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Qualität des Beitrags: Beteiligte Poster: tegeus-Cromis - Kouenzan - nooK - Anonymous - Alucardio - Aray - Forbidden - Black_Mage - Skirn - Viziroth Forum: Samurai Legends Forenbeschreibung: Official forums aus dem Unterforum: Ideas Antworten: 34 Forum gestartet am: Mittwoch 06.10.2004 Sprache: englisch Link zum Originaltopic: Gameplay Suggestions Letzte Antwort: vor 17 Jahren, 7 Monaten, 28 Tagen, 16 Stunden, 34 Minuten
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Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 11.05.2006, 02:20Gameplay Suggestions
As I've said, I think Samurai Legends is a great map, but there are a bunch of things that make it much less enjoyable than it could be.
1) The consequences of 'raxing'
Problem: As it is now, each lane has a single spawn point for creeps, and once that building is destroyed, no more creeps will spawn in that lane, which makes counter-pushing that lane impossible. Someone will have to babysit that lane full-time from then on, just to prevent the base towers (and thus further raxes) from falling. Even in a 5v5, having two lanes raxed can't really be recovered from, as only three heroes will be available to push vs the five heroes who will be able to defend against the push. Basically, there is no such thing as a comeback in Samurai Legends, and that sucks.
(Yes, you could of course purchase your own personal army and use that, but it would be absurdly expensive, and in such a desparate situation you are not likely to have large reserves of cash.)
Suggestion: Have the Town Hall spawn creeps for all the lanes, but only half of the creeps; the rest will spawn from the Dojos and Outposts and join them along the way. This means that by raxing, you halve the number of creep defenders in that lane and make it such that if unhindered, your creeps will push, while allowing the possibility of the other team pushing back and returning the favour.
2) Slow pace of gameplay
Problem: I'm sorry to say that it can get a bit boring sometimes. :oops: There are a few factors at work here:
a. The very low damage : survivability ratio. Your heroes basically have the starting and ending HPs of DotA heroes, but the damage output of ladder heroes and skillsets that would make Houdini proud. The result is that unless there are extreme noobs in the game who have never played any AOS before, 15 or even 20 minutes can pass without a single hero falling!
b. Little interaction in the lanes. Part of this is due to what I mention above, which makes sane players question the usefulness of harassing and often causes yhem to opt to just farm quietly instead. Another part is due to the lane set-up itself, which has three lanes soloing and only one lane with two people sharing it. This means most people will get to exercise zero teamwork until level 10 and beyond, and also means there's little risk until then, since none of the heroes, to my knowledge, can reliably pull off solo kills on even half-health opponents. Low nuke damage and long cool-downs prevent it.
c. Fountain trips are too convenient. The center lanes get a free TP back to their lanes and the side lanes need only retreat to their towers to heal. This means no one need ever stay in a lane with orange health, which in turn means no one need ever die before lvl 10.
Solution: a. Change up the skillsets a bit (more on this on another thread) and increase the base damage, so players can start battling each other earlier.
b. Alter the lane structure a little. Just having 3 lanes like any other AOS would be a bit boring too, of course; what I suggest is having the two center lanes converge at the river (so that the final shape would be an elongated X linking the two bases). I think this would add a truly interesting dynamic to the early-mid game--think of the possibilities. For instance, if your neighbour is having trouble and his opponent is pushing, you could actually help to defend without leaving your lane: attack the creeps aggressively and your creeps will push across the river, cutting off the flow of enemy creeps to your neighbour's lane and maybe even cutting off the hero, allowing the two of you to try for a kill. Also, team battles could start becoming a reality much earlier in the game, as you could put, say, two heroes in the left center lane and one in the right center lane, allowing for three man fights at the river without sacrificing experience of farming. Wouldn't that be more exciting than farming all by yourself for 20 minutes?
c. Remove the fountains from the side lanes and instead have the Outposts dual-task as shops selling only health potions and mana potions. This way damage taken would actually matter.
