 08:10


    Except that there's absolutely NO point?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 02.01.2007, 11:11


    Shinobi's movement speed needs to be put back up a bit, seeing as how he's no longer imba invulnerable.

    290 is just crippling. I suggest 300, same as Ronin - the 'normal' movement speed of SL.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 02.01.2007, 12:55


    Good idea Lync :) You got the beta?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 05.01.2007, 10:59


    Woops, i didnt see that Lyncor had already posted about Shinobi.

    Sorry about the PM nooK :lol:



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 05.01.2007, 11:15


    No Problem Mac ;)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    KinG - 07.01.2007, 12:49

    NINJA
    Question: About the ninja's shuriken, was that really designed to be blocked by the allies? When you activate it to a target and there's an ally on the way, it will block the shuriken and the target wont be hit.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Omerta - 07.01.2007, 14:30

    Re: NINJA
    KinG wrote: Question: About the ninja's shuriken, was that really designed to be blocked by the allies? When you activate it to a target and there's an ally on the way, it will block the shuriken and the target wont be hit.
    "Working as intended."



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 07.01.2007, 14:34


    Quote: - "Shurikens" now hit allies but don´t damage them

    :)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    KinG - 07.01.2007, 16:38

    thanks!
    Oooppss! sorry guys.. i didn't notice it in the change list.. i started playing Samurai Legends in its 0.85.. thanks guys!!! When will 0.87 be released? Is there a tentative date? :)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 08.01.2007, 02:04


    It's in beta now.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 18.03.2007, 11:43


    Hmmmm.. so, regardless if people think this is just KoNL crying out imba i dont care. For the sake of the populace that play SL this must be adressed.

    Im not gonna start on the general "Nothing has changed, in fact its worse" of the No-Dachi. But ONE thing must be addressed.

    Everyone remembers in 0.7 how the Shinobi was invulnerable because his Abstraction triggered 20 times a second when surrounded by creep cause it had no cooldown?

    Okay, now take that same situation and replace the 20% dodge with a 10% chance to do 110 damage in a AOE. And you have the new No Dachi.

    I personally dont care because i have decided to no longer support or play any versions past 0.9 but for the sake of countless pubs that are going to cry and this i think something should be said.

    Im not going to argue this cause it doesnt affect me, if you dont choose to change it and just leave it fine. Do as you will.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 18.03.2007, 12:21


    *cries*



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Forbidden - 18.03.2007, 15:46


    A shame. I didn't think you one to "give up" SL over this. Even if you may still play the older versions...Hope you will change your mind.

    I don't necessarily like the new "No-Dachi skill" either, because it's too similiar to Sha' Technique. I believe what I'm about to say now is what you would expect from tegeus, because he - supposedly - "cares only about the numbers."

    The "No-Dachi skill" now is pretty much exactly the same as Sha' Technique, but with different numbers. It has a 10% chance to deal 110 AoE damage. Sha' Technique has a 20% chance to deal 90 AoE damage at lvl 5. I'm well aware that No-Dachi and the Yari are different heroes. However when you look at the numbers, it shows that Sha' Tec. > N-D. skill.

    Every 1/10 attacks (statistically speaking) deals 110 AoE dmg with N-D skill. On Yari every 2/10 attacks (statistically speaking) deals 90 AoE damage. In addition to this, Yari has higher attack damage with his normal attacks.

    PS. I REPEAT: I don't necessarily like this new version of the skill either.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    wizard.dark - 18.03.2007, 18:32


    I agree,i dont like the fact that its very similar to another skill.Cause then how can we say we cant have another dodge for another hero sugestion simply cause it has diffrent name and slightly diffrent numbers?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 18.03.2007, 20:51


    This isn't 'just KoNL crying out imba', it's 'SP overreacting again'. One new skill on one hero is imba? Okay, make your case and try and get it changed in the next version. What's the big deal? Imbalances are almost unavoidable in any multiplayer game; why do you think Blizzard is still patching TFT to this very day? And nooK is one guy, not a multimillion dollar studio. Take a chill pill and get some perspective.

    (Edit:) It's particularly hilarious that you're throwing this tantrum over a change that was made in an attempt to fix a skill you've been complaining about.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 18.03.2007, 21:33


    Quote: I personally dont care because i have decided to no longer support or play any versions past 0.9 but for the sake of countless pubs that are going to cry and this i think something should be said.

