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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: USArmy - Roxy - Observador Celeste - Phoenix Forum: www.iron-savior.com Forenbeschreibung: Official Iron Savior Forum aus dem Unterforum: General Discussion Antworten: 10 Forum gestartet am: Montag 03.05.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?") Letzte Antwort: vor 18 Jahren, 7 Monaten, 31 Tagen, 6 Stunden,
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Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
USArmy - 19.07.2004, 02:09Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
This is a continuation of that thread in a new topic. It should be a bit easier this way.
____
Someone cited Michael Moore?
I thought it would never happen. Roxy, I'm not sure where you're from, but in the States Michael Moore is known as a 'living joke.']
"I hope nobody will make the mistake of thinking this is a war of Good against Evil."
Can anyone tell me what World War II was? I guess that was a huge 'grey' issue.
Sorry, boys and girls; but wars happen between bad guys sometimes, and wars happen between good guys sometimes - and then there are wars between good guys and bad guys. Would you like to take a look at the records of Saddam Hussein/ Osama bin Laden, and George W Bush/Tony Blair?
Were there ever a case of "Good vs Bad" this is it. Pointing to the past mistakes of either country is a silly way of end-running the issue; of course no country in the world is perfect. But this isn't a war of nation's historys, this is a war of today.
You're nuancing the obvious into a state of moral ambiguity.
"I suggest you to read something from M. Moore"
Like I said; he's a living joke. I have read something from M. Moore. He twists and bends and morphs things to suit his radical political viewpoint. In one book he claims 200,000 people in the US alone have died from mad cow disease; in another he claims that the Army goes recruiting "minority" groups because they're stupid.
Oh wait, that was his recent documentary. Which was torn to shreds. By both those on the right and the left. Want some proof?
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/?GT1=3584
There's a piece written by Christopher Hitchens tearing Moore's new movie a gigantic orifice. This is surprising for two reasons;
Hitchens hates conservatism
Slate is notoriously liberal
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39079
Hezbollah supports Moore. Big surprise...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38776
Remember Fahrenheit 451? This is the guy who wrote it. He is peeved. Big-time. And, he's a leftist. Big-time.
Even the LA Times (THE LA TIMES?!) got in on the action. Checkit: June 22nd in their home edition; Patrick Goldstein wrote an article scalding Moore for his blatant inaccuracies.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/
Another respected source - MSNBC (left-leaning cable news source) - lambasting Moore's film.
"since there has been a time in which they helped each other"
One of the largest misconceptions out there.
In the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war, Hussein received very limited support, for a time, from US intelligence agencies. Why?
Remember up there when I said wars happen between bad guys and bad guys?
A perfect case. And we had to support what was at the time the least of two bad guys. There are other reasons we supported Iraq (anyone hear of the Cold War?), but that is the big one; painted in strokes of black and white. The 'love affair' dreamed up by Moore and other slantists lasted never.
As for bin Laden; lots of people point to the CIAs backing of the Mujahadeen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as some gigantic conspiracy to keep him alive. If only they knew the half of it.
For one thing, bin Laden didn't receive support from the CIA. People associated with him did - namely, the Mujahadeen. bin Laden himself put a gigantic amount of personal assets into the Mujahadeen; if he ever received (or needed) any help the CIA gave the (at that time) various disorganized groups fighting the Soviets, it was little more than ancillary. But again, I'm pointing to a big, black secret the world hates to admit - not everyone in the world is a good guy. This is another case of "bad v bad" gone awry. There was no reason to suspect that any of the Mujahadeen would come back as what they were a few years ago before Bush took them out of power.
"I see nobody here has ever mentioned the fact that Middle East countries are economically and strategically oh so important."
Another myth. OPEC doesn't have the vice-grip over oil supplies that you people think it does. The Russians actually have one of the largest oil reserves in the world: Right smack dab in the middle of Siberia. The Azeris also have a gigantic store: in the Black Sea. There are stores of oil in ANWR and the Gulf of Mexico. Right now, Venezuela imports more oil to the US than Kuwait.
While no one disputes the theoretical significance of the Middle East as far as current world industry/transportation/heating and oil stores go, the fact that a strong Iraq, with nuclear technology, was viewed to be a real threat not too long ago. And a strong Iraq threatened every nation in that region. The face of Middle Eastern politics would've changed.
If you want to look into 'money' and the Iraq war - you might check out Germany, France, and Russia's backdoor illegal dealings with Hussein, corrupting the "oil-for-food" program. All three nations resisted the war; France attempted active subversion of it. That might burst your "black crude red blood" bubble.
Anyone who thinks this is a "war for oil" needs to sue their school system for depriving them of the education they deserve.