3) Rather impractical terrain
Problem: a. Huge masses of trees clog up the space in between the lanes. You simply can't see jack while you're travelling through them, not even enough to see where the path through it is and where it exits, and it is just irritating.
b. Many characters have an ability that allows them to move through terrain, and those that do not can buy Latona for this purpose. However, you can't really use this stuff to its full potential, as many of the boundaries that are of tactical significance are impossible to cross in a reasonable number of uses of these skills. It isn't a flaw per se, but it is a waste.
Solution: a. Just thin it out a bit so you can see what's there. It would be a really cool and flavourful setting for chases and fights, but as it is now the only thing you can do in such an encounter is to attack ground and hope for the best. Some clumps of thick vegetation could be kept for ambushing/escaping purposes.
b. Cut down on some of the ridges etc. for easier movement. Ambushing and clever use of terrain and blinks add to the excitement; encourage it!
4) Basic in-game commands are lacking
Problem: a. An -allrandom option for the host would be very welcome, especially since the majority of players will be new to the game.
b. Scoreboard: where is it? This is a samurai game; people want to keep track of how many they've killed!
c. Your hero's movespeed is very important information, as is the match-up! Just because it's in DotA doesn't mean it's bad. :P
Solution: a. Add an -allrandom command.
b. Add a scoreboard, command activated or there by default. I would suggest tracking hero kills, tower kills, creep kills (by another name--warriors?) and total honour earned.
c. Add a -movespeed command and a -matchup command.
-
That's it for now. Hope you'll take these suggestions in the spirit they're offered in: as wished-for improvements (in my view) to an already enjoyable game, one that I hope will go far. :)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Kouenzan - 11.05.2006, 10:33
nice suggestions you have there :D
i also suggest adding some neutral camps
like making some mountain bandits, pirates and many more
uhh for example, there's an event, signalling all the players (enemy or ally) that there is a mountain bandits in that specific area in the map. so they will come in that area, competing to beat the bandits for a certain reward, like honors. :)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 11.05.2006, 10:37
Oh long post :) First I´d like to thank you for analysing this map and trying to improve it. I will comment your suggestions (and don´flame my English I`m from Germany ;) )
Quote: 1) The consequences of 'raxing'
Problem: As it is now, each lane has a single spawn point for creeps, and once that building is destroyed, no more creeps will spawn in that lane, which makes counter-pushing that lane impossible. Someone will have to babysit that lane full-time from then on, just to prevent the base towers (and thus further raxes) from falling. Even in a 5v5, having two lanes raxed can't really be recovered from, as only three heroes will be available to push vs the five heroes who will be able to defend against the push. Basically, there is no such thing as a comeback in Samurai Legends, and that sucks.
(Yes, you could of course purchase your own personal army and use that, but it would be absurdly expensive, and in such a desparate situation you are not likely to have large reserves of cash.)
Suggestion: Have the Town Hall spawn creeps for all the lanes, but only half of the creeps; the rest will spawn from the Dojos and Outposts and join them along the way. This means that by raxing, you halve the number of creep defenders in that lane and make it such that if unhindered, your creeps will push, while allowing the possibility of the other team pushing back and returning the favour.
Not sure about this. Destroying a Outpost is a huge deal and was meant to nearly "end" the game (only way to comeback is killing the other outpost). Else games will last forever and SL is already a long game I think.
Quote: 2) Slow pace of gameplay
Problem: I'm sorry to say that it can get a bit boring sometimes. There are a few factors at work here:
a. The very low damage : survivability ratio. Your heroes basically have the starting and ending HPs of DotA heroes, but the damage output of ladder heroes and skillsets that would make Houdini proud. The result is that unless there are extreme noobs in the game who have never played any AOS before, 15 or even 20 minutes can pass without a single hero falling!
b. Little interaction in the lanes. Part of this is due to what I mention above, which makes sane players question the usefulness of harassing and often causes yhem to opt to just farm quietly instead. Another part is due to the lane set-up itself, which has three lanes soloing and only one lane with two people sharing it. This means most people will get to exercise zero teamwork until level 10 and beyond, and also means there's little risk until then, since none of the heroes, to my knowledge, can reliably pull off solo kills on even half-health opponents. Low nuke damage and long cool-downs prevent it.
c. Fountain trips are too convenient. The center lanes get a free TP back to their lanes and the side lanes need only retreat to their towers to heal. This means no one need ever stay in a lane with orange health, which in turn means no one need ever die before lvl 10.
