Verfügbare Informationen zu "UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE"
Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: Kurtl - Roy N - Pathfinder - Paul - micky - Anonymous - AAIR Forum: - Aero Part Identify Board - aus dem Unterforum: Teile mit Nummern / Parts with numbers Antworten: 39 Forum gestartet am: Donnerstag 15.02.2007 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE Letzte Antwort: vor 16 Jahren, 3 Monaten, 10 Tagen, 13 Stunden, 41 Minuten
Alle Beiträge und Antworten zu "UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE"
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 08.06.2007, 23:55UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Hello forum, I need your help.
Today I found that I would say "large" part of an aircraft in our local woods. Some numbers are on there: "222836R", "(R170)", "222374-6", "(R129)", "3122" (painted in black color), and the big letters "T AN A" also in black paint.
People who live there pretty close told me that it was a twin engined american aircraft. It crashed when there was snow. Probably in winter 1943/44 or 1944/45. The area is SW the town of St.Pölten in Lower Austria (or WSW of Vienna). Two men bailed out and one broke his leg. One had a ribbon angular around his chest with the german letters "ROTER HUND", which means "RED DOG". He was called that way by his crew because of his red hair. Sorry that is all I can offer. Maybe I can save some more parts?
I would like to identify this aircraft. Maybe someone even know it's crew and it's destiny? Any help is greaty appreciated.
Best regards from Austria,
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 09.06.2007, 00:41
Hi Kurtl
"ribbon angular" has no meaning in English. perhaps you could put the German words instead and maybe Nils could give another meaning in English?
were there only 2 crew or were there only 2 who got out alive?
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Pathfinder - 09.06.2007, 02:37
Hi all,
by the first few, I would say this are parts from german aircraft.
The type of riveting show it...
I will check this number tomorrow (Saturday) for more !
Kurtl,
pleae check the archive of the church close to this crashsite. they must have documents. Also the he older timewitness know maybe more !
Nils
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 09.06.2007, 18:14
Nils
its interesting that you think this could be German.
on the right in picture 1, and at the top of picture 3, there looks to be grey paint. i think its the wrong shade of grey for an American A/C. perhaps Kurtl could compare this with the shades of grey used by the Luftwaffe.
i can also make a German word out of the letters "T AN A". if there is room before the first "T" for more letters. im not going to say what it is because its seems unlikely that i am right ;)
i also wonder why an American would have his nickname written in German
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 09.06.2007, 23:37
Thanks for so much response.
I could not check the archive of the church right now. That will take some time but I already planned to do this. There is also a chronic /archive of the little townhall. Older time withnesses are rare. But I'm working on that.
I have no information if there was a third crewmember on board or even more. There was just the story about two parachutes with men on it. Both were brought to the next village by local farmers. One of the airmen had a ribbon around his chest or belly with letters on it. It's not sure that it was written in german but it had the information "RED DOG" or "ROTER HUND" (german version).
I agree with pathfinder. When I first saw the parts I thought that it is german. Today I was there again. Found some 12,5mm gunshell's and a huge part of an engine. There was a part with the letters "28 VOLTS". Right, there was an "S" after volt. So that would speak for an american aircraft. Look at the pictures below. I self still have my doubts regarding the first part.
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 09.06.2007, 23:57
picture 2 is the exhaust collector ring.. picture 3 shows a turbo super charger.. Nils and i are wrong. this is an American Aircraft. B24 or B17?
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Pathfinder - 10.06.2007, 16:56
Kurtl,
please try to safe this parts when it is possible !
I´m wondering about the type of riveting, but ok, it´s an US aircraft...
Maybe you can find some rating plates on this items !
Nils
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 10.06.2007, 19:00
Kurtl
as far as i know there were only 3 types of aircraft with this turbo charger in Europe. i have already named 2. the 3rd is the P38. it was a single seater. if there were more than one crew member, then P38 is ruled out. also P38 did not have radial engines. so exhaust would be very different to whats in the photos.
if you check the base of the 12,5mm ammunition you will find 2 numbers. 42, 43 ,44. etc. this is when the ammunition was made. it might help to narrow down the year of the crash.
i think its worth looking to find if there was a B17 or B24 called "Red Dog"
ive not heard of any US airmen wearing a sash or Ribbon with their nick name. they did have badges and paintings on their jackets with the nose art from their A/C. it could be coincidence that he had red hair
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 11.06.2007, 21:35
Hallo Kurt,
Noticed your entries on the other forums too !
