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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Schosch Forum: WIR SIND UMGEZOGEN Forenbeschreibung: Sie finden das Forum nun unter horizonfilm.de/forum aus dem Unterforum: Glaube, Religion und Kirche Antworten: 2 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 24.05.2006 Sprache: deutsch Link zum Originaltopic: Lebendig, kräftig, schärfer Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 7 Monaten, 22 Tagen, 4 Stunden, 3 Minuten
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Re: Lebendig, kräftig, schärfer
Schosch - 28.08.2007, 01:03Lebendig, kräftig, schärfer
This is a copy of an conversation between me (Schosch, Germany) and Judy from Hungary I think it is worth reading it despite it is quite long.
It begins simple but comes to more depth to the end:
Schosch: "It is the story of a the little prince who came from his small planet to learn about the world:
"The men where you live," said the little prince, "raise five thousand roses in the same garden-- and they do not find in it what they are looking for."
"They do not find it," I replied.
"And yet what they are looking for could be found in one single rose, or in a little water."
I think it is worth reading the entire book. "The little prince" from Antoine de Saint-Exupéry. Would love to hear some response on that.
Kind regards Schosch
<----------->
Hallo Schosch
I am not sure that many people knows what they are looking for , so how should they know where to search. But as we gradually learn about ourselves, it is getting clearer and clearer what we want to find ( settle in mind ) and notice much more than before.
This story is also one of my favourite but only since I grew up. My favourite part is when the little prince meet with the fox. That part helps me to explain what friendship means for me.
Good night !
<--------->
Hallo Judy
actually I think people are looking for a new car or a house with garden a rich husband or wife a good job and they think they need all of that things to be happy but they are searching on the wrong side.
The deeper truth is that you need nothing from all of it if you just begin to live, to love, to breath, to smell, to taste the life. The world is just so full of wonders that it is strange that we do not notice all that anymore. As much as we want all aboves things life is becoming more and more empty.
I think in this small book (The little prince) is much wisdom for adults and for children as well. I like every part of it. The part with the 5000 Roses is just an example for our search for the perfect partner. We are searching so many profiles and in the end (if it should be) there is one single profile that means everything to us.
Good night to you.
Schosch
<------------->
Hi Schosch,
Well, you are probably right that people are searching on the wrong side. Maybe they just never heard the secret, you know, what the fox said to the little prince.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
Have a nice day !
<------------->
Hallo Judy
I am just wondering if all people would live after the words: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Why then people drive the big cars and have the wealth and strive for having the big money looking for the beautyful ladies and getting rich instead to help their brothers and sisters in the 3rd world? Obviousely the car and the wealth are more important than the fact that people have less then 1$US per day living in poverty, that people die of AIDS because they can not afford the expensive medicene from the West.
Have a good day!
<---------->
hi Schosch,
You are right, but regarding sisters and brothers in the 3rd world, it is pretty hard to support them. I tried not even once but somehow I failed so the only thing I can do, just help in a close cirlce.
Not every rich people are greedy. Many people like their job and be on speed and even money comes, why not, just everybody has to learn how they can help, many way to do good things. Like many people want to save the rainforest or the polarbear. But of course, it is sad if someone live only to earn money to have a nicer house than the neighor has, "update" the car in the garage etc. And not even help their own sister and brother...
Good night !
<----------->
Dear Judy,
I posted a response to your thoughts yesterday but today I came here and it vanished so I will try to remember what I wrote and post it again and make it even better!
Well I was married to a lady from Cambodia (supposed to be one of the poorest counties in the world). It ended up that she stole all of my money together with my former friend, before that she caused to blow up my guesthouse business in Phnom Penh killing my mother in law instantly and got involved into prostitution. She left me alone with my son who is living with me today and forced me to start my life again from point zero in my home country.
Or one more example:
One year ago I wanted to start a small scale private project against HIV in Kenya Africa. After transferring three times money for a Computer and other required items worth 2000 $US I asked the lady, I employed for the project, to do some work for me and while getting nothing from her she asked me to transfer more money. So the project had to be quitted before it could begin.
And one more example:
Begin of 1993 I went as soldier to Somalia to stop the civil war, genocide and hunger there, only to see that the Melissa and warlords there still killed their own people, keeping the whole country and its people in a state of depressing terror and devastating poverty.