Solution: a. Change up the skillsets a bit (more on this on another thread) and increase the base damage, so players can start battling each other earlier.
b. Alter the lane structure a little. Just having 3 lanes like any other AOS would be a bit boring too, of course; what I suggest is having the two center lanes converge at the river (so that the final shape would be an elongated X linking the two bases). I think this would add a truly interesting dynamic to the early-mid game--think of the possibilities. For instance, if your neighbour is having trouble and his opponent is pushing, you could actually help to defend without leaving your lane: attack the creeps aggressively and your creeps will push across the river, cutting off the flow of enemy creeps to your neighbour's lane and maybe even cutting off the hero, allowing the two of you to try for a kill. Also, team battles could start becoming a reality much earlier in the game, as you could put, say, two heroes in the left center lane and one in the right center lane, allowing for three man fights at the river without sacrificing experience of farming. Wouldn't that be more exciting than farming all by yourself for 20 minutes?
c. Remove the fountains from the side lanes and instead have the Outposts dual-task as shops selling only health potions and mana potions. This way damage taken would actually matter.
Ah you´re right. I will increase the damage outpout in the next version and maybe the terrain will be changed too (have to contact my terrainer). Lanes will be more open which leaves more space for tactics.
Hope I can give you more info on this soon.
Quote: 3) Rather impractical terrain
Problem: a. Huge masses of trees clog up the space in between the lanes. You simply can't see jack while you're travelling through them, not even enough to see where the path through it is and where it exits, and it is just irritating.
b. Many characters have an ability that allows them to move through terrain, and those that do not can buy Latona for this purpose. However, you can't really use this stuff to its full potential, as many of the boundaries that are of tactical significance are impossible to cross in a reasonable number of uses of these skills. It isn't a flaw per se, but it is a waste.
Solution: a. Just thin it out a bit so you can see what's there. It would be a really cool and flavourful setting for chases and fights, but as it is now the only thing you can do in such an encounter is to attack ground and hope for the best. Some clumps of thick vegetation could be kept for ambushing/escaping purposes.
b. Cut down on some of the ridges etc. for easier movement. Ambushing and clever use of terrain and blinks add to the excitement; encourage it!
Like already above said the terrain will be changed to be more tactical. Thanks for your suggestions on this :)
Quote: 4) Basic in-game commands are lacking
Problem: a. An -allrandom option for the host would be very welcome, especially since the majority of players will be new to the game.
b. Scoreboard: where is it? This is a samurai game; people want to keep track of how many they've killed!
c. Your hero's movespeed is very important information, as is the match-up! Just because it's in DotA doesn't mean it's bad.
Solution: a. Add an -allrandom command.
b. Add a scoreboard, command activated or there by default. I would suggest tracking hero kills, tower kills, creep kills (by another name--warriors?) and total honour earned.
c. Add a -movespeed command and a -matchup command.
Allrandom is already in the game just forgot to state it anywhere. Just use the "Random Hero" option when creating the game.
Scoreboard, will think about that ;)
Matchup is quite useless I think, because you already see which hero everybody chooses. Movement speed command is quite useful you´re right, I will implent that.
Quote: That's it for now. Hope you'll take these suggestions in the spirit they're offered in: as wished-for improvements (in my view) to an already enjoyable game, one that I hope will go far.
Yes, thanks again for spending so much time writing all this and coming up with the suggestions, I really appreciate this. :D
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 12.05.2006, 05:19
Quote: First I´d like to thank you for analysing this map and trying to improve it. I will comment your suggestions (and don´flame my English I`m from Germany
You're welcome, and dude, your English is way more presentable than that of 90% of Americans I see on forums, let alone my own countrymen (I'm from Singapore). :roll:
Incidentally, if you could use someone to proofread in-game text (tooltips and such) for typos, grammar, punctuation and so on, I'd be happy to help. I have noticed a few and intend to post/PM you a list soon.