"And why did the US government need to lie about mass destruction weapons"
Accuse the US of lying, accuse just about every other country who came out with an intelligence dossier on Iraq of lying. Even the Germans. Intelligence gathering isn't a perfect science. No one ever claimed it to be so.
"and not only... even the Pope firmly condamned it"
The Pope asked that Bush, et al, make sure it was a 'just war.' There are, I think, six tenets to the "Just War" doctrine. The Iraq War fits every one.
"the UNO"
The UN does not rule the US/UK.
"Why do they show some interest only now and didn't do anything before?"
No, we've shown interest for some time that regime change in Iraq was a stated foreign policy goal of the United States. In fact, a bill with that very wording was passed in the US congress and signed by then President Bill Clinton in 1998 - Bush just acheived it very recently. Mission accomplished, thank goodness.
Had we invaded earlier, would people like you have supported it? Probably not.
"Sorry, but I honestly think that the cry of money and power is much stronger than that of mistreated women"
Perhaps that is why the UN didn't do a darn thing in Rwanda. Or why it has ignored Darfur for so long.
If anyone thinks the US is making money from the war, they need a fact check. We just spent 87 billion to rebuild that nation. We're going to be spending a lot more.
"that are deeper issues behind, justified and disguised as heroism"
And what would those be, Celeste? More conspiracy theories?
"Yes, you are right, though I meant it just as a usual discussion and not a rivalry"
I only take politics personally when someone insults me directly. I don't think anyone here is going to resort to insults. We're all good. <G>
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
USArmy - 19.07.2004, 22:22Since I missed Celete's post...
I thought I'd post this. I saw a lot of relativism/idealism in that post; good points, to be sure, but ones that I think may be addressed by this quip/story.
___________________________
The Left and Right Answer...
THE HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION: You've parked your car and are walking down a street in a dilapidated neighborhood toward a baseball stadium with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. Being of sound mind and exercising your Second Amendment rights, you have a 9mm pistol and you are a competent shooter. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?
THE LEFTIST ANSWER: Well, first of all, I would never own a gun! Second, there is not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed -- am I his oppressor? Have I ever done anything to him that is reason for him to attack -- does he think I am a Republican because of my ethnic origin? Could I possibly knock the knife out of his hand or run away? What does the law say about this situation? Does he just want to kill me or is he going to kill my significant other? Is it really fair to assume that I have children? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my partner get away and call the police? This is all so confusing! Surely this question would be better answered by a focus group.
THE RIGHT ANSWER: Warn the offender then shoot the offender! Then take your family to the baseball game, sing the national anthem, eat some hot dogs and apple pie, and thank the Lord for one more day of freedom.
______________________________
Although intended for humor I think it sticks the point home; the offender may have been raised different, but it is a sad fact that a person is culpable for their actions, not their background.
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
Roxy - 20.07.2004, 12:34Re: You should check your sources...
USArmy wrote:
"and not only... even the Pope firmly condamned it"
The Pope asked that Bush, et al, make sure it was a 'just war.' There are, I think, six tenets to the "Just War" doctrine. The Iraq War fits every one.
Honey, you are talking to someone who actually LIVES in Italy. The Vatican is less than three hours by train from my house and I KNOW what I'm talking about. I don't know what the media told you, but I can assure you that that Dear Man (you see, though I'm not catholic I love the actual Pope we have for his simplicity and his way of acting like everybody's Granpa. He is someone who has shown to be open minded and really on the poor's side) was totally against it. It was a chaos here in my country, since catholicism is our National Religion, when he stated that this war was made by people who had their hands covered with oil (just to mean it was clear all this was started for money and power) and that if our government was going to take part to it he would have condemned its decision. There have been days of chaos in our Parlament because of this and I find honestly strange to see that he openly condemned our Prime Minister Berlusconi, but he supported Bush.... That's what I mean when I say that one should be careful when listening to what politicians say, since they sometimes manipulate the truth to get the support they need (and once again, I'm not talking ONLY of the States Government).
Oh, I forgot to say that I really don't get why you had to open another topic about this subject when there's already one... btw, once again it seems you take everything as a very personal offence toward your Nation and your culture, when it's not. I know well there are other countries with oil dirty hands and one is mine. But you make a mistake if you think your government is the only Good one, that's what I meant. And if you really think this is a good against evil war, well... you leave me speechless, 'cause to me it's unconceivable to consider *good* killing someone else's people. You make it sound a bit like a religion war or a war of a culture against another and if that's the case, it's pretty sad... If that's the case, remember in the past there was someone else who said *We are the Good ones and we'll kill all the Jewish (read Muslims) because they are the Evil*... the base is just the same, if you put it this way.