And one more example:
Middle of 1993 I went as UN soldier to Cambodia to bring peace and enforce democratic elections for the Cambodian people. But unfortunately after the elections I had to witness that the government changed to become a corrupted, despotic terror regime. Despite the fact that the UN spent more than 3 billion $US currency in Cambodia within a period of about three years the goals of the UN mission could not even enforced for one single year after the UN left the country. The UN mission failed in the end because there where certain governments that supported the regime in Phnom Penh despite the fact that it has become a corrupted, despotic dictatorship causing wide spread terror among their citizens.
You can see Judy, that I know what you want to say when you write it is difficult to help the people in the third world. I know that very well too, but fact is, if there is something difficult to achieve and it is hard for us to help, that can not be an excuse for us to help less, or to help nothing at all. Because the people we are talking about have no money, no education, they are sick and hungry, they are suffering because we destroyed their environment and looted and raped their country like it all belonged to us and as if there were no tomorrow.
And while doing so we became rich and wealthy and the poor people became even poorer. And today we came to a point where we really have everything now: Expensive mobile phones, satellite TV dishes, luxury cars, villas with pools, a good education, powerful computers, the fastest internet, the best food from all over the world, the most expensive medicine, and amounts of money that we can think about to buy even more from the things we could call summarized the symbols of a successful material life. Neo globalization has made all that possible for us.
And after becoming that rich we have the insolence to tell the poor people now that we are not even able to organize and find efficient and well working ways to help them? We could loot their resources for a penny but are not even able to find a way to pay back to them what rightfully belonged to them anyway? The bitter truth is that we are not really helping them because we are good humans -but we have to pay back for old sins.
If it is true that we came to a point where we have to say it is impossible to help our brothers and sisters in the third world. I suppose then we did not really try hard enough to reach that goal. And if it is not us, I ask myself, who else should do it and when? We are today in the position to find functioning ways to help poor people in the third world that in the future aid will become much more efficient and swift. So why wait and for what?
If everybody who is willing to help needs first to find out the best way how to do it best, how much energy and resources will be wasted just every time that is happening? And as we have seen above despite great efforts and willingness to help many of that people will never achieve what they attended to do: To help, -and will fail in doing so!
A better, happier, more just and more balanced world can only be achieved if we find ways to bundle our efforts, channel information, building up networks, working together with people in the countries affected, going new ways, having a radical attitude thoughts volunteering work and values beyond the material status symbols.
I never said that all rich people are greedy. If there would be no reasonable rich people who are willing to help others, it would become impossible to help someone anyway. So it is necessary to reach a certain wealth to have the basis and set into the position to help others. How could I ever deny that fact?
If it is really worth to waste resources to safe the polar bears outside a zoo unless all humans are rescued from poverty and hunger is a question I really do not want to be ask about…
I close now and hope to hear from you
Schosch
<---------->
Hallo Judy
It is always a bit of a work to answer you so I planed to do that today but your mail has disappeared from my Computer. It is neither in the trash box nor in the inbox.
Do you have a copy of it?
I read your mail twice yesterday, but that was not enough for me to remember all. I need a copy of the letter that I can respond. I remember only small fractions.
You wrote that you feel not guilty at all not to spend all of your money for your brothers and sisters in the third world. Nobody in this world is asking you to do that anyway. The question is: How much should we help others? Is there a point where we better stop helping and care for us?
Fact is that Jesus died at the cross and asked us to follow his example. He was the son of god and died at the cross for our sins! I think there can be no greater example for love and sacrifice ever! At the same time it shows us what gods plan really is. What god asks us to do and to what amount.
If you die instead of another person safe his life and sacrifice yours then you really can say: I gave everything I had. It is also true that not everybody can give his life and die for someone else. So what wanted Jesus to say when he said: “Follow my example in the cross” The answer is: When you give your life to help other people that need your help!
Mother Teresa said: “Everything is so simple. Why should someone need any guidance for my simple way of life. We need to pray only and begin to love each other. The first step consists of wanting it“.
Jesus said "You will recognize the truth, and the truth will make you free!" Johannes 8, 32 But what is the meaning of that words? Jesus wants us to become free of sins that we can live together with him in his father’s house in heaven! But Jesus also said: “Rather a camel goes through a needle eye as a rich man comes into heaven”. Is god really so cruel that men can come only into heaven if they have no penny in their pocket only when they are poor? That would be very bad news for us, isn’t it? Or vice versa is it enough to be poor to make it into the heaven? Certainly that is not true either! But what then is the truth that should make us free leading us the path to god?