Edit: Actually not so soon! I'm going on an overseas exercise (am on the last lap of my national service at the moment) tomorrow, so it's more like 'I have noticed a few and intend to post/PM you a list in a month's time.' Bah!
Quote: Not sure about this. Destroying a Outpost is a huge deal and was meant to nearly "end" the game (only way to comeback is killing the other outpost). Else games will last forever and SL is already a long game I think.
It does "end" the game, but the problem is it doesn't really end the game. With their outposts down, the losing team can still defend their inner base almost indefinitely, but they can't push back. Result: 30 minutes or more of pointless dragging, or everyone on the losing team leaving once the second Outpost (or even the first) is down. Not too fun either way. In this respect DotA is superior: raxing two lanes guarantees victory if you play it smart from then on, but the other team knows that if they pull off an excellent result like clearing your entire team during one of your pushes, they still have a chance to push back and equalise. It's what makes a game exciting in higher level play (disclaimer: which I have only witnessed, not participated in :P). Yet DotA games do not last excessively long, except when players are of a low standard and prefer to delay and delay, farming up all the shiny items they like rather than co-operating to finish of a weakened opposing side.
If SL games last too long, you should find the reason for that and correct it. (I think the reason for this is the same reason why gameplay can be boring at times: hard to kill heroes, low damage, easy escape. It makes for bad pushing) The possibility of turnaround is, I feel, an essential part of any team game with long-lasting appeal, and should not be sacrificed in favour of a shorter game time.
Quote: Ah you´re right. I will increase the damage outpout in the next version and maybe the terrain will be changed too (have to contact my terrainer). Lanes will be more open which leaves more space for tactics.
Hope I can give you more info on this soon.
Awesome.
Quote: Allrandom is already in the game just forgot to state it anywhere. Just use the "Random Hero" option when creating the game.
Oh, right! I am too used to all the options for custom games being alterable in-game.
If it's not too troublesome, though, maybe you could make it possible for the host to activate all random mode once inside the game, as it is usual for custom maps. Perhaps the host could be allowed to type during the intro screen, so he can do this before anyone selects a hero. If it's too much of a bother, fair enough. :)
Quote: Scoreboard, will think about that
I'm not sure what the wink indicates. :P May I just ask what your reasons were for leaving it out in the first place?
Quote: Matchup is quite useless I think, because you already see which hero everybody chooses.
It's useful because sometimes someone from the other team leaves and you want to know who it was.
Quote: Movement speed command is quite useful you´re right, I will implent that.
Great.
Quote: Yes, thanks again for spending so much time writing all this and coming up with the suggestions, I really appreciate this.
Thank you for a game fun enough to make me waste--uh, spend--all this time thinking about it. :wink:
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 12.05.2006, 20:35
Did the -ms thing today.
I didn´t want a scoreboard because people then only look for stats and don`t teamwork :?
Good luck and have fun at your overseas exercises ;)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Anonymous - 22.05.2006, 05:42
I agree that a scoreboard make people forgot about the teamwork... I've noticed this a lot of times while playing (or observing) Counter Strike matches (long ago, I'm far from that trash now) and Dota as well. Showing your K/D, as it is, may be enough.
What I really miss is some sort of "Short Mode"... I always play Dota (or any other custom map that is hero based, when available) with that... in SL, it could reduce the hit points (by 50%) of the towers... and of course, increase the experience gain, and gold gain per tick as well.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Alucardio - 25.05.2006, 08:26
hi man, hope i'm not too late to the conversation :D
well, mi thoughs about the map, and my friend, is that it has great potential.. i'm sure that it will just get better and better with each version... now, for my suggestions..
1)i totally agree that the game is just tooooooooo long.. i think that this is because heroes are too weak, they need to be stronger in order to kill creeps faster, and towers as well...