    Im not going to argue this cause it doesnt affect me, if you dont choose to change it and just leave it fine. Do as you will.
    If you don´t care, don´t post here.
    Go, play 0.7 or even better get a new map you like.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 19.03.2007, 03:24


    forbidden: its a 10% chance every time you are hit is it not(on no-dachi skill)? if you want you could get hit more than 2 times that of the amount of times you would hit some one as the yari, right? (correct me if i am wrong)

    wizzard: i don't understand what you mean....

    tengaus: dose one man represent a clan. no. at the same time we support our clan mate if we agree with them and do not if we don't agree with them. the problem is we want to play the no-dachi but he has been inba since he was put in and that makes us sad, and the attempt as you say to fix him has not really helped(sorry nook but its true :( ).
    also it seems to KoNL that well nooK, "the great one"... dose not care about us(enyones veiws form KoNL) or about what this map....was....

    nooK: *sigh* you usta be a demi god to some of us
    ...now...
    what did KoNL do to you man? how did we make you so hostile to KoNL? we only ever wanted a balanced version, thats all we ever asked for...was that to much to ask? :(



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 19.03.2007, 05:47


    No Dachi was changed because you guys have been complaining. Did the fix work? I don't know, maybe not. If it didn't, does that mean he isn't listening to you? No, it means he made a mistake. It is v0.91, not Uber Balanced No More Patches Official Final Version 4evah.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 19.03.2007, 06:42


    you addressed nun of my points but i will counter your argument and hope that some one dose address them.
    so KoNL is the sole reason for the no-dachi being changed? no one else had a problem with him? um ok fair enuf, but could it be half of the people that post on this forum regularly are from KoNL? meaning half the people who care enuf (about this map and what is happening to it) to come online and post a little are members of KoNL and most of KoNL share the same views, could this also mean that maybe KoNL care and are not just hear to wine and complain about "inba new stuff", posably there here to try and help

    well shit i have so just been rambling away from the point *considered deleting, shrugs*

    any way we at KoNL (inc :P ) like to discus things before posting etc, discussing amongst our self such things as no-dachi and these items etc. we often come to a consensus on such things. just from looking at things we can often see how they would fit/effect the game of SL because of our pooled knowledge of SL. so year if we seem to always complain that is because we believe we foresee what it would seam others are blind to, and that is the things that will damage the reputation of this map, and the original design of the map. so sorry if we do not take the best tack. but we have been proven right. :(
    also i am sorry if we are asking/demanding/expecting to much of people.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 19.03.2007, 07:25


    I don't disagree with anything in your post. Please remember that I didn't just decide to come online and flame you guys. I was responding to SP's temper tantrum, where he interpreted the fact that No Dachi is not yet to his liking to mean that nooK craps on his clan, then declared that he would stop playing. My whole point is that he's overreacting, that the No Dachi change is actually an indication that nooK is listening and is trying to fix perceived problems, and I specifically stated that "this isn't 'just KoNL crying out imba', it's 'SP overreacting again'".

    Stop looking for trouble where there is none.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Viziroth - 19.03.2007, 08:59


    Tegus is right, guys stop over reacting. Be diplomatic. Anton Good posts and just like to say I agree, and Tegus ty for not overly retaliating back at SP.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 19.03.2007, 10:59


    *sighs* Seems no one ever understood what i said, or even know how the No Dachi skills ability even works.

    Forb said:
    Quote: The "No-Dachi skill" now is pretty much exactly the same as Sha' Technique, but with different numbers. It has a 10% chance to deal 110 AoE damage. Sha' Technique has a 20% chance to deal 90 AoE damage at lvl 5. I'm well aware that No-Dachi and the Yari are different heroes. However when you look at the numbers, it shows that Sha' Tec. > N-D. skill.

    Im sorry, but you are incorrect.
    Yari is a character who naturally has slow attack speed correct? Sha Tec. is Everytime HE ATTACKS.

    No-Dachi, pretty fast attacker right? DOESNT MATTER. Dachi skills detonates for 110 AOE every time he GETS attacked.