As for Moore, well, of course I don't think EVERYTHING he says or write is absolutely right (nobody is EVER ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, don't you think so? :wink: ) but I don't even think in the USA he's a living joke... maybe for those who has your opinion, but not for all the people there. My friend Tom from New York suggested me to read his stuff, you see... :wink: Ever wondered why the US Government is doing its best to keep his mouth shut? As we always say here, when someone wastes so much time and energy to hide something it's pretty clear he's got a dirty ass and quite a lot to hide...
Now, this time I only answered because that sentence about the Pope really surprised me, but as I already said to Rod I'm not going to answer this thread anymore, we'll just keep repeating the same things in the end.
I only want to add this... Harald reccomended not to say nasty words that may offend the others and he was right, but saying something like *we are the Good against the Evil*, though there is actually no offensive word in this sentence, is INSTEAD extremely offensive. Ever thought there could be someone from Iraq on this message board or from Middle East countries? But who cares, they are the evil ones, isn't it?...
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
Observador Celeste - 20.07.2004, 20:51- PEACE -
Ok.
I swear I could go on, answer and debating again, but it is pointless.
US Army: you've been raised, and educated to have those ideas; you are an American, that is how things work for your country, and nothing is gonna change that. Is just the way you think, you can't help it, and I accept it.
Roxy: The same goes for you and me. We've been raised, and have been exposed to a similar way of seeing life, and nothing is gonna change that. Is the way we think, we can't help it, and the rest should accept it.
I guess Roxy and I think alike because we are Latinos, and we share some felings that come straight from our genes, see? And US Army, you think like that because is also in you. Is like when black people proves to have a natural rythm and talent for music; entirely genetic.
I can assure you: we are just victims of our educations and genes.
I could also write a page or two to support that statement, but I don't think that anyone is interested in reading that much. I'll just say this:
a) We are never going to get others to share our vision of world or life, so why should we keep trying to?
We could keep listing a million reasons why we think we are right, and still it will get us nowhere, because they are not valid enough for the other side.
b) Let’s focus; we are here because of Heavy Metal and Iron Savior, not Osama, Bush, or the mothers or sisters of any of them.
c) Neither of us started this topic in the first place, so why this much interest in it? To hell with it!
d) We are wasting too much time…
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
Observador Celeste - 20.07.2004, 21:27Right answer..
I purposed peace, and I'm keeping it, but there's one last comment that I just needed to write, because it's burning me.
Sorry, mean no offense to anyone:
Quote: THE RIGHT ANSWER: Warn the offender then shoot the offender! Then take your family to the baseball game, sing the national anthem, eat some hot dogs and apple pie, and thank the Lord for one more day of freedom.
I live in Mexico, brother. I suppose you know by now that we are very used to beat the crap out of people, and just for giving us a bad look in the street... even more if they represent a real threat.
Just ask anyone what happens if you turn violent around here, or watch the news.
I know perfectly well the "right" answer. We have excelled in it. Here, the right answer has developed to a point where the offender doesn't even deserve a warning; we can pass straight to the shooting part, just to make sure.
We deal with the right answer everyday because we don't have a choice; that's why I do not consider it right anymore. I'm sick of it.
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
USArmy - 20.07.2004, 22:52You make it sound as if
"And if you really think this is a good against evil war, well... you leave me speechless, 'cause to me it's unconceivable to consider *good* killing someone else's people"
Saddam Hussein wasn't evil.
Can I get a, "Saddam Hussein and his brutal, totalitarianistic, homicidal regime was evil"
Seriously. Pope Pius XII said; "The sin of the century is the loss of the sense of sin."
Do you really believe the world is painted in shades of grey?
"you've been raised, and educated to have those ideas"
No, I haven't. I was raised to think whatever; at one time I was a Democrat. In school I was "educated" polar leftist; and only through my own personal discernment have I come out on the right of things.
"We are wasting too much time…"
I don't find it a waste of time when good men and women are dying in Iraq to secure a once oppressed peoples a better future.
"(nobody is EVER ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, don't you think so?)"
Only when the Church teaches infallibly. <G>
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
Phoenix - 25.07.2004, 07:05
I don't support any kind of war :roll:
I saw the war and it isn't anything good, brave and honorable in it....just plain killing for the sake of two leaders who can't agree around one thing. :(
I was 7 years old when war started in Croatia....I was witness of the bombing of my own city :cry:
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
USArmy - 25.07.2004, 07:11Darn wars
Except for Communism, Fascism, Nazism, slavery, and brutal Socialism, war has never solved anything.
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
Phoenix - 25.07.2004, 07:18Re: Darn wars
USArmy wrote: Except for Communism, Fascism, Nazism, slavery, and brutal Socialism, war has never solved anything.
War didn't solve that :roll:
Because of war those things appeared :roll:
War doesn't solve anything......
only the dead have seen the end of war (Plato)
Re: Iraq War (split from "do you support the war?")
USArmy - 25.07.2004, 23:16War didn't?
What did?
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