2)the map is a little to big, i dont know if its just me, but i feel it takes forever to go around the map, let alone go back for healing... i know there is a teleporter, but i feel it would be better to reduce the overall size
3)heroes need more strategic items.. i think the map needs items with speciall abilities, more than just adding damage or stats... specially inteligence items, because the "ultimate" intelligence item would be that sword (cant recall the name) with the blink abilty :S i think this is key in order to make this map a good one in the long term, because players like to test out different combinations of items, let alone, the order to combine them..
well, this is it for now, hope it helps any of this ideas :)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Alucardio - 25.05.2006, 08:30
Anonymous wrote: I agree that a scoreboard make people forgot about the teamwork... I've noticed this a lot of times while playing (or observing) Counter Strike matches (long ago, I'm far from that trash now) and Dota as well. Showing your K/D, as it is, may be enough.
What I really miss is some sort of "Short Mode"... I always play Dota (or any other custom map that is hero based, when available) with that... in SL, it could reduce the hit points (by 50%) of the towers... and of course, increase the experience gain, and gold gain per tick as well.
i second these 2 ideas... scoreboard or not, isnt going to teach some players to play some teamwork... they just are...
and the short mode is a must have for this kind of map, because its too long..
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Kouenzan - 25.05.2006, 11:04
Quote: 1)i totally agree that the game is just tooooooooo long.. i think that this is because heroes are too weak, they need to be stronger in order to kill creeps faster, and towers as well...
nook is doing this right now
Quote: 2)the map is a little to big, i dont know if its just me, but i feel it takes forever to go around the map, let alone go back for healing... i know there is a teleporter, but i feel it would be better to reduce the overall size
this will be a lot of terraining work. buffing movespeed will do :P
Quote: 3)heroes need more strategic items.. i think the map needs items with speciall abilities, more than just adding damage or stats... specially inteligence items, because the "ultimate" intelligence item would be that sword (cant recall the name) with the blink abilty :S i think this is key in order to make this map a good one in the long term, because players like to test out different combinations of items, let alone, the order to combine them..
yep, but nook want this game a non-item-dependant game. but he's going to add lots of items in the next version and you can make your idea :)
also nook, are there new shrines coming out?? :)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 25.05.2006, 11:23
Yes there will be an elite archer shrine so you can siege towers better.
But first I have to get the assistance system to work.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 27.05.2006, 23:30
If you can get the assistance system to work, and include a tally of assists and tower kills alongside the hero kills, I think a scoreboard would actually encourage teamwork.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 27.05.2006, 23:51
A couple more, one pasted from a post on another thread.
The ninja problem
Much as it pains me to say it, have you considered removing the non-hero ninja from the game? The Shrine of Night spawns have been totally eclipsed by Shrine of Strength cavalry (both mathcraft and in-game experience attest to this), and the hireable ninja make inferior chickens and are too expensive en-masse to use for sneak attacks or whatever--especially as none of the heroes have long-term invisibilty, and so cannot realistically accompany the ninja for such an attack. This would allow you to take out the non-hero ninja model entirely, saving space.
Frankly, it's the most boring model in the map anyway, and having ninja spawn with the foot soldiers and hurl themselves futilely against the enemy towers has never made much sense to me. Hero ninja are one thing, but masses of ninja fighting on the battlefield? Eh.
Something of an off-the-wall idea to 'replace' hireable ninja: instead of spawning ninja, give the Shrine of Night a (no cost, high cooldown) skill with unlimited range that causes a ninja (or a few ninja) to appear and attack the target unit for a few seconds, then disappear. I think this would make things quite interesting, and capture the ninja flavour better. You wouldn't need the ninja model for this as you could just use blacked out (like the way the Shinobi's image appears to the enemy) versions of the ninja hero.