    Hence Sha' and Dachi skills are NOTHING the same in how they work. Hence why i used the Shinobi example. But maybe alot of you dont remember, or even played 0.7

    So i shall refresh your memories.
    Old Absraction, 20% chance to phase out with NO COOLDOWN. So when he was surrounded by a huge push he was invulnerable because the skill was being activated about 4 times a second.

    Dachi skills, with the 10% we can agree that it half of 20% right? Which means when surrouned by a huge group of creep the 110 AOE will go off still multiple times a second. And tell me its a fine skill and nothing is wrong with it. And think back to if you thought anything was wrong with the unkillable 0.7 Shinobi.

    Now please read and understand that before you try to tell me why Sha' is better.

    Secondly,

    Quote: Quote:
    I personally dont care because i have decided to no longer support or play any versions past 0.9 but for the sake of countless pubs that are going to cry and this i think something should be said.

    Im not going to argue this cause it doesnt affect me, if you dont choose to change it and just leave it fine. Do as you will.

    Quote: If you don´t care, don´t post here.
    Go, play 0.7 or even better get a new map you like.

    I believe i said exactly why i posted there. For other players, which shows im not even addressing this because i want it changed for myself, cause i dont intend to play further versions. And also i do believe this a public forum and just cause you dont like me or Lyn or whatever anymore because of what we say doesnt really give you the right to just tell me to piss off when we havnt made any personal digs at you outside of this map.

    And i should say, im speaking for myself, Mac Islas, not Co-Chieftan of KoNL.

    Now please read the example and respond in a way that is helping the map, not just trying to contradict me or point out somewhere i didnt make total sense. Im sick of everyones great points being ignored because everyone cares more about proving others wrong.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 19.03.2007, 11:06


    *Reads the No Dachi Crit Replaced Thread AFTER posting back in Hero Analysis*

    Okay, cool. It seems you guys got what i meant about the No-Dachi skill. Fantastic, thank you. No need to reply to my previous post as its already been addressed and tegeus is taking steps towards discussing it and ideas that could be implemented. Thank you tegeus, its appreciated :)



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 19.03.2007, 11:07


    I´m sick of you complaining about every change away from 0.7

    0.8 came out - everybody was complaining.
    0.91 came out - everybody was complayining because of some new, not even strong items which are heavily overpriced.

    Replace "everybody" with KoNL, or any Dota Fanboys because those act the same way when a new version comes out., where their holy game is changed for the better.

    0.8 was a good step and so is 0.91.

    Get your mind free of all your biases and think some minutes about the new items, how strong/weak they really are or go on living in your nostalgy.

    And I never insulted you, I just said go and play some other map if you don`t like mine anymore.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shadow Phoenix - 19.03.2007, 11:15


    Cool :)

    I wish you and KnoT the very best with the clan you two are making and SL from here on out. You will no longer be hearing complaints about the map from me.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    nooK - 19.03.2007, 11:23


    Knot and me aren`t making a clan. I never said so and never will.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Forbidden - 19.03.2007, 11:28


    Okay, then I read it wrong. Excuse me for being only human and making mistakes. Guess we need to hang me now then. Or would you prefer tar and feathers?

    I still said I didn't like it either. Even less after now seeing what it's really like.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 19.03.2007, 15:50


    Well, like I said, I haven't played 0.91 online yet, so yeah, I was mistaken about how the current crit replacement works. I'll edit the thread I posted accordingly.

    I hope everyone can get a bit of perspective about this. By this I don't mean what other people have already said, like talking civilly, etc., as I've been around forums to accept that people will get pissed off and attach snippy remarks to their arguments sometimes (as I've been doing a lot the past few days, I know), and it's no big deal. Comes with the territory. What I mean byt 'getting some perspective' is this:

    @SP and the rest of KoNL--If a version comes out that's imba, you can always stick with an earlier version until such a time as a version more to your liking comes out, surely? Or, since you play as a group, it shouldn't be that hard to agree to ban something that is truly gamebreaking for your games. If I could get two teams of total strangers to agree not to pick the Yari in 0.65 (I know it was only bugged on one side, but it was in the interest of fair hero match-ups), I'm sure the bunch of you playing in any given game would be able to convince the newbies to refrain from purchasing Ultima Weapon or whatever the hell it is you consider so imba.