Like said have a check for the shell numbers !
Grüsse,
Paul
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 11.06.2007, 22:36
Hello friends!
I also posted at www.armyairforces.com under "Medium and light bombers" and at www.ww2aircraft.net Feel free to look there too. The pictures I posted there overall are the same.
According the info's I got from there I believe that it was a P-38 "Droop Snoot" which was a bomber lead plane with a second crew member and a bomb sight on board. A part which speaks for this suspect is shown in pictures one and two. That shows a mass balance like used at the elevator on a P38 (at least it looks like that).
Picture three shows some bullet shells of the 12,5mm browning machine gune. I have my doubts that a "Droop Snoot" really was equipped with such (think of the space that was needed for second crewmember and gun sight). The shell bottoms all show the same three stampings: "W", "T" and "4". "W" allone would stand for: Winchester Cartridge Co., East Alton, Ill. , USA (according USA Cartheadstamp at http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk
I really want to save all of them. Just the supercharger will be a hard thing. I have not tried to dig it out yet, but be sure that part is heavy.
Looking now for further details about this special twin seated P38. Maybe someone from this forum knows something about it's missions and units. You know, any help is apprechiated.
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 11.06.2007, 23:01
kurtl
you are right. the drop snoot was not armed. it had a plexiglass nose
this link for a photo
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p38-8.jpg
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 12.06.2007, 16:37
Kurt,
Could it be Twin Cities Ordnance Plant (TW) ?
http://cartridgecollectors.org/ww2usmfrs/index.htm
Gr,
Paul
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 12.06.2007, 18:15
Kurtl
if this was a pathfinder (2 man) P-38 the crash could have been no earlier than 1944. the first use of these aircraft in europe, that i can find, was April 1944.
as there is ammunition with the wreckage is it worth considering the "Night lightning", night fighter as a possibility?. this P-38M had a two man crew. pilot, with radar operator sitting behind. this would obviously be armed. P38s normally had a cannon as well as .50MG. not sure about the nightfighter tho. i think they were painted black. any sign of paint on what you have found so far?
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 12.06.2007, 18:43
As Roy I intend to think of a M (nightfighter) version as .50 ammo has been found...
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p38-5.jpg
Paul
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 12.06.2007, 21:11
Guy's,
Did some checking and we can rule out the Night Lightning...as Lockheed built seventy-five P-38M Night Lightnings before the war ended; however, only four saw active service. These aircraft were assigned to the Occupation Force in Japan...
(Source P-38 Lightning in action by Squadron/signal publications)
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 12.06.2007, 21:34
i must admit i already had my doubts about this being an "M".
im sure there is grey paint on one of the parts above. it would have been all black if it was a night fighter.
the ammunition is very hard to explain. :???:
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
micky - 13.06.2007, 19:51twin engine
Hello, i have see these rivets again, it look like a Douglas Boston or A-20 Havoc...
Mick
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 13.06.2007, 21:31
Here is the bottom of the shell. All three I found look the same.
And here is another part. Let's call it cover for something electrical. There is a badge on it, unfortunatly heavily damaged. I tried to make readable whatever was left. What could that have meant?
It says: "SIGN..." , "DYNAMOT...", "1141..." and "...16A A..."
I doubt that it was a nightfighter P38. According the reports from there people have seen two parachutes coming down. Just doubt that this was at night. Maybe some "Droop Snoots" just kept one or two machine guns like kind of an insurance?
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 13.06.2007, 22:00
Kurt and all,
Just wondering if this item comes close....
WWII Aircraft Radio Dynamotor Unit BD-AR-93. The base assembly has a data plate which reads SIGNAL CORPS, U.S. ARMY, DYNAMOTOR UNIT BD-AR-93, MADE BY Western Electric. The motor itself has another data plate which reads DYNAMOTOR, TYPE PS-225, CONTINUOUS DUTY, V 28, V 375, A 3.25, A 150, MANUFACTURED FOR WESTERN ELECTRIC CO, INC. NEW YORK, N.Y., BY PIONEER GEN-E-MOTOR, CHICAGO, ILL U.S.A.
http://www.warbirdrelics.com/images/motor.jpg
Paul
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 13.06.2007, 22:16
Western Electric Co. NY contribution in WW2....