Leavers
Increasing gold and experience gain just does not do very much to balance the loss of a hero, especially in the mid to late game. At least drop his items and distribute his resources. Further, having the hero remain in the game, but uncontrollable by any player is clumsy and infuriating for the team with the leavers--they're placed too far back to really help in defence, but far enough in front that your opponents can piss you off dragging the game by not finishing you off and instead killing the leaver hero(es) again and again. If you're not going to give the remaining players control, why not just stop the hero from respawning? You could either have the items drop or have them autosold and the resources distributed to the team. Items are not the lifeblood of SL, so I don't think this would have so huge an effect that it would turn a loss into a gain; it would just ease the pain a little.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 28.05.2006, 16:39
The ninja makes about 100kb and I think it`s worth a merc and spawn unit. You´re right on the Shrine of Night it`s too weak, I will give the ninjas some special ability.
For the leaver thing: Yes in the next version all items will be dropped and the leaver`s gold splitted. Don´t know if I should remove the hero entirely then or give allies control over him.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 28.05.2006, 18:23
If it's that small, I guess it's worth it. I'll be happy to see a buff to ninja; it is a pity to have them in the game and be unable to use them for anything much. :P
In the absence of compelling reasons to remove the hero, I'd suggest giving the leaver's allies control. The idea is to minimise the disruption caused by leavers, after all; giving control helps to do that.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 28.05.2006, 23:57
Yes you can also suggest ideas to buff the spawned ninjas.
Quote: In the absence of compelling reasons to remove the hero, I'd suggest giving the leaver's allies control. The idea is to minimise the disruption caused by leavers, after all; giving control helps to do that.
As you wish ;)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Kouenzan - 29.05.2006, 10:23
for the spawned unit, just like cromis said
Quote: Something of an off-the-wall idea to 'replace' hireable ninja: instead of spawning ninja, give the Shrine of Night a (no cost, high cooldown) skill with unlimited range that causes a ninja (or a few ninja) to appear and attack the target unit for a few seconds, then disappear. I think this would make things quite interesting, and capture the ninja flavour better. You wouldn't need the ninja model for this as you could just use blacked out (like the way the Shinobi's image appears to the enemy) versions of the ninja hero.
for the ninja merc, no item slot but permanent invisibility and has a 100+ backstab damage. the backstab damage can be upgraded at secret upgraders :P
also no item slot on mercs :P except for the peasant, 6 itemslots :) that's why they are peasant :)[/quote]
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 21:21
Earlier I said that the bonus to gold/experience gain when a player leaves had too little effect on the game when it occurs in the mid to late game, but I did not mention that it has too much of an effect on the game if the leaving occurs early on. 30% is a lot, so much so that if the game started as a 5v5 and dropped to a 5v3, the three are probably going to win. . . . I have received so much bitching over this issue.
The extra gold gain is not a huge problem, I think, but the exp gain certainly is. I suggest it be removed, especially since players will have access to leavers' items and the leaver himself in the next version.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 03.06.2006, 21:52
Win for the 3 against 5? Can´t believe this, 30% aren´t so much, in my opinion the 5 were total n00bs :P Never heard of teamplay?
But I will check this maybe it´s really too much, so no insults ;)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 03.06.2006, 22:26
I don't know how the exp bonus stacks for additional leavers, but it certainly did seem to me (as one of three) that I was gaining levels awfully fast. There's no way two people in a lane can push against one person who is gaining levels at that speed (all the more so because he isn't sharing experience), and while the 3-man team will have to leave a lane empty, so long as it is a mid lane, it will be fine. The 3-man team will be much more powerful individually, and can do a side lane push (starting with 2 heroes, the third hero TPing in at the crucial moment, so as not to leave the other side lane undefended). From that moment on, the other team is screwed, as there will effectively only be three useable lanes, which the 3-man team can defend with ease.
