Verfügbare Informationen zu "Towers"
Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: IMassAcolyte - Aray - tegeus-Cromis - nooK - Metal Sonic - Galefury - roxas_kh2 - Forbidden Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Balance Issues Antworten: 46 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Towers Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 7 Monaten, 14 Tagen, 23 Stunden, 58 Minuten
Alle Beiträge und Antworten zu "Towers"
Re: Towers
IMassAcolyte - 02.06.2006, 01:59Towers
Well i got bored today so i felt like playing a solo game of Samurai legends. after i leveled far enough i thought "suicide runs..." so i ran straight through all the towers into the main area near the town hall. The towers couldnt reach me and no one was there to stop me so i won the game in under 5 minutes :shock:
I suggest 2 things.
1) You should put STRONG towers near the main town hall. Stronger than the rest. not so strong that no one can win but strong so people dont suicide rush.
2) As i was playing i was think of peasants. I think peasants should be able to build towers at the cost of some honor points and a heap of gold. And if you can, make sure you have a system so there can only be so many towers. I suggest that towers can only be built where a DESTROYED one was previously. The game will go on longer and be much funner if you do this. But then theres always the threat that an enemy hero comes along and destroys it in the making. Is it possible to regain all the honor and all the money spent if a building is destroyed while being made? if so i think you should do that.
I also found that destroying towers is too easy during game play. In many situations towers are easily RUSHED by enemy hero tanks. Maybe you could buff them a little? A little more HP? Maybe 10-15 more attack points?
Thats all i got for now :wink:
Re: Towers
Aray - 02.06.2006, 02:23
Quote: You should put STRONG towers near the main town hall. Stronger than the rest. not so strong that no one can win but strong so people dont suicide rush. I would also like to suggest making these towers make splashdmg, since most likely there will be big groups of units attacking, and a simple arrow-tower just wouldn't be enough. And about the normal lanetowers, how about making the ones in front stronger, while making the ones in the back do more dmg, so that the tanks will have a bit of a hard time after all if they don't play careful.
Quote: The game will go on longer and be much funner if you do this. Seriously, the game does not have to go on any longer. This is mainly why I am getting tired of DotA; one game lasts WAY too long! And why would it be funnier really?..
Re: Towers
IMassAcolyte - 02.06.2006, 02:50
Quote: I would also like to suggest making these towers make splashdmg, since most likely there will be big groups of units attacking, and a simple arrow-tower just wouldn't be enough
Very true, very good idea.
Quote: And about the normal lanetowers, how about making the ones in front stronger, while making the ones in the back do more dmg, so that the tanks will have a bit of a hard time after all if they don't play careful.
Not so good. That is a good idea yes but kinda complicated. If the ones in back do more damage then they are obviously the target. people will go for those first then kill the others. I see your point but why not make everything simple and make them all the same? Look at the base towers what will you do with those? Make them tank or or damage towers? I think all should be the same.
Quote: Seriously, the game does not have to go on any longer. This is mainly why I am getting tired of DotA; one game lasts WAY too long! And why would it be funnier really?..
Not FUNNIER, funner. If the game lasts longer, the game is funner. Some people might want a challenge maybe. I understand dota is long and lame but im not saying make the game as long as dota. To my experience on SL, most game last about 30 - 45 minutes. If the towers are stronger the game might last maybe 50 minutes to an hour. That time can make a difference.
How long does a game of DotA last?
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 02.06.2006, 09:04
Quote: To my experience on SL, most game last about 30 - 45 minutes.
That's strange, because you and I have been in a lot of the same games, and they seemed to drag pretty fucking long to me. :P
-
I find towers are actually too hard to push, at least initially. DotA towers are much tougher, yes, but there's only one of them in one spot, whereas SL towers come in groups of four! The feeling that it is easy to push SL towers comes from a few things, I think:
1) The quality of play in SL games tends to be quite low due to its unfamiliarity and the fact that many people who would join an unfamiliar custom game are not experienced in AOS maps. People will often let you wail on their towers undisturbed; this is not an accurate reflection of the ease of pushing.