The truth that makes us free is to see that we have responsibility for the sick and poor and hungry people in the world if we are in the position to help them. This truth makes us free and leads us the direct way to god. This responsibility to help others grows with the same amount of the wealth we are collecting. If someone is poor and can barely care for himself his responsibility for others is rather small because he has limited resources and need them for himself. But if you are rich or an international organisation or company is rich there are so many chances and possibilities to help other people that their responsibility to help is rather large.
If you are wealthy and want to live in the right way free from sin then you need to understand that your responsibility for others grows with the amount your wealth grows as well. That is like a universal rule, it is true like the Relativity theory with the difference that we are able to understand it.
Eckard Tolle a best selling Spiritual Leader said: We should live in the present because every single moment we live is now. Not yesterday not tomorrow. Stop thinking and live in the present. I admit that this is a way to stay out of trouble. But that can not be the solution for poverty, global warming, AIDS, civil war, terror and so much other problems we have. We need to think of solutions to bring us out of the misery.
Fact is if you live in the present you can not change anything and you have to accept everything the way it is. If everything would be just wonderful on earth than I would admit that to be right but this world needs change, needs plans that work otherwise we will destroy our planet and everything we have.
If we should just stop thinking Jesus could simply say: It is like it is. God will care for us. But Jesus asked us to do more: To give everything we have the best we can. God is not asking us for half things he is asking much from us. Because he does not need to become popular among the rich people. Jesus does not want that we give us up either but he want that we have the RIGHT PLANS for us and others.
Take care
schosch
<---------->
Hi Schosch,
Still regarding brothers and sisters in the 3rd world I can summarize my thought simply but reading your last letter you approach the problem in different aspect so you may find my thoughts simple.
I feel sorry for all those people but it is also very important to help them with SENSE. You can help in many ways besides money. As you also experienced, money didn't solve the problems moreover you had many loss and you got into troubles as well.
I don't mind helping people but it is also important that people in trouble should not just expect help but do something to get out from the bad situation ( of course if they can ).
So many poor people are in the world, not only in Africa and Asia, so one person can not save the world and no sense to sacrify own life. Many good examples as well how people are able to help to poor people with good ideas and well organised programs without lot of own loss or trouble. Good people and positive examples are also needed to show good example people and make them feel that they can also do something
Have a nice evening !
Judy
<----------->
Hallo Judy
Yes, people want too feel that they can do something that they can help. The best way to get that feeling, is just to begin doing something! And there are many ways how to do that. To think about solutions out of the problems we encounter in our world. And we can not say today that we come to a point where we solved that problems already the truth is the problems keep coming and are piling up additional to the heap we already have.
Mother Theresa kept it very easy when she said:
"The people are senseless, illogical and selfish, love them nevertheless."
"The good things you do will be forgotten tomorrow do it nevertheless."
"Honesty and openness make you vulnerable, be nevertheless honest and open."
"What you developed and elaborated in many years, can be destroyed in one single night, build nevertheless."
"Your assistance is really needed, but perhaps the people attack you, if you help them, help them nevertheless."
"Give to the world your best, and they will beat out your teeth, give to the world your best nevertheless."
I like that simple words they are so true and it hurts when you read it. You ask yourself: ”Why should I go and help the people that are acting just like fools? And if I help them everything is forgotten tomorrow. All what I have done is in vain all my work and good deeds are lost in one single night. Even if you are friendly and open to people, when you give your life, your time, the best you have to help them and the only thing they will do in return is to spit on you and occasionally beat your teeth out. And god asks us to do it nevertheless. It does not make much SENSE, isn´t it?
But why then should we do it nevertheless? The answer for that question is maybe more easy then you might expect. We should help others nevertheless because WE CAN.
We here in Middle Europe and other developed countries have the resources, the time and education and are enabled to help others. So who else, if not we, should help nevertheless? We should help because we call us human kin and the most important part in all our life is the humanity. Without humanity our world our society would not survive for half an hour.
You say we should help with SENSE. That means that we should learn from our mistakes or the mistakes of other people and help in the way our help works and reaches the one we are targeting. But that does not mean that we do not have to overcome difficulties in the progress.