I did not save the replay for that game, unfortunately, but I think I have one that illustrates this issue to a lesser degree. I'll try to find it.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 03.06.2006, 22:32
Yes the leaver bonusses stack.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Aray - 03.06.2006, 23:59
What if instead of getting leaver, the players could get some kind of special permanent legend? ;) Like, if that healer-hero dies, then a shared legend arrives, with some similar spells for the party to use. This would fix the so troublesome problem in DotA with noobs sending the leavers to their death or stealing xp from the people who need it etc... Many limitations would have to be set of course, in order for this to work. Like, the legend has to be within a certain radius of a teammate to cast spells. Can't have an invulnerable fowl running about teasing the enemies ;) Well, it might not be a good idea to do it exactly like this, but maybe it can lead to some new and better ideas =)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 04.06.2006, 12:11
Please no. It is just too interesting an idea, IMHO. I do not want to find myself thinking, 'Damn, when is someone going to leave? I want to use the special legend already!'
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Aray - 04.06.2006, 14:13
Haha! Well, I still think that something else should happen other than just getting control of the leaver... Something a bit more user-friendly maybe?
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 04.06.2006, 14:16
User-friendly = item-drop, remove the leaver, leaver's gold income divided among his remaining teammates. But I doubt that's what you're thinking of. :P
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Aray - 04.06.2006, 14:21
hehe, not exactly like that, no :P This is the reason why I made that last idea: In a team, everyone has their own special role. And this decides wether the team does wel or not. If suddenly one of these crucial pieces of tf the team should disappear, then there's should be something to compensate with this, by in some way keeping the leaver's advantages. How this should be done, I do not know... I just find it too boring to just get the leavers gold and be done with it, and I find it too risky to just leave control of the leaver, since some teams can be so unlucky that they have noone who's especially good at controlling multiple units, and therefor ends up being owned... Brainstorming anyone? :D
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 06.06.2006, 21:05
You seem to be looking for some way to allow the game to continue on as if nothing happened. That is simply not possible. The very best you can come to that is ditrobuting resources and giving control, as that allows the remaining players to make up for the loss of a player with their own skill at micro, if it is sufficient. End of story as far as I'm concerned.
-
A new, relatively minor observation: for some reason or other, the order in which newly spawned creeps arrive at the battlefiend is very messy. I believe the intention was to have the cavalry in front, followed by the spearmen and finally the archer(s), but this does not usually occur. This is of more significant effect when the archer ends up in front.
Of course, if you follow my suggestion to have the spearmen spawn from the Town Hall and the archers and cavalry spawn from the Dojos/Outposts, the situation will be different. Regardless, it's worth looking into.
On a somewhat related note, the collision sizes for the creeps seem awfully big. They seem to get in the way more than is necessary. Perhaps you could reduce their collision size somewhat?
Lastly, the cavalry are melee range despite using the same weapons as the spearmen. Surely this is an oversight.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 07.06.2006, 14:18
Quote: A new, relatively minor observation: for some reason or other, the order in which newly spawned creeps arrive at the battlefiend is very messy. I believe the intention was to have the cavalry in front, followed by the spearmen and finally the archer(s), but this does not usually occur. This is of more significant effect when the archer ends up in front.
Yees :?
Quote: On a somewhat related note, the collision sizes for the creeps seem awfully big. They seem to get in the way more than is necessary. Perhaps you could reduce their collision size somewhat?
Ashigaru has footman collision, archers ne archer collision, Cavalry knight collsion, should be fine.
Quote: Lastly, the cavalry are melee range despite using the same weapons as the spearmen. Surely this is an oversight.
Ashi 150, cavalry 110, thought they were fine.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
tegeus-Cromis - 07.06.2006, 17:00
Quote: Ashigaru has footman collision, archers ne archer collision, Cavalry knight collsion, should be fine.
Ah, okay. I don't know why they seemed big to me, then.
Quote: Ashi 150, cavalry 110, thought they were fine.
It doesn't make much difference to gameplay, certainly. Their reach (attack animation-wise) just seem to merit the 150 range.
As I said, this is all minor stuff. I just thought I might as well mention it in passing since I was talking about the creep order problem (which actually is somewhat significant).