    If you'd do this, maybe you'd get less worked up over things you don't like in SL, and maybe then you'd be able to get your point across more clearly. No one likes feedback when it comes in the form of complaints and accusations. You need to recognise that no version is going to be free of imbalances and give nooK more credit for what he has done. Balance is an ongoing process; that's just the nature of any multiplayer game. Even WC3 is still being patched. At least the symmetricality of SL means that barring genuine bugs, any imbalances are going to be between the relative strengths of heroes/skills/items, not between the two teams.

    @nooK--People are just wired to complain. It's easy to feel entitled to a map that's to one's liking, and forget that the guy who's creating all this is doing it purely out of itnerest/goodwill/whatever and not getting a cent for it. It's easier said than done, I know, but you should try to ignore the emotive trappings of posts and just consider what is actually being said, and consider or dismiss it based on that. Don't let it get to you, man. You're doing good work, and if some things don't work as well as they could, most of us do realise that it's natural and to be expected. There's always something that could be better..



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Skirn - 20.03.2007, 03:55


    I'm going to be frank.

    Because frank is easy.

    We do say "Don't get this." All the time. Most people listen, not a big deal.

    But that doesn't change the fact the issue needs to be addressed in the forum, after all, if no one says it's unbalanced, why would it change?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 20.03.2007, 04:51


    Quote: If you'd do this, maybe you'd get less worked up over things you don't like in SL, and maybe then you'd be able to get your point across more clearly. No one likes feedback when it comes in the form of complaints and accusations.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Skirn - 21.03.2007, 00:15


    Quote: If you'd do this, maybe you'd get less worked up over things you don't like in SL, and maybe then you'd be able to get your point across more clearly. No one likes feedback when it comes in the form of complaints and accusations.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 21.03.2007, 05:23


    skirn you should no by now that using tegeus's approach dose not work on him(i have tried :D ), its like he has anti external perspective shield :P any way tegeus why did you repeat something we have already read(why no why skirn did it (he was trying to be cool like you :D ) ...we already read it *is confused* ...i don't get it, you should give reasons when quoting stuff ;) it would help in keeping the confusion to a min..and i would greatly a apresheate it :) thanks.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 21.03.2007, 07:36


    Skirn said 'But that doesn't change the fact the issue needs to be addressed in the forum, after all, if no one says it's unbalanced, why would it change?' I quoted a passage from my post that states very clearly that you should do those things, but do so clearly and calmly, lest your tone drown out your content.

    Any further questions?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 22.03.2007, 00:34


    forgive me if I'm wrong but dose the quote that you made basically just say take a chill pill and maybe you will get listened to, no one listens to some one who is wingeing,complaining or just gives negative feedback?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Skirn - 22.03.2007, 01:05


    And me quoting him was being ironic for how zealously he defends things that can often times be considered the exact opposite of what his quote says.

    But yeah, that's what it means.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 22.03.2007, 04:10


    thanks for clearing up your view point skirn.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Attin - 23.03.2007, 20:22


    Well... i 1st posted this to the ideas-section, then realized: HEY, that a totally wrong place, but here goes...

    ---
    Ronin is an Agility hero and what do you expect of agility hero ?
    -> Attack speed

    Ronin simply just attacks too slow... even slower than Warlord, which is an intelligence hero...

    While Ronins attack speed beign average, warlord has fast attack speed, even though it doesnt have that much agility to start with... so my question at this point is -> WTF, how can an intelligence hero have more attack speed than Agility hero... ?

    So im suggesting that Ronins attack speed should be increased... quite much if not even significantly

    I would also suggest either increasing its amor or hp due to the really low armor he has atm... :o



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 24.03.2007, 00:57


    Ronin isn't a melee attack spammer. He's a Skillcaster.

    If you learn to use his skills, you don't end up using his normal attack much. He doesn't need a buff to it.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Viziroth - 24.03.2007, 03:40


    Just play a game with skirn or lyncor and you'll find that out o.o



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 24.03.2007, 10:09


    What they said.

    I can definitely see how Attin could have gotten confused, though. Death Poem, anyone? That thing really needs a remake. Of course it should be lower priority than other things, since the hero as a whole is balanced.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Attin - 24.03.2007, 10:12


    I am using hes skills and pretty well actually... i can take out any other hero...
    But beating a Yari "The brickwall" samurai (Sometimes even a No-dachi) at full level with those skills just isnt enough, so there the normal attacks are needed usually...