New York Western Electric Co Inc Airborne radar equipment, Vacuum tubes spiral 4 carrier system
:D
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Roy N - 14.06.2007, 10:41Re: twin engine
micky wrote: Hello, i have see these rivets again, it look like a Douglas Boston or A-20 Havoc...
Mick
i agree, this is another possibility. the A-20k was fitted with turbos and .50MG. the mass balance is the problem here.
Roy
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
micky - 14.06.2007, 18:37crash date
Kurtl, did you have any idea about the crash date? we can try to identify the plane on the allied losses. I have a copy of the Luftgaukommando files, index by date. Where the plane went down? let me know.
Mick
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 18.06.2007, 23:04
@ Paul: The cover I found could fit to the device you posted but I don't know. Wish I could find the missing pieces of that badge.
@ Mick: The plane crashed southeast the town of St.Pölten. If this town is too small take Vienna. About 80NM WSW of Vienna would be a good describtion. There is no bigger town close.
About the date I have no exact information. Only that there was snow, so it must be winter. Let's say Oct. 1943 till Mar. 1944 and Oct. 1944 till Mar. 1945. Maybe someone has information about snowcovers during that period?
to all:
I have not really found detailed drawings about an A 20K. Maybe they are somewhere available on the net?
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 18.06.2007, 23:26
Hallo Kurt,
Any other shells found other than the .50?
PS: How's the flying going on?
Grüsse,
Paul
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Pathfinder - 18.06.2007, 23:27
Kurtl,
here a list of crashed bomber near Vienna:
B-?? 41-29590 13.10.1944 3MIA 8 RES
B-24 42-50722 07.02.1944
B-24 42-51401 17.10.1944 8KIA 3POW (near Vienna)
B-24 42-51566 17.10.1944 6KIA 4POW (near Vienna)
B-?? 44-41070 17.10.1944
B-24 44-49146 23.03.1945
B-24 42-51764 13.10.1944 5KIA 5POW (near Floresdorf)
Regards
Nils
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 25.06.2007, 23:50
@Paul: No, no other shells were found yet. Flying works great, thanks!
@Nils: Thanks for that list. Think the last one crashed near Floridsdorf which is a part of Vienna. I believe that this (still) unknown twin engine was no heavy bomber. An it crashed not that close to Vienna.
Will try to save more parts soon...
Good night!
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 26.06.2007, 19:08
Here are some new pictures of parts I just found today.
The first few pictures show a part with a lot of rivets. If you look careful you notice that there are some rivets replaced by screws. It looks like this part was reinforced late on or modified (maybe to be a "Droop Snoot")
There was a stamping with "264" and "YN" or "VN" on top of it. I have no idea for which company this stands.
These two pictures show a sheet metal part. It is heavier than aluminium and has a structure in it. It is easy to bend, so I think of lead or something similar. I found it on a place where the plane first touched the ground. It made a big channel into the hill. I think this part came from somewhere on the outside of the plane. Think that lead or similar material was rather rare on planes. I have no idea what that could be.
The last picture shows the supercharger again. There was a badge on it with the stamping: "1165 5". Has someone an idea?
Best regrads,
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Paul - 26.06.2007, 21:34
Hallo Kurt,
Could it be AN 264 ?
Grüsse,
Paul
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Pathfinder - 26.06.2007, 22:16
Kurt,
photo #5 and #6 is a damaged batterie grid (inside of the batterie), found this type of parts on some crashsites.
The stamp is a inspection stamp, badly not in my database....
Regards
Nils
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Anonymous - 28.06.2007, 18:53
Kurtl wrote:
The first few pictures show a part with a lot of rivets. If you look careful you notice that there are some rivets replaced by screws. It looks like this part was reinforced late on or modified (maybe to be a "Droop Snoot")
Best regrads,
Kurtl
Kurtl, can you show the back of the screw - could this be a dzus-screw (fastener)?If yes so it's a regular one from a removable part.
see here: http://www.milspecproducts.com/photozlockb.htm
About the "droop snoots" with no armament I found the following:
Quote: By late February, 1944, Lockheed's facility at Langford Lodge in the UK rebuilt several P-38Js to the proposed configuration. This involved removing the armament, installing a transparent perspex nose with an optical flat panel, fitting a Norden gyro stabilised bombsight and adding lead ballast and armor plate about the bombardier's station. At least one aircraft is known to have had a flexibly mounted .50 cal gun in the perspex nose, a field retrofit.