2) Towers don't heal, and most people do not buy peasants to repair. This means that even when towers are defended, it is a certainty that they will eventually fall from a slow process of attrition.
I suggest just making towers auto-heal at a low rate so you don't have to fumble around with peasants. Who needs so much bother?
Also, towers in the base should be stronger, as in DotA. This is because the base towers will be pushed later in the game than the forward towers, so they need to do more damage and have more hitpoints in order to be relevant to a defence.
Re: Towers
nooK - 02.06.2006, 13:40
Quote: 1) You should put STRONG towers near the main town hall. Stronger than the rest. not so strong that no one can win but strong so people dont suicide rush.
No if someone suicides, just kill him or repair with peasants. One player suiciding -> win for the other team.
Also I won´t make towers stranger, first all people said they are too strong? Now they are too weak? I think they are just fine.
Also I won´t add regeneration for the towers, this game requires skill to buy peasants at he rigth time, send them back at the right time, let them repair at the right time.
Also I wont add buildable towers. Why? The game would only last longer, and SL games already last long. That´s ok but making it even longer wouldn´t be good.
Also this requires skill to defend and repair your towers, they are very important for your team so take care of them.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 02.06.2006, 17:50
Keeping your towers healthy does take skill, but it is a very unfun sort of skill to exercise. I want to play Samurai Legends, not Tower-Repairing Peasant Legends.
Re: Towers
IMassAcolyte - 02.06.2006, 20:08
Quote: That's strange, because you and I have been in a lot of the same games, and they seemed to drag pretty fucking long to me.
You arent the only host that i play with :P
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 02.06.2006, 22:57
LOL, I must be the only host cursed with games that drag, then. :P
Re: Towers
Metal Sonic - 02.06.2006, 23:57
My games tend to drag on too, 1-2 hours sometimes :S Personally, I think the towers are all fine, you just need to be careful. I find them quite expendable though, usually if the towers of the centre lane are gone everything still holds up as normal for the most part.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 08:53
Yeah, good point. It's veeeeery different from the case of the side lanes. In fact there is no reason at all to push mid the way things are now.
Re: Towers
Metal Sonic - 03.06.2006, 13:53
Very true. I was playing a whiel ago and was apparently losing pretty badly, the enemy hero was pushing in the center lanes, and my bases towers we're starting to come down, then he asks me if I noticed my spawnies from the side lanes where attacking his town hall. A minute later the game was over :P
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 14:10
Exactly. Devoting manpower to pushing mid, unless you've already raxed one or more side lanes, is more or less a game-losing mistake at the moment. On the other hand, if you have raxed the side lanes, pushing mid is literally impossible to defend against. By the same token, counter-pushing is totally impossible.
I'd like to reiterate an earlier suggestion I made: that the spawning system be changed so that a raxed side lane still has some defenders. Basically, the town hall would spawn half the creeps for each lane (the Yari Ashigaru) while the Outposts and Dojos would spawn the other, stronger half (Archers and Yari Cavalry). This will make a counterpush feasible, though difficult.
(On a semi-related note, could you change it so the Outposts start to spawn creeps later than the Dojos? It is weird for creeps to be fighting in the side lanes before any hero could possibly get there.)
Re: Towers
Galefury - 05.06.2006, 11:46
My opinions:
Buildable towers = no, makes the game drag
Front towers tanks, back towers more damage = yes. The front towers get attacked by the spawns. Taking the back towers out with a mid-level hero group instead of concentrating on the front ones with help from the spawns would be a nice strategic choice IMO. Maybe add it, see how it works out, and then decide.
Towers that can attack people attacking the main base = yes. Makes it way too easy to main cheese if there are none.
Make side lane spawns come partially from main base = why not. Spawns are quite powerful even against lvl 20 heros, so it will be hard enough to take down an expo.
Removing peasants and giving towers regen = stupid. Half the fun of peasants is killing them, btw. Don't forget that.
Also another tower-related suggenstion from me: Move the Dojos a bit closer to the towers. They are too easy to backstab atm.