Simon of Zyrene a farmer on the way to his house had to be forced to carry the cross when Jesus fell the 1st time because there was nobody who liked to carry the cross voluntarily. To that time when Jesus went to his execution nobody was there to help the One that helped so many others. Simon did not really want to help Jesus. For him it did not make SENSE because Jesus was a condemned criminal and a stranger in his eyes. He only wanted to go back home to his family. But even that forced help made Simon to a person mentioned in the Bible as the one who helped Jesus to carry the cross. (Cross way 5th station)
You see sometimes people need to be forced to do seemingly SENSELESS things because there is nobody else there to follow afterward and the first step is needed to make an impact. And the brothers and sisters in the third world do not want to hear that we will help them tomorrow neither about excuses or difficulties with the money or that they have to help themself. This people are sick, and hungry and exploited and forgotten and left to die from poverty, they are starving and meanwhile we are discussing about whether we should help them with or without money?
We will come to a point in our life when we have to say: "Well I have done so many things and now everything is lost and I did it nevertheless." You worked your entire life and did all things with SENSE and then there comes the point where all that material things become SENSELESS anyway. Everybody of us will come to that point and we know that very well. And when that time comes you will be very happy that you have done all that small SENSELESS things in your life. So why not do the right things now?
And the wonderful message of that idea is: That you and we all are doing it already in the small in our family with the people we love. We do all times good things to help our relatives or friends and children. We do that because we love each other and respect us. And all that we do not because it makes SENSE but because we care about each other.
In a global world it is only a matter of definition why we should or should not consider our brothers and sisters of the third world as our family as human kin our own blood! And where is the point that keeps us from counting our fellow brothers and sisters in the third world not as part of our own family?
What would be the world today without the great people that believed that it is worth to sacrifice their own life for a thing that was bigger than themself like Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa and so many others. Where would be the world today if this great people would not have inspired some of us to make a change?
I close now. Have a good week!
Schosch
Re: Lebendig, kräftig, schärfer
Schosch - 01.09.2007, 19:26Dear Judy
Dear Judy!
Actually I am not sacrificing my life for any people at all as long as they are not worth doing so. I would sacrifice my life to make a change in the world to become a better, more just and more balanced place or to rid the earth of AIDS but I am not sacrificing my life for something totally worthless. Goals need to be understood and set properly otherwise it is just a waste of time.
I believe that there are enough people in the world already and others keep coming. I would sacrifice my life and did so already to do the right things to make a change in the world to give an example to the children in the world or to make others aware of the problematic situation. But for people that keep looting the planet I will never do anything at all. Why should I do so? I would be part of the problem it I did!
I will never make efforts to help bad, corrupted people. I am even saying that it would be necessary to fight such people with the power of weapons and international pressure but the sad truth is that foreign aid is not consequently used as a lever for a better world but is given despite the odd fact that it is given to the wrong people.
Should there be any bad people benefit from my goals, for example when I do something against HIV, it is because my goals do not exclude anybody and not because I wanted to support that people. In fact there is the possibility that the wrong people benefit from what I do but that does not make my goals wrong nor does that make the bad people better or right.
Time proofs us that there is always a rather radical attitude necessary to make changes in the world. Democracy, freedom, or peace was never archived in history by just waiting for it, but because many people sacrificed their home, their freedom and even their own life to make a change. If today people expect that the world can get rid of AIDS, poverty or global warming just by sitting in front of the TV sets and watching the problems instead of changing their attitude towards it and begin working on it. As long as we are looking at our home planet as a piece of dirt under our feet, as long as we are experiencing our planet as a thing we do not depend upon because of all kind of silly stupid ideas or because there are people on it we do not like. As long as we are waiting for others to solve the problems we have as long we are part of the problem itself.
As long as we do not understand that we are responsible for our world as a whole, we are acting not more intelligent then animals that are just clever enough to satisfy their own current (local) needs but are totally unable to make a change at all. Actions and will is needed to make a better world. The change of attitude within the people is the key that will make all the difference in the world.
It is a matter of fact that people are always occupied with their small local problems that you do not need to tell them to look after that. But if we just continue the way we do it will be maybe too late to work on the real problems we have. If people keep themself busy trying to solve their silly small local problems we will never be able to solve any global problems. Unfortunately it is true what you say some people even do not care about their local problems.
But you can not earnestly believe that the burden is on the shoulder of one. Fact is the burden is already on everyone shoulder and it never have been everywhere else. Nobody can earnestly say that he does not depend upon this planet. But now must be the time to realize it, take responsibility and make a change and start into the new time with the right goals and with visions and lots of fight.
Good Night
Schosch
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