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 24.03.2007, 10:18


    Well Attin, SL isn't a 1v1 game. If Yari could be taken out in seconds by a single Ronin at max level, he'd be a gimped hero, since his whole point is to absorb a ton of damage and still go on fighting. Ronin deals great burst damage, but that damage also comes with a hefty stun. Doesn't that just screams 'combo me with another hero'? Try Dragon Souls.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Attin - 24.03.2007, 10:31


    All that i was suggesting was an attack speed increse least to fast-level... :o

    And yep i also think that deathpoem need reworking a little, since Ronin is a skillcaster, why does he have such a bad passive skill, i quite rarely even get to use the deathpoem in action, since its the last skill that i get usually...



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Lyncor - 24.03.2007, 15:44


    Death Poem sucks because his other skills are amazing.

    He doesn't -need- a fourth skill, so he has a throwaway.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 24.03.2007, 18:25


    I personally don't believe heroes should ever have throwaway skills. It should be possible to retune a hero so that all his skills are useful without changing his overall power level.

    Like I said, though, low priority, definitely.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Attin - 24.03.2007, 21:17


    Throwaway skills (LIKE Deathpoem) are bad and useless...

    And it makes no sense if Intelligence hero has faster attack speed and higher armor than an agility hero, it just doesnt :?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    wizard.dark - 25.03.2007, 01:59


    I dunno if ur basing this on like ur defenition but a warlord....is a leader of his troops commanding him...therefor he has strong armor and alot of power to protect him.
    A ronin is a samurai with no lord,hes basicly a rogue although i dont kno if he kills for honor or gold(he looks prety honorable) so he is a hit and runner.And as for armor...he has no armor on him so hes by concept a weak hero who doesnt want to take damage.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Anton - 05.04.2007, 02:28


    is it not reasonable to say that a hero that has two to three amazing skills should not have one that is well useful only in specific situations? is this not a fair way of balancing a hero/skills?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Viziroth - 05.04.2007, 02:33


    Death poem has it's uses, like if you are facing a hero and your both at low life it could alow you to get that extra hit in to finish him. It's also good for seiging.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    tegeus-Cromis - 05.04.2007, 19:37


    It may be a fair way, but it's not a good way.



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Attin - 05.04.2007, 21:06


    tegeus-Cromis wrote: It may be a fair way, but it's not a good way.

    I think its neither fair or good :?
    its something that you cannot describe :?



    Re: Hero Analysis

    Shinkirou - 02.08.2007, 20:27


    wizard.dark wrote: I dunno if ur basing this on like ur defenition but a warlord....is a leader of his troops commanding him...therefor he has strong armor and alot of power to protect him.
    A ronin is a samurai with no lord,hes basicly a rogue although i dont kno if he kills for honor or gold(he looks prety honorable) so he is a hit and runner.And as for armor...he has no armor on him so hes by concept a weak hero who doesnt want to take damage.

    Well there's a couple things wrong with that logic. Your right that a ronin shouldn't have high armor because he isn't wearing any. Your also right that a Warlord should have higher armor because he wears strong armor. After that though you forget a couple of things.

    First, just because your a warlord it doesn't mean you should be stronger than everyone else. There are multiple times in history where its a warlords OFFICER that is stronger, and not the warlord himself.
    Second, because the Warlord is wearing armor he is encumbered. That means it's harder for him to move around. On top of this is the fact he is an int type, while the ronin is an agi type.

    Adding these two together that means the ronin isn't encumbered and his type is a speedier type. Thus the Warlords attack speed should NOT be faster than the ronins. If the Warlord is stronger and/or has more armor im okay with that. Just dont take a giant step away from reality.

    Im surprised so many people miss the point that Attin was trying to make with this. However, he should have had a reason behind his logic as well. Even though people say the ronin is a skill caster its hard to say when he has just enough mana for a set combo of Airy, Stun slam (cant remember its name, been awhile), then Kaze. After that I tend to find the ronins mana next to zero.

    Now before someone decides to fir at me with the flame catapults, let me set up my defense.
    1. I'm not sure if I have the most up to date version of the game. Im pretty sure, but im not gonna say I do then find out I was wrong.
    2. Uhh...crap >.>;;

    I joined this site to state my opinions as well as to bring more truth to that post.



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