Also maybe make some difference between the side lanes. Like adding a merc shop to one and an item shop to the other one. That would also make up a bit for the long way to the secret shops from the side lanes.
To the people that say pushing mid is useless: pushing mid is good for exp. If you don't push mid early and the enemy does the enemy will outlevel you greatly. Taking towers down in mid, well yes, its pointless in midgame. Maybe put some bonus building behind them which can be destroyed to harm your enemies. Maybe a building with brilliance aura that adds mana regen to all heros of that team. It wouldn't be fatal to the team if it was destroyed, but it would give some sense to destroying mid towers, especially if it's a strong brilliance aura. You might have to adjust spell costs or mana amound of heros if you add it, though. The easiest way would probably be just lowering the amount of mana each point of intelligence gives slightly. If you add it, make it so heros have a bit more mana at their disposal than now while the building is standing, and significantly less than now if it is destroyed.
Re: Towers
Aray - 05.06.2006, 14:44
Quote: Front towers tanks, back towers more damage = yes. The front towers get attacked by the spawns. Taking the back towers out with a mid-level hero group instead of concentrating on the front ones with help from the spawns would be a nice strategic choice IMO. Maybe add it, see how it works out, and then decide. - Hehe, thanks for supporting my suggestion :) And I still stand by it. New ways of strategy will be supported, like this: You can take a risk and try take out the high-dmg towers in the back, but this means you are more exposed, you are further away from the other units, and if an enemy hero manages to trap you there between the towers, you're doomed. But if you do succeed, it'll be alot easier to take down the tanktowers because your units wont die so quickly. But it will still be hard, because these towers last some time, and this should give the enemy time to come and defend.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 05.06.2006, 15:31
Maybe give the back towers some splash damage. Make them shoot multiple arrows. Main arrow does as much damage as it does now, side arrows do smaller fixed damage (like Maiden in ToB version m). Lower HP.
Lower damage for front towers and give them more HP.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 05.06.2006, 17:41
Galefury: Quote: Also another tower-related suggenstion from me: Move the Dojos a bit closer to the towers. They are too easy to backstab atm.
Good idea.
Quote: Also maybe make some difference between the side lanes. Like adding a merc shop to one and an item shop to the other one. That would also make up a bit for the long way to the secret shops from the side lanes.
A small number of neutral creep camps, as discussed in another thread, would serve nicely to balance it up, I think.
As for it being a long way to the secret shops from the side range, I don't know if you've noticed, but one of the two secret shops is located in a side lane. :P
Quote: To the people that say pushing mid is useless: pushing mid is good for exp. If you don't push mid early and the enemy does the enemy will outlevel you greatly.
Bollocks. You push mid early; your opponents ignore you and instead push side. You kill four towers, they kill four towers and a rax. Who has more exp now? And who is missing a rax? Think.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 05.06.2006, 18:09
Well yeah, I forgot about that shop. Both secret shops are annoying to reach from the bottom lane, though.
Also you cant kill towers that early, and if there is a problem just move to the side lane. The point is dont try to kill towers in mid. Just put 1 hero per lane and 2 heros on one of the lanes. That way you get the most exp out of the spawns. And early game heros do just too little damage to kill a lot of towers. Just repair during breaks in their attacks.
Also I know that it might be a bit of a long way from the mid lanes to the side lanes to defend well, but I hope the new terrain will fix that.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 21:28
Quote: Also you cant kill towers that early, and if there is a problem just move to the side lane. The point is dont try to kill towers in mid. Just put 1 hero per lane and 2 heros on one of the lanes. That way you get the most exp out of the spawns. And early game heros do just too little damage to kill a lot of towers. Just repair during breaks in their attacks.
I was responding to the part where you said, 'To the people that say pushing mid is useless: pushing mid is good for exp. If you don't push mid early and the enemy does the enemy will outlevel you greatly.' Please explain to me how these two sentences make any sense if you are actually referring to a point in the game where pushing is impossible.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 07.06.2006, 00:38
Just get a mana pot and spam AOE nukes/heals if youre a pusher. If you aren't, tough luck.