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Forbidden - 07.06.2006, 18:32
I cant remember if SL has a running clock (day changing to night) or not, but anyway maybe the stealth characters, like Ninja, Shinobi and Kunoichi could have some kind of advantages to their stealth skills at night? And maybe the night could be made more obvious, like it really gets dark and fireflies fly around or whatever. Something like that.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Black_Mage - 03.08.2006, 16:50
Yea u must change that we arent interested if its day or night u must improve the stealth skills at night , maybe some ultimate at night?? U figure it out :)
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Skirn - 09.08.2006, 20:58
Ooorrrr you can just hire the regular Ninjas and use their hide skill at night to be deadly and not worry about regular heroes getting advantages (Believe me, even good players get killed by a good Ninja gank.) After all, if some got advantages at night, wouldn't it be fair to give other advantages at daylight? It's to much work for something that really doesn't matter in the end.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 09.08.2006, 21:29
Quote: Ooorrrr you can just hire the regular Ninjas and use their hide skill at night to be deadly and not worry about regular heroes getting advantages (Believe me, even good players get killed by a good Ninja gank.) After all, if some got advantages at night, wouldn't it be fair to give other advantages at daylight? It's to much work for something that really doesn't matter in the end.
Exactly my point.
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
Viziroth - 17.08.2006, 16:06
I'm sorry if this is off the current topic of discussion, lol. BUT! I just read the first few posts and I'd like to state that if the tactics are right a skilled player can actually take out a lane unassisted by allied creeps. A storry of such is I was playing a 4v4 game. Which became a 2v3 o.O so me and my remaing ally were facing 3 opponents who took out both of our outposts. While my partner defended the base I would go down each defeated lane, the first one I used merly 2assassins and 3archers(I was the yumi samurai) and i took down the remaining tower and the outpost. Then using my sol surviving archer I went down the other lane taking out the 2 towers and outpost which evened it up. We ended up winning(those solo lane runs got me up to lv 20 while everyone else was still level 15 and also gave me mad gold for items.) SO killing a rax does not end the game =P lol...but yeah the game DID LAST 2HOURS AND SOME MINUTES lol but it was worth it for one hell of a game.
The ONLY problem I have with this game is the regen rate at the outpost fountains. It is possible for a hero to stand there with litereally a screen of creeps and 3heros on them and hardley get scratched. I dunno I saw many games won because heros just camped the fountains with archer mercs and themselves.
Personally I have no problems getting around the map, and no problem getting kills, I average bout 7/4. But that's just me...and maybe cuz i play like 2/3 times a day lol. Oh btw a great anti-melee strat with the yumi is to use the strafe skill as a sorta shot-gun tech, since there is no limit to the number of arrows that hit, you can deal a good 1/3 of a life bar. Also, those of you complaining about the low damage, Do you not get items? the poison sword and jade blade are all you need to be a 1337 killing machine! and as for getting around the map, skywalker make you basically teleport.
all I have to say is Nook keep up the good work this is an amazing map and I can't wait to see it pass version 1.0 xD
Re: Gameplay Suggestions
nooK - 17.08.2006, 16:41
Quote: I'm sorry if this is off the current topic of discussion, lol. BUT! I just read the first few posts and I'd like to state that if the tactics are right a skilled player can actually take out a lane unassisted by allied creeps. A storry of such is I was playing a 4v4 game. Which became a 2v3 o.O so me and my remaing ally were facing 3 opponents who took out both of our outposts. While my partner defended the base I would go down each defeated lane, the first one I used merly 2assassins and 3archers(I was the yumi samurai) and i took down the remaining tower and the outpost. Then using my sol surviving archer I went down the other lane taking out the 2 towers and outpost which evened it up. We ended up winning(those solo lane runs got me up to lv 20 while everyone else was still level 15 and also gave me mad gold for items.) SO killing a rax does not end the game =P lol...but yeah the game DID LAST 2HOURS AND SOME MINUTES lol but it was worth it for one hell of a game.
Yes, Yumi = queen of siege :)
Quote: The ONLY problem I have with this game is the regen rate at the outpost fountains. It is possible for a hero to stand there with litereally a screen of creeps and 3heros on them and hardley get scratched. I dunno I saw many games won because heros just camped the fountains with archer mercs and themselves.
Yes this is true. The regen will be decreased next version.
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