I don't really believe that you found exactly one of this retrofited planes but who knows....
catch 22
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 29.06.2007, 08:52
Here is the backside of the screw. There is a hex nut.
@ Pathfinder & Co: Any idea where exactly the battery was located on the P38?
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Anonymous - 30.06.2007, 02:13
Kurtl wrote:
@ Pathfinder & Co: Any idea where exactly the battery was located on the P38?
Kurtl
Kurtl, the battery compartment is behind the left engine in the boom - s. scheme (yellow):
The turbo supercharger on your first photos is in front of it (blue).
And here a photo showing the same place but without the engine.
catch 22
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Anonymous - 30.06.2007, 04:10
And some more photos:
Once again the turbo supercharger:
And this detail
could be only this:
Gruesse
catch 22
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 30.06.2007, 13:20
Very interesting! Thanks a lot! - Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 05.07.2007, 13:38
Got some additional information about that crash: "On Sunday, January 21st, 1945 an american fighter pilot bailed out with his parachute. The burning aircraft crashed next to a farmhouse". This information is part of the archive of the local school house. Detailed information about the crashplace were included. So I'm sure that they are talking about this crash.
At www.armyairforces.com under "MACR db" I found three P38 that crashed on January 21st, 1944. One of them, S/N.: 44-24195 made an emergency landing on a frozen lake in Lower Austria. It broke through the ice later and was wrecked up after the war. One of the other two could be the plane we are looking for. It is S/N.: 42-67898 and 44-25039, both of 1st Fighter Group. MACR are 11538 and 11748. Can anyone tell me more of that? Any idea what missions were flown at January 21st, 1945?
Could be that the information about the two parachutes fits to another crash close to this one. So there is maybe just an ordenary P-38 and not a "Droop Snoot".
Regards,
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
AAIR - 27.07.2007, 19:37
Doing a quick read of these three pages it seems that everyone is leaning to P-38, and just to confirm it those part numbers [and inspection stamps (R170)] are indeed P-38. The parts numbers are not in my P-38H/J/L/F5B parts manual (the closest is 222828/222858 and 222343/222418) so it is likely a different P-38 model.
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 20.08.2007, 20:16
Was talking to an eyewitness today. He saw the plane some minutes before it crashed and the crash itself. He told me that the plane was circling for a while. After the pilot bailed out it crashed straigth into the mountain. The witness was sure that it was a BIPLANE!. Think that the P-38 was flying at "Messerflug" (one wing up to air the other one down to earth) short before it crashed.
I believe that both engines were not running at this time because plane might was hit by flak. Does anyone know if a gliding P-38 still makes some noise. The withness told me that the plane still was lound.
Thanks for the help!
Kurtl
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
AAIR - 02.01.2008, 19:32
Quote: I found three P38 that crashed on January 21st, 1944. One of them, S/N.: 44-24195 made an emergency landing on a frozen lake in Lower Austria. It broke through the ice later and was wrecked up after the war. One of the other two could be the plane we are looking for. It is S/N.: 42-67898 and 44-25039, both of 1st Fighter Group. MACR are 11538 and 11748. Can anyone tell me more of that?
MACR 11538 on P-38 42-67898 crashed in Northeastern Italy near 45 degrees 47 minutes north by 14 degrees 3 minutes east and was fatal. So I so not think your crash is this one.
MACR 11748 on P-38L 44-25039 crashed (was last seen flying) about 16 miles south of Prague-- is this close to your area??? The pilot bailed out and became a POW. This is close to the story you have heard from your research.
Re: UNKNOWN AMERICAN TWIN ENGINE
Kurtl - 07.01.2008, 20:48
Craig, thanks for your post.
You are right, it appears that Mr. Hutchison crashed on that place. It's MACR 11748 that reports about it. He survived and was brought to an army hospital at St.Pölten, Lower Austria.
Kurtl
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