I noticed that creep waves in SL have incredible momentum, though, often you really cant impact them at all unless youre at least level 10. And I mean impact them with a pushing hero, Warlord for example. I didn't try Yumi with traps and strafe yet, I guess that will be a bit more effective. Still not effective enough, though. This should be changed, to make early game more skill related and less "wait till youre leveled up, you cant do much anyway" related.
Oh, and btw, without an opponent enemy heros in mid will outlevel you for sure. The argument of send to mid or no exp stands, even if pushing is impossible. There are spawny kills, no matter if you can push. If no one is there to pick up the exp from them, the exp is wasted, leading to less total exp for the team.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 01:59
Quote: Just get a mana pot and spam AOE nukes/heals if youre a pusher. If you aren't, tough luck.
So you mean that when you said 'you cant kill towers that early', you actually meant 'you can kill towers that early if you buy pots and spam spells'. Dude, make up your f*ing mind.
Quote: I noticed that creep waves in SL have incredible momentum, though, often you really cant impact them at all unless youre at least level 10.
Wrong. All the AOE spells have an incredible effect on creep pushing. Try it and see.
Quote: Oh, and btw, without an opponent enemy heros in mid will outlevel you for sure. The argument of send to mid or no exp stands, even if pushing is impossible. There are spawny kills, no matter if you can push. If no one is there to pick up the exp from them, the exp is wasted, leading to less total exp for the team.
Do you live on another level of reality or something? No one has suggested not putting someone in mid in a fullhouse game, so I have no idea what provoked this totally unnecessary explanation. (Not putting someone in mid wastes exp? O RLY??)
None of which contradicts the fact that it is pointless to PUSH MID before both side lanes are down.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 07.06.2006, 02:42
I think we mean different things by pushing. I mean pushing your creeps into the enemy towers so the enemy doesn't get exp. You mean actually trying to destroy the towers. Which explains why we dont get what the other one is saying...
Btw, tower kills don't give exp in SL, right? I would be playing all my games based on a wrong assumption if they did. :(
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 05:34
Quote: I think we mean different things by pushing. I mean pushing your creeps into the enemy towers so the enemy doesn't get exp. You mean actually trying to destroy the towers. Which explains why we dont get what the other one is saying...
I am using the term 'push' in the sense universally accepted by seasoned AOS players. I cannot guess the providence of the sense in which you use it.
Also, it is nonsensical to say that causing your creeps to fight at the enemy's towers prevents the enemies from getting experience. They will get the experience from creep deaths anyway.
Quote: Btw, tower kills don't give exp in SL, right? I would be playing all my games based on a wrong assumption if they did.
They certainly do, though it is a small amount. Dojos, however, do not give any experience at all.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 07.06.2006, 10:15
With tower kills I mean towers killing units. Does that give exp to the team the towers belong to or not?
Re: Towers
nooK - 07.06.2006, 11:28
Just a short comment ;)
Code: Building Kills Grant Xp - False
Should I give the towers fire arrows? So th missiles can be seen more easily?
Quote: - Removed true sight from towers
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 17:08
Galefury: Quote: With tower kills I mean towers killing units. Does that give exp to the team the towers belong to or not?
Uh, yes.
nooK: Quote: Just a short comment
Code:
Building Kills Grant Xp - False
I fear you are mistaken. 8)
Quote: Should I give the towers fire arrows? So th missiles can be seen more easily?
It never occurred to me before, but yes, definitely!
Quote: Quote:
- Removed true sight from towers
Interesting. I wonder if it will work out. Guess I'll have to wait and see.
Re: Towers
nooK - 07.06.2006, 17:14
Don´t know how this happens, nevertheless it seems so small it hasn´t any effect I think.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 17:22
Like I said, the amount of exp given si really small. Nevertheless, it is there. :P
Re: Towers
nooK - 07.06.2006, 19:53
Quote: Interesting. I wonder if it will work out. Guess I'll have to wait and see.
What should be the problems? Magic Trap works better now and only the Ninja is affected by it -> Shadow.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 20:12
You're probably right. I forget that this is not the sort of game where someone can just pop up and kill you in 5 seconds flat. :P
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 11.06.2006, 14:29
Galefury, I owe you a thousand apologies. You were, in fact, correct:
Here we see the hero with 40 EXP. Note the nearly-dead enemy Yari Cavalry.
The Yari Cavalry has been killed by the tower, but the hero is still at 40 EXP.
Now an enemy Archer has been killed by the tower as well. Still no EXP gain.
Again, my apologies, Galefury. You were right on this point.
The question is, did you intend this, nooK? Is this what you meant by 'Building Kills Grant Xp - False'? If so, I appeal to you to change it. It is too random a penalty to be in the game.
Re: Towers
nooK - 11.06.2006, 14:33
No I was wrong there too, thought the wrong thing too. Will be changed.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 11.06.2006, 15:32
Great.
Re: Towers
roxas_kh2 - 13.06.2006, 12:17
REMINDER: this i the SL way of playing games. uing workers to repair. defending the towers, etc.
its like youre comparing it to dota, well its not
Re: Towers
roxas_kh2 - 13.06.2006, 12:22
Quote: - Removed true sight from towers yey, good idea, ninja's will now be more ninja-ish, but i think will be unbalanced, the ninja' will be able to pass the towers
Re: Towers
Galefury - 13.06.2006, 12:38
nooK wrote: No I was wrong there too, thought the wrong thing too. Will be changed.
:(
I like it much. It makes pushing well = denying exp. Which means you don't have to do silly stuff like killing your own units to prevent the enemy gaining exp. It's one of the points that make ToB good IMO.
There was a discussion about this on the ToB forums, when this was accidentally changed in N. Basically the point was that in dota, where you cant repair towers, damaging the towers is enough of a reward for pushing. In ToB however you can repair towers (and in SL too), which means slightly damaging towers early is quite useless if you cant actually take them down in one push. That in turn means that there needs to be another reward for good pushing: exp denial.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 13.06.2006, 19:39
Quote: Basically the point was that in dota, where you cant repair towers, damaging the towers is enough of a reward for pushing.
If by pushing you mean merely 'keeping your creep lines close to your opponent's tower, giving you opportunities to chip at that tower'--and from your later reference to 'slightly damaging towers early,' I think you must--then you are mistaken. The reward for that in DotA is getting ganked. :P
Quote: In ToB however you can repair towers (and in SL too), which means slightly damaging towers early is quite useless if you cant actually take them down in one push.
Sometimes I seem to be the only one who has not played ToB, so perhaps I am a little ignorant of the subtleties at play here, but I cannot agree with those points. In SL, at least, there is no need to be able to take a tower cluster down in one push; it is expected that persistent pushing of a lane will be needed. You grind them down and do your best to make it unsafe for your opponents to repair. Every bit of damage does count.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 13.06.2006, 21:18
I didn't mean attacking the towers yourself, just giving your creeps opportunities to do it, while keeping a reasonable distance. Of course that too can lead to getting ganked, but at least it helps with later pushing a bit, contrary to what it does in SL and ToB: just making it easier to gank you, without any reward at all.
About the continous pushing: Well, it's like that in ToB too, during midgame. Repeated pushing and falling back, while trying to discourage repairing, switching lanes with a few heros to try to catch it unguarded, that kind of stuff. At least until one team can kill a few heroes, which gives it a nice opportunity for large scale razing. But tower damage during early game is only effective against noob opponents that don't repair (except maybe in the middle lanes, which rarely are important and often don't get repaired). A good maiden (basically yumi without rain of arrows but with summons) can take towers down early even against opponents who are only slightly noobish, but that's it.
Also: play ToB. It's great. Just leave (before game start ^^) if all of the enemies seem to know each other, it usually means that you will get stomped because all of the noobs are on your side. Also don't take Warlock (hard to play effectively) Blood Mage (just too weak in general), Inquisitor (may seem very weak for a first-time player), Dark Ranger (just slightly modified ladder hero ==> boring) or Warden (far too important, your team would hate you) on your first game of it, though. All other heroes are pretty fine for first-time players I think.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 13.06.2006, 21:31
Galefury: Quote: I didn't mean attacking the towers yourself, just giving your creeps opportunities to do it, while keeping a reasonable distance.
Eh, okay. That's an even looser definition of 'pushing' than I expected, and one I find little reason to reward.
Quote: Of course that too can lead to getting ganked, but at least it helps with later pushing a bit, contrary to what it does in SL and ToB: just making it easier to gank you, without any reward at all.
The prospect of getting ganked in SL 0.7 is laughable.
1) Only a ninja will ever be able to pop up from behind you; your own towers prevent that.
2) Only two heroes do not have escape mechanisms. They are both ranged heroes (200 range is still range) and have the two highest Strength gains in the game.
3) Flasks.
4) Hero lethality sucks. Enough said.
Quote: About the continous pushing: Well, it's like that in ToB too, during midgame. Repeated pushing and falling back, while trying to discourage repairing, switching lanes with a few heros to try to catch it unguarded, that kind of stuff. At least until one team can kill a few heroes, which gives it a nice opportunity for large scale razing. But tower damage during early game is only effective against noob opponents that don't repair (except maybe in the middle lanes, which rarely are important and often don't get repaired).
Yes, okay. So tell me again why you should be rewarded for dealing insignificant damage to towers in the early game? I don't get it.
-
As for ToB, I have rarely seen games hosted on B.net before, and never one in my location. So it is all a bit moot.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 13.06.2006, 23:12
tegeus-Cromis wrote: Galefury: Quote: I didn't mean attacking the towers yourself, just giving your creeps opportunities to do it, while keeping a reasonable distance.
Eh, okay. That's an even looser definition of 'pushing' than I expected, and one I find little reason to reward.
Well, you managed to get your creeps all the way to the enemy towers. Giving that a reward makes early game much more interesting, because well, just standing in your lane trying to get kills and waiting to level up is kind of boring IMO. The possibility of actually not getting all of the exp from the spawn waves and getting underleveled - or making the enemy underleveled - adds a bit of spice to that boring phase.
Re: Towers
nooK - 13.06.2006, 23:32
Yes there are arguments for both sides of this...hm
ps: If you´re playing ToB and you see a pirate played by zoorrooo then RUN.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 14.06.2006, 10:26
Quote: Well, you managed to get your creeps all the way to the enemy towers.
Is that such a great thing? It probably just means you have an AOE skill and your opponent doesn't, tbh.
Quote: Giving that a reward makes early game much more interesting, because well, just standing in your lane trying to get kills and waiting to level up is kind of boring IMO.
I would much rather make harassing more practical (by upping hero damage and removing/reducing sidelane fountain regen) than give artificial 'rewards' for minor pushes.
Re: Towers
Galefury - 14.06.2006, 10:29
It may seem artificial when discussed like this, but it sure doesn't feel artificial when playing. Also AoE skills help, but you generally need skill too. Of course there are heros who are better at this than others, but a skilled player can still counter the pushing efforts of a hero that is better suited to pushing.
Re: Towers
nooK - 14.06.2006, 12:20
Yes with towers gaining exp, there will be even less hero kills and action, because you just have to wait at your towers, underleveling won´t be possible.
Re: Towers
tegeus-Cromis - 14.06.2006, 14:55
Well, I still disagree, but I will not argue further. After all, it already works like this in 0.7, and I frankly did not even notice it, so it can't be that bad.
Re: Towers
Forbidden - 11.09.2006, 23:11
How much armor do the towers have??? I find theyre kind of...weak. I know it's been discussed alot that they are too strong/too weak, but I seriously think theyre abit weak defensively. They deal ok damage but they take a little too heavy damage I'd say. The armor if I recall correctly is pretty low. Looking at tower armor in ToB and similar games its alot higher. Possibly raise it abit???
Re: Towers
nooK - 11.09.2006, 23:45
Yes they are relatively weak, but as their arent many tower damaging spells in SK, higher armor at towers would only make the game last even longer.
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